Interesting discussion with Don Higgins on the Land Podcast

[Wind Gypsy]

Is keeping people out of the woods what we are going for? Maybe that standard should go to compound hunters and the same complaint comes from the Recurve hunters?

Yes. Limiting the amount of pressure in the woods contributes to higher quality of hunting. An argument could be made that restricting compound season is in fact a way that could be done. However, compounds have been the norm for what 30 years? You've got 100's of thousands of people who have invested and planned around that. That's not the case with crossbows where they are a gateway to allowing people to capitalize on seasons designed around limited #s of vertical bow shooters.

The guy has no arms, if you think that is meaningless then we probably cant have an adult conversation about this. BTW you conveniently leave out the older generation that can't pull back a bow like my stepfather I used as an example, as well as people like myself with multipal shoulder surgeries. I still hunt with a bow, but don't practice as much because pain is a real thing for some of us.

It's not meaningless that someone can do that, it's quite impressive and inspirational. It's meaningless in this argument because it's whataboutism and has ZERO bearing on whether or not legalizing crossbows impacts the quality of hunting. If we must get into whataboutism than it's an acknowledgement we cant argue a point based on it's merits. I haven't addressed seniors or people with physical limitations because those people have long been able to use crossbows in archery season already in the states i'm familiar with and I like it that way. My stepdad who has had multiple shoulder surgeries hunts with a crossbow with a certification from his dr.

Our muzzleloader seasons is the last hunting season of the year here in NY and it is 10 days long, is it where you live also? Do you think it is fair to primitive hunters that they hunt with an inferior weapon after the orange army has invaded the woods for a month with rifles and shotguns?

It's about the same here and frankly considering it "primative weapon" season with our regulations is a joke (scopes, primers, smokeless powder allowed). I look at muzzle loader season much like archery - it was an additional opportunity added to the season and I don't feel the need to make it any easier than it already is. A general feeling I have is this - we have always had a rifle season, then we added archery season with no further restrictions to rifle season, then we added muzzle loader seasons with often no further restrictions to archery or rifle season, now crossbows, and on top of that information, technology, etc is already making people much more effective hunters. I just don't like that we continually tilt the odds against our wildlife with more and more seasons, technology, etc. I take advantage of every season and technical advantage I legally can (read-I dont think "my" type of hunting is better than someone elses) but I'd give that up in a heartbeat if it meant my time in the woods was improved with more animal encounters and more healthy wildlife populations. What gets restricted is the ugly part and it's clear most hunters wont sacrifice an ounce of opportunity once they have tasted it for the greater good.

 

[Troubles Trees]

2007 in NY Archers harvested 31,060 deer in total.
2008 in NY Archers harvested 32,366 deer in total.
2009 in NY Archers harvested 34,546 deer in total.
2010 in NY Archers harvested 34,530 deer in total.
2011 in NY Archers harvested 36,323 deer in total. This is the first year crossbows were legal and they supposedly only took 491 deer.
2012 in NY Archers harvested 36,208 deer in total. They do not show how many were taken with crossbow for some reason.
2013 in NY Archers harvested 36,676 deer in total. They have a 0 in the crossbow category and not sure why.
2014 in NY Archers harvested 35,388 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 29,853 Crossbows took 5,535.
2015 in NY Archers harvested 37,697 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 30,201 Crossbows took 7,469.
2016 in NY Archers harvested 46,735 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 37,296 Crossbows took 9,439. Trump made hunting great again! hahaa
2017 in NY Archers harvested 43,708 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 31,950 Crossbows took 11,758.
2018 in NY Archers harvested 43,832 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 33,003 Crossbows took 10,829.
2019 in NY Archers harvested 51,618 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 41,049 Crossbows took 10,569.
2020 in NY Archers harvested 68,021 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 56,736 Crossbows took 11,285.
2021 in NY Archers harvested 48,679 deer in total, of that recurve and compound hunters took 34,295 Crossbows took 14,384.

That is the hard data for my state and although it doesn't clarify, I assumed Archers total included crossbow harvests but I could be wrong.

Deer and Bear Harvests

 

[homerj1]

Deer are seen as liabilities to be managed by most state DNRs. The more that can be killed the better.

 

[Telemark]

I'll ask you the same question nobody else wants to answer - if archery seasons are just for egoism and selfish people,

I didn't say that. I said individuals wanting to limit seasons to their preferred methods is egoism and selfishness.

should we eliminate them and make it rifle season Sept - January? Why have a crossbow season, they are less effective than firearms. It's all just gatekeeping, shouldn't we be able take every advantage we can to get a clean kill?

