Interesting discussion with Don Higgins on the Land Podcast

[Baker]

Can anyone do the survey and does it have to be a certain time of year? If someone owned 20 acres, would they get allocated deer too? Are there public lands where people can hunt in Mexico?

It makes sense for the LA and Mexico depts to give you the reigns to manage your own farms but you are far from the average hunter. The way I see it is hunting regs are largely written to provide opportunity to those of modest means but at the same time prevent those without the means, knowledge, or care to positively impact conservation from wiping out wildlife.

This conversation brings up a lot of different thoughts/questions that i'm ignorant to
1. What dictates when someone needs a tag to shoot a deer in a high fence vs being livestock that can be sold or killed at will?
2. Is it typical for there to be permits or approvals needed to build a high fence on rural properties?

Whew ! I'm picking Japanese persimmons for the wife to do her magic on. Not sure she understands my constant breaking off to post here...but this is kinda fun!.

Let me paint a picture of our neighborhood in Mexico and what I know about the prime hunting grounds.The smallest neighbor I have only has 8000 acres. A ranchette. My immediate neighbor to the south has 50,000 acres all hi fenced. He rain 90 miles of pvc making custom water troughs every 250 acres designed such for deer and birds[ a little overflow into a puddle ] plus has a protein feeder ever 150 acres.Most ranches range from 10,000 acres up to really big.Many have private runways. Take that picture and go 150 miles from Piedras Negras to Nuevo Laredo all along the Rio Grande Riverand the pattern repeats itself constantly. That is the scale down there. No-one has 20 or 40 acres to hunt. We do our own 'survey'.

The closest thing to public lands that I am aware of down there are the ejido's which is public landed granted to communities by decree in the 1990's. Socialist country! There is a 23,000. acre ejido near owned by a local village. It has been destroyed by grazing and 24/7 365 hunting. Its the same caliber country that we have just wrecked by socialized land use.

Not sure how to answer your 1) question as deer are not livestock and I am unfamiliar with any correlation. We apply and pay for DMAP privileges in La. but beyond that I don't pay much attention to what others requirements are. 2) No permits in La. at least not when I built my fence. the state is fairly reasonable defending individual property rights.Mexico could care less.

 

[weekender21]

I don't think anyone has a great handle on what rural life is going to look like 5-10 years from now. There are lots of things that are changing, and one of them is wildlife. It's a sad state for deer, because deer have no advocate other than deer hunters. And deer hunters don't compensate society for the damage caused by deer.

States are going to grow tired of paying contractors to shoot troublesome deer. I wouldn't put it past state science to start working on sterilants in feed that they can drop from airplanes (even onto your property under the cover of darkness), deer specific poisons that don't affect off-target critters, or even gene edits that degrade the DNA of whitetail deer to blunt their survival and reproductive instincts.

If someone wants wildlife on their property, they may end up being required to take responsibility for those animals (including keeping them on your property), or the state will kill them.

Them are fightin words…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mortenson]

I love to grow giant pumpkins. The damn things require constant care, beyond normal nutrition, protection from predators, and the right genetics.

Don't intend to sabotage the thread, but I'd love to see what you've grown. Feel free to start a new thread or comment on the pumpkin plot thread. We got bit by the bug in our first year. I see a MN grower just set the new national record. He hauled it to CA just for the weigh-in. IL set a new state record this week also. Italy now owns the new world record, boo.

 

[Catscratch]

Don't intend to sabotage the thread, but I'd love to see what you've grown. Feel free to start a new thread or comment on the pumpkin plot thread. We got bit by the bug in our first year. I see a MN grower just set the new national record. He hauled it to CA just for the weigh-in. IL set a new state record this week also. Italy now owns the new world record, boo.

No pics on this phone as I didn't grow any this yr (trying to break a squash bug cycle), plus this site doesn't let me post pics. Wish I could say I've grown some contenders but a couple hundred pounds is it. What about you? Growing any big ones?

 

[Mortenson]

We had one that taped around 125 lbs this year when the kids decided they wanted to bring it home. It was growing 5 lbs a day at that point, so we could've got more from her. We didn't even know it existed until a few weeks before we grabbed it. Our first attempt at a patch got murdered by groundhogs mostly and we kinda left it for dead. Stuck some seeds in the mounds that we had saved from last year's pumkin, and that, along with a few from the Howard Dill decoration package that dodged the critters, made for a nice diverse plot. I think our big 1 was an atlantic giant, but there's a chance it could also be a monster smash.

 

[Catscratch]

Never tried a monster smash (that I know of. Had a big grower give me a couple of seeds once but wouldn't name them.). 125 is big for something you didn't know about!

