Interesting discussion with Don Higgins on the Land Podcast

[Wind Gypsy]

I've heard Don talk about this a couple times before and I don't blame him at all if the way he describes it is true. Hard to know where to draw the line. Iff'n I were in Don's situation and the 5 acre parcel neighbor hunted it himself in a manner that was respectful to Don's efforts while still taking a buck every year, I would just let it be. If a 5 acre neighbor is letting people run wild and mess up the heart of your property, to hell with em and that fence makes sense.

The example scenario of guy in WI fencing in his neighbor's 40 is ugly. To hell with that guy if the story is true.

I despise the TX model where people who want good hunting and have a bunch of money just fence in their property and hunt their livestock. I really hope we don't all trend this way but it's going to be a struggle amongst those who want to see a decent age class of animals. The majority of hunters are taking any available opportunity to shoot something in the 2-4 days they hunt each year. Those hunters are getting squeezed into fewer and fewer opportunities so when they arise on land neighboring managed deer ground, there's potential for things to get ugly. I'd accept the idea of a 3 YO buck being an occasional trophy before getting on board with a bunch of high fences preventing the movement of wildlife. I can't afford 1000+ acres with a high fence but I can easily afford to hunt someone else's high fence deer every year. No thanks.

 

[bjseiler]

The best thing that ever happened to and for the deer on my farm...without a close second...was an 8' fence around the whole farm.

Are these high tensile fences? Two strips of woven wire?

 

[Catscratch]

The majority of hunters are taking any available opportunity to shoot something in the 2-4 days they hunt each year. Those hunters are getting squeezed into fewer and fewer opportunities so when they arise on land neighboring managed deer ground, there's potential for things to get ugly. I'd accept the idea of a 3 YO buck being an occasional trophy before getting on board with a bunch of high fences preventing the movement of wildlife. I can't afford 1000+ acres with a high fence but I can easily afford to hunt someone else's high fence deer every year. No thanks.

Growing up there were a lot of guys just looking to shoot something in the 2-4 days they hunt each yr, but that included does. It was the "brown it's down" crowd and I think it was good for deer management. Of course every once in a while the first deer they saw was a giant buck (which was cool). It's a little different now with EVERYBODY wanting antlers. Buck age class structure get hammered when everyone shoots a 3.5 yr old on their 4th day of hunting. I wish antlers weren't so important... so that I could have better odds of shooting something with big antlers. ;)

 

[Baker]

Are these high tensile fences? Two strips of woven wire?

I use 8' high tensile wire . Have found over the years 0ne 8' panel much better than 2 4' panels tied together.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Growing up there were a lot of guys just looking to shoot something in the 2-4 days they hunt each yr, but that included does. It was the "brown it's down" crowd and I think it was good for deer management. Of course every once in a while the first deer they saw was a giant buck (which was cool). It's a little different now with EVERYBODY wanting antlers. Buck age class structure get hammered when everyone shoots a 3.5 yr old on their 4th day of hunting. I wish antlers weren't so important... so that I could have better odds of shooting something with big antlers. ;)

Interesting take. So from what you've seen you feel that if the majority of hunters shoot the first deer they see it is likely to result in better age class than shooting the first 3.5 year old?

I'm sure it varies based on area but in MN where party hunting is a thing, it's common to do both. If the group has 8 tags and everyone shoots the first deer they see but there is at least 1 buck tag in the group, they are still out there hunting for that 3+ year old even having shot everything else already. This has made me of the opinion that more 2.5 YOs results in more 3.5 YOs and more 3.5 YOs results in more 4.5 YOs but don't have anything scientific to back it up.

On a side note, listened to the Land podcast with Don on Weds. Hearing the story again from Don, I don't blame him a bit if it's true. I listen to about everything he puts out there. I don't agree with everything he says but from a hunting standpoint I sure don't have a leg to stand on to question him. More so his takes on things like minerals that could prevent CWD, his fixation on being outraged by gays, and some mischaracterizations of what his competitors in the business do/say (like crimpers, no-till, brassica only plots, etc). I find his content to be very valuable.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Interesting take. So from what you've seen you feel that if the majority of hunters shoot the first deer they see it is likely to result in better age class than shooting the first 3.5 year old?

I'm sure it varies based on area but in MN where party hunting is a thing, it's common to do both. If the group has 8 tags and everyone shoots the first deer they see but there is at least 1 buck tag in the group, they are still out there hunting for that 3+ year old even having shot everything else already. This has made me of the opinion that more 2.5 YOs results in more 3.5 YOs and more 3.5 YOs results in more 4.5 YOs but don't have anything scientific to back it up.

