Interesting discussion with Don Higgins on the Land Podcast

[Catscratch]

About 25 years ago, our state enacted a 3 point rule - buck had to have at least three pts on one side to be legal. It took about five years to see a difference. That rule basically protects most 1.5 yr old bucks. It definitely led to more 2.5 and thus, more 3.5 and so on.

But, while that was a direct effect, I think just as important was an indirect affect. A lot of hunters were forced to pass a 1.5 yr old buck - something a lot of hunters had never done in their life. And now, those hunters were able to see with their own eyes, the shifting of age classes of bucks on their land. They started seeing some 3.5 year old bucks - which had been as common as sasquatch in years past. And these hunters, seeing more and more 3 yr old bucks, started passing some of even these old bucks because the hunters no longer thought a 3 yr old buck was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I have ten and twelve yr old grand daughters who would not think about shooting a 14” 8 pt. I did not shoot a 14” 8 pt until I was 45 yrs old.

Seeing more big deer results in folks passing more big deer.

But, cwd has been found in the states and the antler pt restriction has been removed in those areas and a lot of hunters in those areas have gone back to brown its down. But even with that - a lot of private land owners are sticking with quality deer management

Interesting. I just posted above my point of view on "brown it's down" vs trophy hunting. After reading this post from SwampCat I realize we are coming from completely opposite ends of the spectrum; I'm watching a herd that had many 6+ year old trophies in it's population drop to 3 yr old deer... and SwampCat is watching a herd of 1 yr olds grow older. Different starting points, different takes.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Don pointed to crossbows as being a big driver in IL to a declining age structure on his last podcast. I do wonder if part of a declining age structure in many places has to do with hunters just being more informed and effective than they have ever been. There's better technology and more/better information out there on how to kill deer than there's ever been.

 

[trampledbyturtles]

Personally I hate the direction hunting is trending in this country.

 

[bwoods11]

Louisiana. I tend to be more interested in the deer's welfare that what hunters think or do. What I know for a fact is that the deer on my farm are as hard to hunt and challenging as anywhere its just that it is a far healthier herd in every way than most other places.

Why are they more healthy ?

 

[Baker]

Why are they more healthy ?

Simple. I’m able to manage a deer herd instead of managing habitat and hoping to keep whatever deer around that May pass by. As a result the deer herd on my farm reflect what a natural unmolested herd looks like. Ratio about 1:1. More bucks 4 and older than 1-3 yrs old. Numerous bucks and does diying of old age. High fawn recruitment. Deer on peak nutritional plane year round for decades. Lower social and environmental stress than typical hunting areas. Good age structure on females with numerous old matriarchs. Herd below carrying capacity Body weights much higher than typical in this area.

 

[Catscratch]

Don pointed to crossbows as being a big driver in IL to a declining age structure on his last podcast. I do wonder if part of a declining age structure in many places has to do with hunters just being more informed and effective than they have ever been. There's better technology and more/better information out there on how to kill deer than there's ever been.

Very possible. Compound bow effective range is many times what it used to be. Heck when I started hunting almost nobody used a bow at all, it was all rifles (which highly shortened the season time most were willing to hunt). Crossbows don't require nearly as much practice to be efficient at similar ranges. Bait piles, outfitters, internet, increased disposable income, more paid time off, youth seasons during the summer pattern, etc. Lots of things contributing towards higher odds of killing.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Very possible. Compound bow effective range is many times what it used to be. Heck when I started hunting almost nobody used a bow at all, it was all rifles (which highly shortened the season time most were willing to hunt). Crossbows don't require nearly as much practice to be efficient at similar ranges. Bait piles, outfitters, internet, increased disposable income, more paid time off, youth seasons during the summer pattern, etc. Lots of things contributing towards higher odds of killing.

Cell cameras…
I wrote to dr chamberlain from Uga about this issue in regards to turkey numbers. I argued the effective range of heavy metal shot shells has lead to an exponential distance component which in turn has resulted in more dead and wounded birds per hunt when compared to prior. He validated the thought but said more data is needed to see what effect. I hate to play conspiracy theorist but look who is a major sponsor of nwtf and game agency publications. Heavy metal shell companies. Can’t bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[omicron1792]

Louisiana. I tend to be more interested in the deer's welfare that what hunters think or do. What I know for a fact is that the deer on my farm are as hard to hunt and challenging as anywhere its just that it is a far healthier herd in every way than most other places.

How many acres do you have fenced?

 

[Baker]

How many acres do you have fenced?

1350

 

[Brian662]

Don pointed to crossbows as being a big driver in IL to a declining age structure on his last podcast. I do wonder if part of a declining age structure in many places has to do with hunters just being more informed and effective than they have ever been. There's better technology and more/better information out there on how to kill deer than there's ever been.