 

[buckdeer1]

So in Africa theres alot of fence but the animals aren't tame and most of the fences are there to keep other animals and poachers out.These arewere from around 600 to thousands of acres.I don't think I would consider a deer a pet on more than say 80 acres in high fence.I got bucks on me that i never have had a pic of say north of this fence but will have hundreds south of the fence and its a fallen down 5 strand so they have their ranges that rarely they may cross.Being involved in farming and ag all this "oh my goodness deer are eating all my crop BS" I have high numbers and yes they browse the crops but I will promise other animals such as coons and turkeys cause more damage than browse.Now for Don Higgins,I have listened to all his podcast and really cell cams haven't been used much more than 5 years to alot of extent.He talks about using trail cams to follow the progression of bucks in many different areas.I believe he said something the other day out of 15 bucks there may only be 1or 2 that will reach the age and size.I agree crossbows can have an effect in an area on mature bucks as I think about every buck I couldn't shoot because he was 30+ yards or I got caught drawing or maybe was just shaking to much because I couldn't rest the forearm on a tripod.Why else would so many hunters with crossbows be killing mature bucks unless it made things easier.

 

[Mortenson]

I've stated this before, and maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but my crossbow has kept more bucks alive because I carry it. Had it 4 seasons now I think. It's one of the primo 100 yard $2k deals. I haven't taken it off my lap yet. Never shot an animal with it. Passed up several bucks in the 140"+ range that I would've shot with my compound bow. Still have my Mathews compound, but I'm not much of a bowhunter these days due to life, but I usually take the xbow when I get a chance to go. Is raising your standards when you have a more capable weapon something that helps, or more of a non-starter? Basically nobody else raising their standards?

 

[Catscratch]

I've stated this before, and maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but my crossbow has kept more bucks alive because I carry it. Had it 4 seasons now I think. It's one of the primo 100 yard $2k deals. I haven't taken it off my lap yet. Never shot an animal with it. Passed up several bucks in the 140"+ range that I would've shot with my compound bow. Still have my Mathews compound, but I'm not much of a bowhunter these days due to life, but I usually take the xbow when I get a chance to go. Is raising your standards when you have a more capable weapon something that helps, or more of a non-starter? Basically nobody else raising their standards?

I imagine those who started with a vertical bow and hunted with it long term would raise their standards, but someone starting out with one wouldn't.

 

[Troubles Trees]

I am very much a fan of supporting personal choice in many aspects in life but it applies to hunting as well. You do you and I will do me (giggidy :) As long as it is legal I don't care how you hunt or what you harvest and I am simply happy for you that you are happy with the results.

I might be the confused one here but I only know what things are in my area so I am admittedly naive to the subject, so when I hear "high fence hunting" I envision one that we have locally that is called Cold Brook Hunts here in Homer NY. It offers any type of animal you want to hunt weather it is exotic or not. You tell them what you want to kill, they send you pictures of what they have/can get and when you book and they order it (or already have on hand) and when it comes time to "hunt" they shoo it out of the pen and into a bigger 30-40'ish acre pen that you and your "guide" are in. It is inevitable the animal will come within shooting range at some point and you kill it, take pictures and pay the exorbitant fee for a "record book" type animal....and they are freaking big critters. To me this isn't hunting, they are penned animals their whole life and are anything but wild with no aspect of "fair chase" but whatever floats your boat, it's not for me and if your happy than I am happy for you. To me that is a polar opposite of someone fencing a several hundred acre property and managing the habitat for the wild deer inside. Maybe I just don't get the argument?

Why else would so many hunters with crossbows be killing mature bucks unless it made things easier.

Sorry about sidetracking but I haven't researched this but to me, and I mean no offense here but the crossbow/compound argument is as silly as back when compounds were first introduced and the recurve guys refused to call them compound hunters "bow hunters". You can shoot a compound just as well as you can a crossbow and I will post a video that proves it. Shooting a crossbow freehand I personally don't shoot as tight a group as I can with my compound. People complain that crossbows can shoot 100 yards, well probably with a bit of sighting in with a rest and a copious amount of practice, a rangefinder for the field and a rest in your treestand sure but that can also be done with a compound like everything else with enough practice (watch the video). To me, hunting is about choosing the best legal weapon to dispatch your quarry in the quickest most humane way possible. If someone is more comfortable shooting a crossbow or if it simply gets more people involved with the sport then I am all for it.