I wouldn't object if that were the case. It would bring up a lot of questions regarding management. If people were more likely to shoot their deer then we would probably have to limit the number they were permitted to shoot. That's how it is where I live; bow hunting is completely forbidden, and rifle season is 4 months. There are positives and negatives to it, but a reasonable balance tailored to the specific location is probably what's best.

It's funny how anyone who wants the line anywhere in front of where we want it is "selfish". I'll acknowledge that I have selfish desires, what burns me is when people who also have selfish desires are dishonest about it and try to make others out to be the bad guys for seeing things differently.

I'm not making you out to be a bad guy. But by your own admission, you have selfish desires, presumably regarding hunting. The most important thing for me is that hunting regulations allow for a sustainable ethical harvest. Other than that I don't really care how people take their deer, and I certainly wouldn't want to limit a hunter's means unreasonably and arbitrarily.

If we agree that there are reasonable restrictions to limit hunter's effectiveness, there is likely a logical argument. Whether or not that argument fits YOUR desired balance of opportunity is another story.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I don't have what I would call a "desired balance of opportunity", and I don't really understand the phrase as it applies to this topic.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I don't have what I would call a "desired balance of opportunity", and I don't really understand the phrase as it applies to this topic.

I meant balance of opportunity vs quality of hunting. If we do not limit opportunity, quality of hunting goes down (the extent largely dependent on location). Nobody would give a crap about going to IA to hunt whitetails if they gave everyone who wanted to hunt there a rifle tag Oct-January because the hunting would be garbage on all but the most highly managed properties. Yet they dont allow crossbows or firearms during the rut and are the envy of the country when it comes to hunt quality.

You said:

There is no logical argument to restricting the use of crossbows in favor of vertical bows.

The logic is obvious. Crossbows are a more effective weapon and facilitate more hunters being in the woods. More hunters in the woods with more effective weapons = more dead deer and more pressured/harder to hunt deer = a poorer hunting experience. We can argue about what that impact is and I'll even say for some with well managed properties that impact may be POSITIVE because the increased pressure on adjacent lands pushes deer onto your property. I just have a hard time with folks pretending that whatever someone else wants is selfish if it differs from their own selfish wants

I wouldn't object if that were the case. It would bring up a lot of questions regarding management. If people were more likely to shoot their deer then we would probably have to limit the number they were permitted to shoot.

In my home state we're allowed to shoot 1 buck per year. You can buy archery, rifle, and muzzleloader tags but only one can be used on a buck annually. How much lower are they going to lower how many we can shoot? In North Dakota residents frequently wait 5 years to draw a single buck rifle tag. I point this out to illustrate there is abundant logic in many places to restrict the use of more effective weapons.

 

[bwoods11]

Most people are so wrapped around a damn stupid inches antler score they forget what hunting is about - Killing deer, hanging out with your friends, getting away from the bull crap at work etc.

I’m sorry, but lots of people in the hunting world complaining about what people are using to legally harvest animals, and how it’s negatively affecting their hunting because we can’t all shoot 160” deer. Figure out how to be a better hunter / land manager and get down wind of those bucks.

Before I sold my last farm - I was rotatation grazing a herd of cattle, pigs and birds. I’m well aware of the benefits of holistic management and wildlife. I go hunting to kill something.

Not everyone is like you. Sorry I don’t have an ounce of interest in killing a spike, fork, basket rack buck. Does yes I enjoy that .

It’s not a bad thing to let a deer walk by your stand. It’s fun actually!!

Same with fishing. I let many walleye go on the lake I live on in Minnesota. Some don’t understand that . I want to see them get bigger.

You can hang out with friends and hunt and fish—-and not kill everything that moves either. We do that all the time.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Most people are so wrapped around a damn stupid inches antler score they forget what hunting is about - Killing deer, hanging out with your friends, getting away from the bull crap at work etc.

I’m sorry, but lots of people in the hunting world complaining about what people are using to legally harvest animals, and how it’s negatively affecting their hunting because we can’t all shoot 160” deer. Figure out how to be a better hunter / land manager and get down wind of those bucks.

Before I sold my last farm - I was rotatation grazing a herd of cattle, pigs and birds. I’m well aware of the benefits of holistic management and wildlife. I go hunting to kill something.

Maybe for some people inches (mature, smart free roaming bucks) is why they hunt, they like to test themselves against the best representation of the species. Maybe if some people weren’t so worried about filling a buck tag they forget what hunting is about. Plenty of does to be shot. It can work both ways.
I’m not arguing your way is bad, but the other way isn’t bad either.