On a side note, listened to the Land podcast with Don on Weds. Hearing the story again from Don, I don't blame him a bit if it's true. I listen to about everything he puts out there. I don't agree with everything he says but from a hunting standpoint I sure don't have a leg to stand on to question him. More so his takes on things like minerals that could prevent CWD, his fixation on being outraged by gays, and some mischaracterizations of what his competitors in the business do/say (like crimpers, no-till, brassica only plots, etc). I find his content to be very valuable.

I don’t know this don fella but I’m mildly curious about a man who can transition from big bucks to homosexuals. I’d like to see that segue.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I don’t know this don fella but I’m mildly curious about a man who can transition from big bucks to homosexuals. I’d like to see that segue.

He only does it on like 1/3 of his podcasts.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I don’t know this don fella but I’m mildly curious about a man who can transition from big bucks to homosexuals. I’d like to see that segue.

I mean, bucks hang out with other bucks most of the year, and despite breeding does during the rut, they typically can't stand to be around them lol. I didn't even need a segue

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I mean, bucks hang out with other bucks most of the year, and despite breeding does during the rut, they typically can't stand to be around them lol. I didn't even need a segue

Well after being married for 11 years and past the halfway mark on life I think I like the bucks strategy. Hang with your boys for 3/4 of the year and then when the mood strikes give as many female hell as you can run down!

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Interesting take. So from what you've seen you feel that if the majority of hunters shoot the first deer they see it is likely to result in better age class than shooting the first 3.5 year old?

I'm sure it varies based on area but in MN where party hunting is a thing, it's common to do both. If the group has 8 tags and everyone shoots the first deer they see but there is at least 1 buck tag in the group, they are still out there hunting for that 3+ year old even having shot everything else already. This has made me of the opinion that more 2.5 YOs results in more 3.5 YOs and more 3.5 YOs results in more 4.5 YOs but don't have anything scientific to back it up.

On a side note, listened to the Land podcast with Don on Weds. Hearing the story again from Don, I don't blame him a bit if it's true. I listen to about everything he puts out there. I don't agree with everything he says but from a hunting standpoint I sure don't have a leg to stand on to question him. More so his takes on things like minerals that could prevent CWD, his fixation on being outraged by gays, and some mischaracterizations of what his competitors in the business do/say (like crimpers, no-till, brassica only plots, etc). I find his content to be very valuable.

I think he is much more tolerable when he is a guest on someone else's podcast. I feel like he sometimes pulls a Jeff Sturgis and brings up the many years he has been doing whatever as an attempt to justify his stance.

 

[SwampCat]

Interesting take. So from what you've seen you feel that if the majority of hunters shoot the first deer they see it is likely to result in better age class than shooting the first 3.5 year old?

I'm sure it varies based on area but in MN where party hunting is a thing, it's common to do both. If the group has 8 tags and everyone shoots the first deer they see but there is at least 1 buck tag in the group, they are still out there hunting for that 3+ year old even having shot everything else already. This has made me of the opinion that more 2.5 YOs results in more 3.5 YOs and more 3.5 YOs results in more 4.5 YOs but don't have anything scientific to back it up.

On a side note, listened to the Land podcast with Don on Weds. Hearing the story again from Don, I don't blame him a bit if it's true. I listen to about everything he puts out there. I don't agree with everything he says but from a hunting standpoint I sure don't have a leg to stand on to question him. More so his takes on things like minerals that could prevent CWD, his fixation on being outraged by gays, and some mischaracterizations of what his competitors in the business do/say (like crimpers, no-till, brassica only plots, etc). I find his content to be very valuable.

About 25 years ago, our state enacted a 3 point rule - buck had to have at least three pts on one side to be legal. It took about five years to see a difference. That rule basically protects most 1.5 yr old bucks. It definitely led to more 2.5 and thus, more 3.5 and so on.

But, while that was a direct effect, I think just as important was an indirect affect. A lot of hunters were forced to pass a 1.5 yr old buck - something a lot of hunters had never done in their life. And now, those hunters were able to see with their own eyes, the shifting of age classes of bucks on their land. They started seeing some 3.5 year old bucks - which had been as common as sasquatch in years past. And these hunters, seeing more and more 3 yr old bucks, started passing some of even these old bucks because the hunters no longer thought a 3 yr old buck was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I have ten and twelve yr old grand daughters who would not think about shooting a 14” 8 pt. I did not shoot a 14” 8 pt until I was 45 yrs old.

Seeing more big deer results in folks passing more big deer.