To answer Buckdeer's question I am replying to, I can think of a few reasons but to me it really seems like a kneejerk statement without offering any data or location. Is there really "so many hunters with crossbows killing mature bucks"? Here in NY crossbows were illegal until about 5-6 years ago. We have bow season from October 1st until mid-November (1.5 months) and can only crossbow hunt the last 2 weeks, the last 2 weeks of bow season is prime rut though but compounds have a month more to hunt so there are so many variables to the statement you made at least where I live and hunt. We are definitely killing more mature bucks today than we were 10 years ago because nobody legally hunted with them 10 years ago. My stepfather quit bowhunting altogether because he couldn't pull back enough weight until crossbows became legal, he still doesn't kill anything because honestly he is a terrible hunter but it got him back into the woods doing what he loves and that is what it is all about. Taking a crossbow in the woods doesn't really put a bigger more mature buck in your freezer does it? Personally I am comfortable shooting my bow and my crossbow 40 yards max and only that far if I have a rest with the crossbow, freehand with my compound obviously.

Gosh that was terribly long, sorry for that lol Here is an inspirational video for y'all.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I see a number of things differently.

Sorry about sidetracking but I haven't researched this but to me, and I mean no offense here but the crossbow/compound argument is as silly as back when compounds were first introduced and the recurve guys refused to call them compound hunters "bow hunters". You can shoot a compound just as well as you can a crossbow and I will post a video that proves it. Shooting a crossbow freehand I personally don't shoot as tight a group as I can with my compound. People complain that crossbows can shoot 100 yards, well probably with a bit of sighting in with a rest and a copious amount of practice, a rangefinder for the field and a rest in your treestand sure but that can also be done with a compound like everything else with enough practice (watch the video).

There are 2 main reasons why crossbows during archery season results in more dead deer:
1. There isn't a significant learning curve. Go to store, buy crossbow, sight it in like a rifle, go hunting. Learning how to effectively shoot a vertical bow keeps lots of people out of archery season as evidenced by a whole bunch of people now hunting with a crossbow that wouldn't be hunting if they had to go through the trouble of learning to shoot a vertical bow. This is why how good someone can get on a vertical bow with practice is almost meaningless in this conversation because crossbows are largely used by people because they require no practice.
2. You dont have to draw the bow when a deer is within range. Should be self explanatory why this makes them more effective weapons.

To me, hunting is about choosing the best legal weapon to dispatch your quarry in the quickest most humane way possible. If someone is more comfortable shooting a crossbow or if it simply gets more people involved with the sport then I am all for it.

By that logic we should just end dedicated archery and muzzle loader seasons. There is a reason (usually) why "primative weapons" seasons were kept separate from firearm seasons related to both managing amount of deer killed and pressure placed on them.

 

[blueKYstream]

I see a number of things differently.



There are 2 main reasons why crossbows during archery season results in more dead deer:
1. There isn't a significant learning curve. Go to store, buy crossbow, sight it in like a rifle, go hunting. Learning how to effectively shoot a vertical bow keeps lots of people out of archery season as evidenced by a whole bunch of people now hunting with a crossbow that wouldn't be hunting if they had to go through the trouble of learning to shoot a vertical bow. This is why how good someone can get on a vertical bow with practice is almost meaningless in this conversation because crossbows are largely used by people because they require no practice.
2. You dont have to draw the bow when a deer is within range. Should be self explanatory why this makes them more effective weapons.



By that logic we should just end dedicated archery and muzzle loader seasons. There is a reason (usually) why "primative weapons" seasons were kept separate from firearm seasons related to both managing amount of deer killed and pressure placed on them.

So we want to reserve a hunting season only for those that want to practice all summer with a bow? There shouldn't be a season for those that don't have time to practice regularly or don't enjoy shooting a bow or aren't capable of pulling a bow or whatever reason one might have? It doesn't make any sense to me. While we're at it, let's outlaw modern firearms and in-line muzzleloaders. Maybe we should make compound bows illegal. Let's make the only legal weapon a spear or a bow made by the user or their immediate family with locally sourced wood and sinew. Trail cameras, mechanical broadheads, driving vehicles to the property or to your stand - gone! Everything that makes it too easy, banned. I'm sorry but I'm kind of laughing at the thought.

If anything, shouldn't we be happy that there's presumably fewer wounded deer with a crossbow compared to a compound bow? After all, it's all about the animal, right? I'm with @Troubles Trees on this. Why does anyone care? If it's "easier" with a crossbow, so what? Hunt with a bow if you want.