 

[bueller]

Ahh...the annual crossbow debate. Good time for it during the October lull.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Most people are so wrapped around a damn stupid inches antler score they forget what hunting is about - Killing deer, hanging out with your friends, getting away from the bull crap at work etc.

I’m sorry, but lots of people in the hunting world complaining about what people are using to legally harvest animals, and how it’s negatively affecting their hunting because we can’t all shoot 160” deer. Figure out how to be a better hunter / land manager and get down wind of those bucks.

Before I sold my last farm - I was rotatation grazing a herd of cattle, pigs and birds. I’m well aware of the benefits of holistic management and wildlife. I go hunting to kill something.

Yeah, I hear you. I do not disagree. I could care less if somebody wants to use a crossbow, a rifle, or run dogs. If baiting is legal and that's your thing...OK. Fine too. I don't care if hunters shoot spikes, forks, or mature bucks. It's none of my business, and I'm not judging anybody.

I differ from you in that I am not out to simply kill deer. That's all. I could bait...I don't. I could use a crossbow...I don't. I could shoot a spike...I don't. I could very easily shoot a deer from my back deck every fall if I wanted to. I don't. I would not go to any means to simply kill a deer. That does not lesson in any way the reasons I am on this forum though as it seemed like you were questioning..."If you don't love killing deer (like me)...then why are you here?" was the gist of it.

 

[omicron1792]

Yeah, I hear you. I do not disagree. I could care less if somebody wants to use a crossbow, a rifle, or run dogs. If baiting is legal and that's your thing...OK. Fine too. I don't care if hunters shoot spikes, forks, or mature bucks. It's none of my business, and I'm not judging anybody.

I differ from you in that I am not out to simply kill deer. That's all. I could bait...I don't. I could use a crossbow...I don't. I could shoot a spike...I don't. I could very easily shoot a deer from my back deck every fall if I wanted to. I don't. I would not go to any means to simply kill a deer. That does not lesson in any way the reasons I am on this forum though as it seemed like you were questioning..."If you don't love killing deer (like me)...then why are you here?" was the gist of it.

Really good points and my thoughts on this.

I will say lots of my friends make it once or twice hunting a year. When they go they want to kill a deer. That’s not what I want, but I can see their point of view.

As far as this board, i see it for habitat managers that build great habitat for great wildlife and deer. My guess is for every 10 deer hunters one are like us and 9 are like the guys I mentioned above that hunt a couple of times a year and go to kill a deer.

 

[Catscratch]

I don't care one bit what someone hunts deer with. I do however think primitive weapons seasons are justifiably longer and during a time when animals are easier to hunt for a reason. As technology increases that primitive weapon disadvantage lessens. I'm all for drawing a line in the sand somewhere, and yes it should take more work to be proficient with a primitive. I like to run marathons and ultra marathons. Not everybody has the time, desire, willpower, health, body, or finances to do them. There will be a point at life when I can no longer do them. That's ok. Not everybody can do everything. I personally think archery season should be open to any configuration of bow as long as it's string is released with fingers.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

Guys,

Go hunt with a crossbow - it’s not some magical Thors Hammer of a weapon - where you touch it once and instantly your a 300lb Busch lite drinking, Copenhagen dipping big hairy American winning machine that shoots multiple arrows at 900ft per second 200 yards through the woods through a pile of green briar.

You still have to hunt and get close to the damn deer, and usually get a little lucky.

I don’t have any places where I can shoot deer with a xbow at 200 yards over a bean field. I do all my bow hunting (most all of my hunting) on public land. The shots are not ever over 40 yards. Even with a rifle.

As far as passing deer - our experiences must be quite different. My experience hunting Public Land in the Northeast is this - Deer, Buck, Bang. There is not so many deer that you can just go letting that 4, 6, 8 pts walk by. You won’t see a buck the rest of the year! Sure maybe let him go/grow - Tag soup tastes like shit.

As far as being a blood thirsty spike horn killing heathen - I’m consistently killing deer on public land that anyone else can and does hunt. I’m doing it from the ground, in a grille leaf suit, with my shots under 10 yards. (Talk about intense!).

Not saying that to brag, but (and I’ll piss a lot of people on this forum off for saying this) hunters with access to managed hunting land with food plots and tower blinds critiquing my choice of weapon and deer I shoot because it’s too “easy” holds no water with me.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

Yeah, I hear you. I do not disagree. I could care less if somebody wants to use a crossbow, a rifle, or run dogs. If baiting is legal and that's your thing...OK. Fine too. I don't care if hunters shoot spikes, forks, or mature bucks. It's none of my business, and I'm not judging anybody.

