How Will Gov Walker's Proposals Effect Sportsman

Steve, I agree with you on SO many levels. First, with regards to it not being about reps vs. dems. As you pointed out, each party seems to demonize the other so much that we as voters don't even think to look into the facts of the "other" party. You Dems that won't vote for a Rep and Reps that won't vote for a Dem, just based on the percieved and usually artificially constructed treachery of the other party. If people are just willing to listen to what one person says, why can't they start listening to what both people say? Why do things have to be "us vs. them"? This turns into saying that everyone and everything that isn't saying what "we" determine as correct is biased. So if everyone is wrong except us and those who agree with us, who do we listen to.... the people who pay us or can give us favors and advance our political careers.

This becomes a huge problem when we are talking about economic decisions based on science. We have our house science chair saying that a climate report "is biased", without even reading the entire report. Our former science chair cited the big guy upstairs as a reason for climate change not being possible. If you believe that I'm all for it, but that's not relevant to the evidence provided in scientific reports. Why can't we just start to actually believe the people who are experts in this science? Both of these guys are from Texas.... maybe their influenced by some oil companies? Both are entirely unqualified to evaluate scientific literature, yet they are still in these positions of power. We have the humane society claiming that thousands of wolves are being killed. Hunters are being portrayed as whimsically running through the snow in the U.P. shooting all of these helpless wolves. The actual % success of wolf hunts was about 2.0 (23 out of 1200). You have people supporting this based on their party lines, and not the facts. If we wanted to vote against it because there were some potentially unqualified people on the board that would be determining hunting seasons, that's another story, but it's not what the main advertisements were.

Whether it's about taxes, natural resources, education, or climate change, we need to evaluate everything and everyone individually and approach ALL of them with a healthy skepticism that we'd have if we were to be buying a used car. We need to kick the tires and look under the hood. Even if we trust the person we're buying it from, we need to check it out for ourselves regardless of our feelings towards the salesman. If it doesn't work, then we need to stop going to that dealership, and hold that person responsible. If it does work, we can keep going back there until it stops working. Just trusting in a party is a plan for failure, as we can see today. Politicians are there for themselves and those that are paying them in political favors or in money. As Steve said, it's not a Dem vs. Rep thing. I've stopped listening to any and all news that has anchors explicitly favoring a certain party, rather than hearing facts. I don't want to hear anchors give their opinions on issues and express them as being fact, I want someone to tell me both sides of the story, in an uninvolved 3rd party manner, and allow me to make my own decisions. I know that we'll never be 100% free from special interests and beliefs, but there is a big difference between Foxnews/MSNBC and CBS, or even NPR (although NPR is seen as "liberal" because the majority of its listeners are liberal, I've never found any blatant bias in their programs).


Well, there's my rant.
 
I had to step away for a few minutes and WOW guys! I have to say, great comments and no personal flinging or bashing. Well done, all too many great points have been brought up so far and every d*mn one of them is scary! As NoFo brings up, someone, somewhere is going to be on the opposite side of center for each and every one of us, the key is, as others have pointed out, no matter what side of center you are on, those elected officials that are on your side MUST be held accountable by members of their own, or the system becomes the dysfunctional laughing stock that it is at this point in time. As far as unbiased news goes, BBC news is about as down the middle as I have found and I think it's because those limey b*st*rds don't give two craps about how things go down over here, and have no "side" to take.
 
I have to say Rally, that's some of the best common sense political rant I've heard in quite some time. I wish I could flip a switch and put equal numbers of AVG. citizens of both " parties " in the halls of Congress and see how things would change. AVERAGE FOLKS - with no ties to any $$ influence. I'll bet there are more similarities than the power brokers of either party would ever be comfortable with - to the demise of their own political futures.
 
I flat out hate Fox News and MSNBC, and I mean HATE both of them. To me, they are worse than parasites. Instead of feeding off of others, they actually feed their viewers a diet of hate and fear, all based on lies, misleading info &/or by only really telling half the story. The fact that either can portray themselves as legit news sums up my frustrations with our politics. Sorry if I offend, and I am sure I will offend someone with this post, but both are nothing but special interest groups that strive to tell their views exactly what to think and feel on every political issue. They flat out sicken me, and the fact that "fair and balanced" Fox News is the most "trusted" and watched "news" is a big part of why I feel we have no hope of ever fixing our political system, and I'd be saying the exact same thing is MSNBC was the most "trusted" and watched "news."

I'm NOT a sheep and I'd really like to believe that most of the rest of America isn't either. Don't be so arrogant that you believe you have the right to TELL me what to think. Instead, give me as close as you can to unbiased facts from both sides and let me make up my own mind. Once someone turns 18, the right of anyone to tell them what they have to believe is gone. The only thing I hate worse than those 2 "news" channels are the conservative and liberal con artists on the radio. The fact that all of that is thriving in this country makes me sad for how ignorant we have become as a nation.