I enjoy shooting a buck or showing others my mounts as much as the next guy, but I highly doubt many others besides me care that much beyond a "that's cool" or "that's a nice buck". If Joe Schmo in Iowa shoots a 300" high-fenced deer, I don't really care. If my neighbor shoots the buck I was after, I'm likely to wallow in self-pity for a bit, but I'm happy for them. I eventually come to terms that I need to be a better hunter or figure a way to make my place more attractive to a buck in the future. I don't really think about outlawing a particular weapon because it's too easy or tell a person that they're the devil for putting a fence around a portion or all of their property.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

So we want to reserve a hunting season only for those that want to practice all summer with a bow? There shouldn't be a season for those that don't have time to practice regularly or don't enjoy shooting a bow or aren't capable of pulling a bow or whatever reason one might have? It doesn't make any sense to me. While we're at it, let's outlaw modern firearms and in-line muzzleloaders. Maybe we should make compound bows illegal. Let's make the only legal weapon a spear or a bow made by the user or their immediate family with locally sourced wood and sinew. Trail cameras, mechanical broadheads, driving vehicles to the property or to your stand - gone! Everything that makes it too easy, banned. I'm sorry but I'm kind of laughing at the thought.

I'm trying to make sense of this comment and can only surmise that you didn't make it in response to my post or there has historically been drastically different season structure (I.E. no dedicated archery season) where you're from than what I've seen across the entire midwest and west.
1. I have never practiced all summer with a bow
2. Crossbows came into the conversation because Don said they are the main driver behind reduced age class in IL since they were made legal during IL archery season. I have pointed out in this thread that I think there are numerous other notable drivers but to argue that crossbows wouldn't have an impact on hunting quality isn't supported by logic.
3. Everywhere in the west and midwest that i'm familiar with ADDED archery seasons as ADITTIONAL hunting opportunity. Same with muzzle loaders. These additional seasons and the associated season dates/durations were/are often justified by the fact that these weapons are less effective at killing animals. So if you are asking if "we" want to restrict a special season to only archery hunters, the vast majority of states would say "yeah, that is what we meant by "archery season" when we created them decades ago".

If anything, shouldn't we be happy that there's presumably fewer wounded deer with a crossbow compared to a compound bow? After all, it's all about the animal, right? I'm with @Troubles Trees on this.

I think the general logic for regulations is based on resulting mortality (including wound loss). But if we use this wounding logic we might as well just use rifles during archery season. Are you on board with that?

Why does anyone care? If it's "easier" with a crossbow, so what? Hunt with a bow if you want.

I really doubt 95% of hunters give 2 shiites if hunting is easier for others but they sure care if making it easier for others makes it harder for them. How many Iowa resident hunters do you think would jump at the opportunity to trade their quality of hunting for the the quality available in other states? They have that quality of hunting because they restrict opportunity - crossbows not allowed in archery season, firearm season happens after the rut, and they limit non-resident opportunity. Hunters have a wide range of preference along the opportunity/ease vs quality of hunting continuum and in most cases I would argue there isnt a right or wrong answer, just personal preference. However, if someone wants to claim making crossbows legal during standard archery season has zero impact on the quality of hunting, i'll not hesitate to call BS.

 

[blueKYstream]

I get tired of people telling others what they should and shouldn't do while hunting, whether that's crossbows, fences, whatever. I wasn't trying to pick on you. I disagree with Don or whomever thinks crossbows have a significant impact on the herd overall. Here are the numbers by my state (KY):

Harvest rates by weapon in my state of KY in 2021:
Archery: 14,869 (11%)
Firearm: 96,011 (73%)
Muzzleloader 9,246 (7%)
Crossbow 12,202 (9%)

2022 Season Dates (no major changes from 2021):
Archery & Youth/Senior Crossbow: September 3 - January 16
Crossbow: September 17 - January 16
Youth-Only Gun: October 8 - 9
Muzzleloader: October 15 -16 & December 10-18
Modern Gun: November 12-27
Free Youth Weekend: December 31 - January 1

If crossbows provide such a huge advantage, why are the kill rates 2% lower in KY, for instance, than archery despite a season that runs nearly the entire length as archery? Sure, the data doesn't suggest how many archers vs crossbow users there are, but it does suggest that crossbow is no more a "problem" than archery would be. I don't understand why crossbows are that big of a deal.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Let’s just remove all restrictions and hunt with anti aircraft weapons. When we blow them up we can get participation trophies. God forbid we actually make something a challenge.

 

[bwoods11]

Anyone else on here besides me—wish their state would CUT back on hunting seasons so more bucks would live past age 3??