But, cwd has been found in the states and the antler pt restriction has been removed in those areas and a lot of hunters in those areas have gone back to brown its down. But even with that - a lot of private land owners are sticking with quality deer management

 

[Hoytvectrix]

About 25 years ago, our state enacted a 3 point rule - buck had to have at least three pts on one side to be legal. It took about five years to see a difference. That rule basically protects most 1.5 yr old bucks. It definitely led to more 2.5 and thus, more 3.5 and so on.

But, while that was a direct effect, I think just as important was an indirect affect. A lot of hunters were forced to pass a 1.5 yr old buck - something a lot of hunters had never done in their life. And now, those hunters were able to see with their own eyes, the shifting of age classes of bucks on their land. They started seeing some 3.5 year old bucks - which had been as common as sasquatch in years past. And these hunters, seeing more and more 3 yr old bucks, started passing some of even these old bucks because the hunters no longer thought a 3 yr old buck was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I have ten and twelve yr old grand daughters who would not think about shooting a 14” 8 pt. I did not shoot a 14” 8 pt until I was 45 yrs old.

Seeing more big deer results in folks passing more big deer.

But, cwd has been found in the states and the antler pt restriction has been removed in those areas and a lot of hunters in those areas have gone back to brown its down. But even with that - a lot of private land owners are sticking with quality deer management

I can dig for the podcast if anybody is interested, But I listened to a MSU Deerlab podcast where they were discussing the effects of antler point restrictions on age structure of deer. They were mentioning that with antler restrictions, folks end up harvesting the best 2.5 year olds and leaving the rest. What ends up happening is that the stud young bucks end up getting harvested and the bucks with poor genetics make it to maturity. I can't remember if this was based on data that they had seen or just logic. But they're overall point was that it was better to harvest bucks based on their age to ensure they've expressed their genetic potential and not on the size of their rack.

You brought up a very interesting point though. Hunters seeing the positive effects of not pulling the trigger is beneficial regardless. I have spoken with some folks from Pennsylvania and they had a very similar observation when they introduced the antler point restriction.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I can dig for the podcast if anybody is interested, But I listened to a MSU Deerlab podcast where they were discussing the effects of antler point restrictions on age structure of deer. They were mentioning that with antler restrictions, folks end up harvesting the best 2.5 year olds and leaving the rest. What ends up happening is that the stud young bucks end up getting harvested and the bucks with poor genetics make it to maturity. I can't remember if this was based on data that they had seen or just logic. But they're overall point was that it was better to harvest bucks based on their age to ensure they've expressed their genetic potential and not on the size of their rack.

You brought up a very interesting point though. Hunters seeing the positive effects of not pulling the trigger is beneficial regardless. I have spoken with some folks from Pennsylvania and they had a very similar observation when they introduced the antler point restriction.

Beat me to it but I read about what I assume is the same study recently. Basket rack 6 or 8 point bucks are pretty common among 1.5 year olds where i've hunted whitetails so I could definitely see a 3 pt restriction hammering a lot of the better first year bucks while letting the spikes and forkies get to 2.5. A 4 point min per side would save a lot more bucks with potential but I can see why some may take issue with it becaues of an occasional deer that doesn't get more than 3 points on a side it's first few years or ever.

 

[bwoods11]

I use 8' high tensile wire . Have found over the years 0ne 8' panel much better than 2 4' panels tied together.

What state is this ?(8 foot fence)… no offense, but I’m not sitting on a farm with a 8 foot fence all around it ?

I enjoy the fair chase concept, the challenge, the strategy to outdo your neighbor. Bucks moving in during the rut… scenery is important too !

If you enjoy that type of hunt, I don’t blame you. Just not for everyone.

 

[Brian662]

I can dig for the podcast if anybody is interested, But I listened to a MSU Deerlab podcast where they were discussing the effects of antler point restrictions on age structure of deer. They were mentioning that with antler restrictions, folks end up harvesting the best 2.5 year olds and leaving the rest. What ends up happening is that the stud young bucks end up getting harvested and the bucks with poor genetics make it to maturity. I can't remember if this was based on data that they had seen or just logic. But they're overall point was that it was better to harvest bucks based on their age to ensure they've expressed their genetic potential and not on the size of their rack.

You brought up a very interesting point though. Hunters seeing the positive effects of not pulling the trigger is beneficial regardless. I have spoken with some folks from Pennsylvania and they had a very similar observation when they introduced the antler point restriction.

I heard the same podcast. Basically it's the same as high grading in a forest setting.

 

[SwampCat]

I can dig for the podcast if anybody is interested, But I listened to a MSU Deerlab podcast where they were discussing the effects of antler point restrictions on age structure of deer. They were mentioning that with antler restrictions, folks end up harvesting the best 2.5 year olds and leaving the rest. What ends up happening is that the stud young bucks end up getting harvested and the bucks with poor genetics make it to maturity. I can't remember if this was based on data that they had seen or just logic. But they're overall point was that it was better to harvest bucks based on their age to ensure they've expressed their genetic potential and not on the size of their rack.