I have to agree with Whip. The BBC is about as unbiased in covering our politics as I've seen. I do think network news is slanted to the left, though no where remotely close to as much as the far right would like us to believe. Take BBC out of the mix and I actually think PBS's News Hour is about the best we have in this country. Sure, they lean a smidge left, but I think they are the one news outlet we have on TV that places a high importance on journalistic integrity and allowing their viewers to make up their minds. Network news is based way too much on ratings and barely scratching the surface.

Personally, I lean pretty firmly conservative, but I want to know what the left is thinking. I'm NOT arrogant enough to believe that they don't have some better ideas than "my side."

OK. I've got to get back to focusing on putting together the habitat plan I'm working on. Talking politics just makes me sad and then extremely frustrated, as I see most voters being focused on being the problem and their "side" winning and not the least bit concerned with fixing the catastrophic mess we're creating for our kids....See what you started, Whip?!:mad::p
 
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"although NPR is seen as "liberal" because the majority of its listeners are liberal, I've never found any blatant bias in their programs" Wow, really? The country is more dividied than ever as the great uniter has made race/class warfare his legacy. Imo, fox is right of center, cnn left, mslsd whacko left and npr too far left for me. 95% of all media is left.

If we're basing it off of who is listening, then yes, NPR is liberal. I guess I should have said as far as opinions go. I don't usually hear opinions from them, but more of just reports on stuff. I genuinely enjoy their guest speakers, but as far as "news" goes, I only like them for the international and science news. Generally I get a lot of my news from various sources on the internet. I like being able to find a story, and then type it into google to get 5 other reports on it. What I've found is that if I can read a few reports from each side, I'll usually be able to tell what is fact by determining what is mentioned in all of them. It takes a lot longer, but I've found that I often times learn a lot more.

Wiscwhip- It's funny you say that about BBC. I live near Detroit, and Windsor Ontario is within 10 miles from my house. I'll occasionally flip onto a Canadian news station while channel surfing and think that they are pretty down the middle. They'll then go on to talk about a house fire in God Knows Where Nova Scotia, at which point I usually switch to another station.

B&B- "I'll bet there are more similarities than the power brokers of either party would ever be comfortable with - to the demise of their own political futures." Not only do I agree with this, but I'd take it a step farther and say that there are more similarities than most of the constituency in either party would be comfortable to admit. I think we've become so polarized politically, at every level, that we now somehow believe that we'll never find any middle ground, simply because we don't think that it exists. It kind of eliminates a lot of peoples' ability to make an informed decision, and unfortunately somewhat undermines the basic principles of democracy.
 
P.S. this thread does give me a ray of hope, though....thanks for that

There's always hope, and I agree that this thread is a pretty good indication of that. We all need to be willing to shut up and listen as much as we ourselves talk.

I don't really identify as conservative or liberal, as I've found since I've been able to vote (5 years, since I'm still a young'n) my ballots have become more and more of a patchwork of parties. I look at the issues and how each person stands on them. If I feel a certain issue is more important than another, I'll give that one more weight in my decision. It's easier and easier to find people who's stances I KNOW I DON'T want, but it's also gotten harder to find people with positions that I KNOW I DO support.
 
Sorry Steve...:oops: The fact remains, we have to find a way to keep these idiots(ALL OF THEM) from creeping any further into our "deer woods".
 
Remove the obstacle, do what you want. Bad juju!
 
Not bad discussion and relatively tame... well done to all. I have learned after many years starting my early years in gov't research projects and migrating to private industry ...there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Many people can interpret the same set of data and come up with different conclusions. Every single news network slants info to influence - that is just how our news systems have developed. If you really want to know the truth on any topic you need to review data in depth.

You have to take the good with the bad in all politicians as not one of them will think exactly like us, but one will be more in line with our general views... Walker overall has been good for Wisconsin although not perfect. His recent set of proposals definitely leaves questions that need further investigation before I would support.

Fiscally conservative - socially moderate Co-existence and productive small efficient government can work by limiting the effects of the extreme left and right
 
I always felt the NRB was a buffer for an agenda. Imagine if the Madison Trek bike whacko got in with a liberal legislature? Replace the Dnr head and nothing could stop anything hunting/fishing/tribal rights related. Slippery slope here.