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I get tired of people telling others what they should and shouldn't do while hunting, whether that's crossbows, fences, whatever. I wasn't trying to pick on you. I disagree with Don or whomever thinks crossbows have a significant impact on the herd overall. Here are the numbers by my state (KY):

Harvest rates by weapon in my state of KY in 2021:
Archery: 14,869 (11%)
Firearm: 96,011 (73%)
Muzzleloader 9,246 (7%)
Crossbow 12,202 (9%)

2022 Season Dates (no major changes from 2021):
Archery & Youth/Senior Crossbow: September 3 - January 16
Crossbow: September 17 - January 16
Youth-Only Gun: October 8 - 9
Muzzleloader: October 15 -16 & December 10-18
Modern Gun: November 12-27
Free Youth Weekend: December 31 - January 1

If crossbows provide such a huge advantage, why are the kill rates 2% lower in KY, for instance, than archery despite a season that runs nearly the entire length as archery? Sure, the data doesn't suggest how many archers vs crossbow users there are, but it does suggest that crossbow is no more a "problem" than archery would be. I don't understand why crossbows are that big of a deal.

Not enough info to make absolute statements. However, a quick look at harvest trends showed notably more deer are being harvested during archery season than were prior to archery season being opened to crossbows. More hunters in the woods during archery season and more deer being shot correlates to a lesser quality of hunt than prior to crossbows being allowed. To what extent can be debated and I don't have a dog in the fight for KY regs.

I'm very open to the idea that crossbows are not making a huge impact on things but acting like having a bunch more hunters in the woods with more effective weapons doesn't impact anyone negatively doesn't seem intellectually honest. I think we all have our own line of what we'd like to see on that opportunity vs quality scale but lets be honest about our motivations. I assume you have a line where you wouldn't like to see things made any easier or in your words "tell others what they should or shouldn't do". Would you be open to rifle season being Sept-Jan? What about being open 24 hr/day and open use of thermal optics?

 

[rocksnstumps]

Let’s just remove all restrictions and hunt with anti aircraft weapons. When we blow them up we can get participation trophies. God forbid we actually make something a challenge.

Reminds me of a story a boss of mine long ago liked to tell. He was on a plane and some fellow next to him was talking all about his great Safari adventures and the resulting trophy body count. My boss causally mention he bagged an elephant once. The fella got all excited and said he had not done that yet and wanted to know what gun/load my boss used.

Told him was no problem, he took out an elephant on the Ho Chi Mihn trail in Nam running supplies for Charlie with his fighter jet as he was a pilot back then!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Reminds me of a story a boss of mine long ago liked to tell. He was on a plane and some fellow next to him was talking all about his great Safari adventures and the resulting trophy body count. My boss causally mention he bagged an elephant once. The fella got all excited and said he had not done that yet and wanted to know what gun/load my boss used.

Told him was no problem, he took out an elephant on the Ho Chi Mihn trail in Nam running supplies for Charlie with his fighter jet as he was a pilot back then!

Stranger - "awesome, what caliber did you use?!"
Boss - "20 mm"
Pause
Stranger - "20 millimeter? Recoil must be brutal"

 

[blueKYstream]

Not enough info to make absolute statements. However, a quick look at harvest trends showed notably more deer are being harvested during archery season than were prior to archery season being opened to crossbows. More hunters in the woods during archery season and more deer being shot correlates to a lesser quality of hunt than prior to crossbows being allowed. To what extent can be debated and I don't have a dog in the fight for KY regs.

I'm very open to the idea that crossbows are not making a huge impact on things but acting like having a bunch more hunters in the woods with more effective weapons doesn't impact anyone negatively doesn't seem intellectually honest. I think we all have our own line of what we'd like to see on that opportunity vs quality scale but lets be honest about our motivations. I assume you have a line where you wouldn't like to see things made any easier or in your words "tell others what they should or shouldn't do". Would you be open to rifle season being Sept-Jan? What about being open 24 hr/day and open use of thermal optics?

Would you be open to having a 1-day season where you choose your weapon: bow, crossbow, muzzleloader or rifle? That's the reverse extreme hypothetical. Everyone will have a "great" hunt if the argument against using crossbows is hunters in the woods pressuring deer.

If you're looking for an absolute statement, more deer were killed with a bow than a Crossbow in KY in 2021. Where is the argument against bows or the length of the bow season? If the crossbow hate is because more people in the woods, why wouldn't that argument be directed towards shortening bow season or firearms? I think it's safe to say there are far more gun hunters than bow and/or Crossbow hunters combined.

The DNRs are trying to balance attracting various hunters with maintaining or improving the the quality of the herd (depending on location). It seems like a fair compromise from all parties for the most part. Hence, that's why I don't understand the attack on the use of crossbows, in particular.