Everyone (Don included) wants to point to crossbows as the culprit because they don't use crossbows. Don talks about finding a "giant" and the flooding the area with "so many" cell cameras that he knows exactly what that deer is doing all the time. You think it's a coincidence that he's killed his best (only) 200" deer since the introduction of cell cams, yet he bags on people hunting with a crossbow?
The guy is a better hunter than me and has better ground to hunt on, I'm happy for him and listen to a good amount of his content...he's also got an agenda that you have to see to understand the whole picture.

 

[bwoods11]

Simple. I’m able to manage a deer herd instead of managing habitat and hoping to keep whatever deer around that May pass by. As a result the deer herd on my farm reflect what a natural unmolested herd looks like. Ratio about 1:1. More bucks 4 and older than 1-3 yrs old. Numerous bucks and does diying of old age. High fawn recruitment. Deer on peak nutritional plane year round for decades. Lower social and environmental stress than typical hunting areas. Good age structure on females with numerous old matriarchs. Herd below carrying capacity Body weights much higher than typical in this area.

Less stress I was guessing… I’m just curious.

 

[g squared 23]

Everyone (Don included) wants to point to crossbows as the culprit because they don't use crossbows. Don talks about finding a "giant" and the flooding the area with "so many" cell cameras that he knows exactly what that deer is doing all the time. You think it's a coincidence that he's killed his best (only) 200" deer since the introduction of cell cams, yet he bags on people hunting with a crossbow?
The guy is a better hunter than me and has better ground to hunt on, I'm happy for him and listen to a good amount of his content...he's also got an agenda that you have to see to understand the whole picture.

Don killed his first 200” deer before cell cams were invented.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Brian662]

Don killed his first 200” deer before cell cams were invented.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok. I stand corrected. Like I said, he's a better hunter than me, no doubt. Just seems a little disingenuous to bag on crossbows when his success has skyrocketed since the invention of cell cams.

If the Illinois DNR were to eliminate the legal use of cell cams and crossbows at the same time, which one do you think he'd be complaining about?

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Ok. I stand corrected. Like I said, he's a better hunter than me, no doubt. Just seems a little disingenuous to bag on crossbows when his success has skyrocketed since the invention of cell cams.

If the Illinois DNR were to eliminate the legal use of cell cams and crossbows at the same time, which one do you think he'd be complaining about?

I don’t hunt Illinois but that would be a dream scenario!

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Everyone (Don included) wants to point to crossbows as the culprit because they don't use crossbows. Don talks about finding a "giant" and the flooding the area with "so many" cell cameras that he knows exactly what that deer is doing all the time. You think it's a coincidence that he's killed his best (only) 200" deer since the introduction of cell cams, yet he bags on people hunting with a crossbow?
The guy is a better hunter than me and has better ground to hunt on, I'm happy for him and listen to a good amount of his content...he's also got an agenda that you have to see to understand the whole picture.

I'm not sure if he uses any cell cams at all. Apparently he's not a huge fan of trail cameras

 

[Brian662]

I'm not sure if he uses any cell cams at all. Apparently he's not a huge fan of trail cameras

I think you're mistaken.
ETA, unless we are talking about a different Don Higgins.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I think you're mistaken.
ETA, unless we are talking about a different Don Higgins.

What you are saying doesn’t align with what I’ve heard from Don in his podcasts and recent articles. I’m pretty sure he’d support the ban of cell cams or at least not fight it and would definitely be on board with crossbows being a senior or drs note or gun season only thing.

Last I heard Don said he uses about 6 cell cams out of the many cams he has out across many properties. To the contrary, they had podcasts last year basically bashing cell cams and warning about their shortcomings. He’s also said many times that trail cams (not cell cams) are probably the thing that probably aids killing (more so finding) big bucks more than anything.

He’s shot 3 deer over 200”.

 

[Brian662]

What you are saying doesn’t align with what I’ve heard from Don in his podcasts and recent articles. I’m pretty sure he’d support the ban of cell cams or at least not fight it and would definitely be on board with crossbows being a senior or drs note or gun season only thing.

Last I heard Don said he uses about 6 cell cams out of the many cams he has out across many properties. To the contrary, they had podcasts last year basically bashing cell cams and warning about their shortcomings. He’s also said many times that trail cams (not cell cams) are probably the thing that probably aids killing (more so finding) big bucks more than anything.

He’s shot 3 deer over 200”.

He says early on here that his success has skyrocketed in the past 5 years. I wonder what's changed? He continually complains about the herd in Illinois going down hill but his success has changed in the past 5 years. Think about it...

 

[Brian662]

He literally talks continuously about "trail cam history" and cell cams in this video.
"Step one is getting the trail cams out"
All in the first 10 minutes.
"I'll flood that area with trail cameras"

 

[Catscratch]

I don't do celebrity hunters so I don't really know much about how Higgins hunts. After the question was asked about trail cameras I googled "Don Higgins trail cameras". It appears he talks about and reviews trail cameras a lot.