Couldn't agree more

Not bad discussion and relatively tame... well done to all. I have learned after many years starting my early years in gov't research projects and migrating to private industry ...there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

the first day of my first cartography class in college, the prof showed us 3 different graphs, using gas prices to show the inflation rate for the same 10 yr period. All 3 were starkly different and none of them were "lies." The prof's point was that numbers can be used to say nearly anything the presenter wants them to say. Our job as cartographers (graphs are actually part of cartography) was to tell the most unbiased truth we could.

Fiscally conservative - socially moderate Co-existence and productive small efficient government can work by limiting the effects of the extreme left and right

very well put
 
Holy crap, now I've seen everything. An internet discussion on politics that didn't rapidly descend down you-know-where. Cool. For the record, I also lean pretty far in one direction, but if you come at me from either side, and you're simply reading from your party's script, I will spot that a mile away and won't listen to a word you say.
 
Regardless of which way we lean most of us want the same goal so where do we go from here???? All I can say is that Walker did the same thing to our education system and with more resistance. If control over our natural resources can be changed, it will be a long battle.
 
I think you will find a lot of us Wisconsin folks support the changes in education system. That is a whole separate issue from what is being discussed about changes to control of our natural resources management. Government needs to be much more prudent spending our tax dollars and that is something that is widely supported. Wisconsin residents are highly taxed - particularly land owners! My kids don't deserve to inherit massive debts at the federal and state levels. Balanced budgets is what we should all agree to and then get down to serious discussions to make it happen.
 
I think you will find a lot of us Wisconsin folks support the changes in education system. That is a whole separate issue from what is being discussed about changes to control of our natural resources management. Government needs to be much more prudent spending our tax dollars and that is something that is widely supported. Wisconsin residents are highly taxed - particularly land owners! My kids don't deserve to inherit massive debts at the federal and state levels. Balanced budgets is what we should all agree to and then get down to serious discussions to make it happen.

The move to a more centralized control at the state and federal level by the politicians is what I was referring to. I was not referring to what happened a couple years ago, that is a different topic all together.
 
I'll be the devil's advocate here. What if this is a good thing? Consider the problems MN is having right now with getting any accountability at the DNR. Maybe not a perfect example. Consider federal agencies where they have law/rule making authority and they are not accountable to anyone at all like EPA, IRS, AG, Interior, etc. At least this way, you have a more direct shot at replacing someone in a position of power every 2-4 years.

I'm not a staunch advocate for anything here, just something to consider.
 
We all need to get together and have a beer.

I would LOVE to verbally discuss so many things mentioned in this thread that I won't even try to do it in a message here.

I'm impressed how long this discussion has gone on without any in-fighting. Let's keep it that way!

Just so you know where I stand:
Walker Selife.jpg

Thanks,

-John
 
We all need to get together and have a beer.

I would LOVE to verbally discuss so many things mentioned in this thread that I won't even try to do it in a message here.

I'm impressed how long this discussion has gone on without any in-fighting. Let's keep it that way!

Just so you know where I stand:
View attachment 3908

Thanks,

-John


Next time I'm in the U.P. I might just have to swing on over to Wisconsin and take you up on that!
 
Walker leads all opponents in GOP POTUS candidate polls by a landslide at this point. It is not even close. Google "Drudge Report Scott Walker" to see the results.
 
I'll be the devil's advocate here. What if this is a good thing? Consider the problems MN is having right now with getting any accountability at the DNR. Maybe not a perfect example. Consider federal agencies where they have law/rule making authority and they are not accountable to anyone at all like EPA, IRS, AG, Interior, etc. At least this way, you have a more direct shot at replacing someone in a position of power every 2-4 years.

I'm not a staunch advocate for anything here, just something to consider.
I'm not really sure how even the devil would think that turning total control over to the group with the agenda(the WI DNR) and it's would be self appointed leader(Walker), who also signs their paychecks, without the checks and balances that the Natural Resources Board provides, could be good for anyone or anything in the environment. At that point there would be absolutely zero accountability for any of them. As NoFo stated in Post #34, the NRB was specifically created to provide just that watchdog group to oversee those that would overstep the boundaries of sensible resource use and management. That is why all 7 members have multiple degrees in wildlife and resource related management. There is no good that can come of doing away with NRB's ability to stop poor management and land use. The freeze on buying new properties is one thing, it really only affects those that recreate on public property. The power grab from the hands of the NRB is a completely different and very serious issue, it affects everyone living in WI and even surrounding states, lots of folks are downstream of us, if you get my meaning. If it were not for the NRB, there would already be a mine in the Wolf River watershed. Financial interests will eventually dictate all resource related agendas if they have no watchdog group like the NRB. Wisconsin pretty much created and has always been at the forefront in conservation and wildlife management and has/had a great system in place with the DNR, CC, and NRB, and over the years it is slowly crumbling into a mess due to politicians overstepping their bounds.
 
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