I differ from you in that I am not out to simply kill deer. That's all. I could bait...I don't. I could use a crossbow...I don't. I could shoot a spike...I don't. I could very easily shoot a deer from my back deck every fall if I wanted to. I don't. I would not go to any means to simply kill a deer. That does not lesson in any way the reasons I am on this forum though as it seemed like you were questioning..."If you don't love killing deer (like me)...then why are you here?" was the gist of it.

I’m not putting down the reasons behind why anyone is on this forum. I too like to plant stuff and see wildlife using it. But when I’m hunting - it’s game on, any legal means necessary.

 

[SwampCat]

You can make anything you want more difficult. Personally, in my state, I believe it easier to take a good buck with a compound than a rifle. We have a four week rifle season during the rut and a five month bow season from first of Oct to end of Feb. You can hunt bucks with a bow while the bucks are still in their summer pattern and then hunt them again in the winter when they are really seeking food sources. Rifle season, it is hard to pattern a deer because they are rutting and they dont even know what they are going to do. My shoulder has shot craps on me - I hunted with a compound bow and nothing else for 12 straight years. I have killed more deer with a compound than any other weapon. Now, I hunt with a crossbow. I have shot one time at a deer in the three years I have hunted with it. I only hunt from the ground. I only hunt my target buck. The deer I shot with my crossbow would have been a dead shot with my compound. I also hunt with a rifle. I have not fired my rifle at a deer in years. The weapon is not all that makes the hunt difficult or easy. Regulations - or personal restrictions - can do that.

 

[Telemark]

I meant balance of opportunity vs quality of hunting. If we do not limit opportunity, quality of hunting goes down (the extent largely dependent on location). Nobody would give a crap about going to IA to hunt whitetails if they gave everyone who wanted to hunt there a rifle tag Oct-January because the hunting would be garbage on all but the most highly managed properties. Yet they dont allow crossbows or firearms during the rut and are the envy of the country when it comes to hunt quality.

You said:


The logic is obvious. Crossbows are a more effective weapon and facilitate more hunters being in the woods. More hunters in the woods with more effective weapons = more dead deer and more pressured/harder to hunt deer = a poorer hunting experience. We can argue about what that impact is and I'll even say for some with well managed properties that impact may be POSITIVE because the increased pressure on adjacent lands pushes deer onto your property. I just have a hard time with folks pretending that whatever someone else wants is selfish if it differs from their own selfish wants



In my home state we're allowed to shoot 1 buck per year. You can buy archery, rifle, and muzzleloader tags but only one can be used on a buck annually. How much lower are they going to lower how many we can shoot? In North Dakota residents frequently wait 5 years to draw a single buck rifle tag. I point this out to illustrate there is abundant logic in many places to restrict the use of more effective weapons.

That's not logic at all. That is subjective reasoning. Even the term "quality of hunting" is purely subjective in its nature. Additionally, sustainability and ethics should come before "quality", regardless of the individual's interpretation of what quality hunting is.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I’m not putting down the reasons behind why anyone is on this forum. I too like to plant stuff and see wildlife using it. But when I’m hunting - it’s game on, any legal means necessary.

OK. It sure sounded like it though when you wrote "If you don't (like killing deer)...what are you doing here?" I have a feeling you and I are at very different places as hunters. I know fully well what it's like to hunt the Northeast...been hunting deer here since 1986. There was a time when I would, like you, should any legal buck. Now, I just have absolutely no interest in shooting spikes...just because if I don't I'll eat tag soup. I could really care less.

Good luck this season up in VT. Looking forward to the VT season as well...I hunt in Somerset. But I only hunt big bucks. And I only hunt by tracking those wise old bucks down and killing them in a swamp. That's my personal challenge. But hunting spikes in a ghillie suit sounds fun too...just not my thing.

 

[Garrett S]

And if you are a subscriber of dons master class you’ll note the fence tactic is becoming a norm.

Have to laugh- and I am a big fan of both DH and TL for their abilities and approaches (even paying to learn from both) but they’re starting to assimilate into the same with business techniques and mantras.

 

[Brian662]

And if you are a subscriber of dons master class you’ll note the fence tactic is becoming a norm.

Have to laugh- and I am a big fan of both DH and TL for their abilities and approaches (even paying to learn from both) but they’re starting to assimilate into the same with business techniques and mantras.

Who is TL?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Who is TL?

Guessing Tony Lapratt.

 

[Garrett S]

Guessing Tony Lapratt.

Yessir.


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