You brought up a very interesting point though. Hunters seeing the positive effects of not pulling the trigger is beneficial regardless. I have spoken with some folks from Pennsylvania and they had a very similar observation when they introduced the antler point restriction.

The folks in our state who have a problem with the 3 pt restriction claim the very thing you bring up - the 3 pt restriction shifts more harvest to the top end 1.5 yr old deer - 8 pt and bigger 1.5 yr olds which would theoretically be the really nice deer of the future. My contention is - those same deer are getting shot anyway with no antler restriction - they are younger and dumber and more likely to be seen during season.

I agree - I would like to see a 4 pt restriction - but that would have been a big jump. As it turned out, when the restriction was first put in, total buck harvest dropped - but was back to the same numbers within five or so years. I actually think the biggest benefit was it made folks be a little more selective - and they saw the results - and became even more selective. I see very, very few hunters killing any 1.5 yr old deer now. It made most hunters even more selective than what the statewide restrictions required. 25 years ago, I never knew someone who had killed a 150” deer. Several are killed in my area every year now. Even on my 350 acres, we usually have a 150” every couple years now. Have two this year that are 150 or close to it.

 

[Baker]

What state is this ?(8 foot fence)… no offense, but I’m not sitting on a farm with a 8 foot fence all around it ?

I enjoy the fair chase concept, the challenge, the strategy to outdo your neighbor. Bucks moving in during the rut… scenery is important too !

If you enjoy that type of hunt, I don’t blame you. Just not for everyone.

Louisiana. I tend to be more interested in the deer's welfare that what hunters think or do. What I know for a fact is that the deer on my farm are as hard to hunt and challenging as anywhere its just that it is a far healthier herd in every way than most other places.

 

[SwampCat]

Louisiana. I tend to be more interested in the deer's welfare that what hunters think or do. What I know for a fact is that the deer on my farm are as hard to hunt and challenging as anywhere its just that it is a far healthier herd in every way than most other places.

My across the road neighbor has 1400 acres under high fence. I have been on his place a few times. MUCH easier to see a deer on my place than his place. A fence does not make a deer tame

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

My across the road neighbor has 1400 acres under high fence. I have been on his place a few times. MUCH easier to see a deer on my place than his place. A fence does not make a deer tame

Scaled yes. A small enclosure sure doesn’t help the whole wild and free experience

 

[Catscratch]

Interesting take. So from what you've seen you feel that if the majority of hunters shoot the first deer they see it is likely to result in better age class than shooting the first 3.5 year old?

I'm sure it varies based on area but in MN where party hunting is a thing, it's common to do both. If the group has 8 tags and everyone shoots the first deer they see but there is at least 1 buck tag in the group, they are still out there hunting for that 3+ year old even having shot everything else already. This has made me of the opinion that more 2.5 YOs results in more 3.5 YOs and more 3.5 YOs results in more 4.5 YOs but don't have anything scientific to back it up.

On a side note, listened to the Land podcast with Don on Weds. Hearing the story again from Don, I don't blame him a bit if it's true. I listen to about everything he puts out there. I don't agree with everything he says but from a hunting standpoint I sure don't have a leg to stand on to question him. More so his takes on things like minerals that could prevent CWD, his fixation on being outraged by gays, and some mischaracterizations of what his competitors in the business do/say (like crimpers, no-till, brassica only plots, etc). I find his content to be very valuable.

Yes, that's how I've observed it. "Brown it's down" gives a nice even distribution of kills across the fawn/button buck, does, and young buck populations. Several die but several survive. Older bucks tend to be a little smarter and nocturnal so I suspect in this system they have a little higher odds of surviving than younger deer so even though they occasionally get killed a significant percentage of them get to grow another year.
Conversely - In a system with a high percentage of hunters targeting larger bucks the hunters tends to be more patient in letting young bucks go until they see something decent. A higher percentage of 5+ year olds are harvested until the best deer are 4 year olds. Then the same until the best bucks seen are 3 year olds. Then the same until the best bucks around are 2 year olds. At this point people end up taking great genetic 2 and 3 year old deer rather than eat tag soup.
With all that said know that I live in a destination state that didn't have open boarders at the start of my hunting career. I've paid attention and watched the hunting climate change over the years. Also watched herd dynamics and age structure change significantly during this time. I may be way off on my take (and it may not relate even remotely close to other states) but I've seen significant changes.