Growing fruit trees faster?

[Bowsnbucks]

Will fertilizing help the tree produce more fruit?

I've heard from the head of Penn State's Fruit tree dept. that it depends on your soil. Fertilizer at the wrong time / wrong dose can cause more VEGETATIVE growth (limbs & water sprouts) than fruit. Check into more info / advice from experts at a university that specializes in apple / fruit production. Penn State, Rutgers, Cornell, U. Mass., Purdue, U. Illinois, Mich. State, U. Vermont are all good choices.

 

[Catscratch]

Cat, is summer heat or drought a limiting factor on your tree growth?

Second question, what is your natural soil pH?

I am thinking of apples of course. Perhaps you were considering other trees.

In my light soil, prairie type environment, I only find wild crabs near waterways. Very occasionally an apple sized fruit.


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1 - Hot and dry in the summer. Upper 90's low 100's for a couple of months. Likely to get 1 or 2 total rains in that same time. Not sure if that qualifies as limiting for fruit trees.

2 - 7ys ago when I started planting fruit trees my soil test showed a pH of 6.1. Buffer index of 6.5. I've made no soil amendments.

All trees cages with weed barrier. I'm reading mulch turns into compost and is good for trees but never put organic mulch on weed barrier. Mulch the soil, gravel the barrier. Wonder if I should remove the barrier and go heavy with mulch (and a light fert program). I have wood ash! That's an easy one.

 

[yoderjac]

I think bare root trees and or even potted ones, are so shocked that the first few years they are just trying to keep alive.

Then we get impatient……..and fry them with too much love/ fertilizer. Especially nitrogen.

Phosphorous, Iron, sulfur if pH is to high is what I address in the first few years.

Year three is when one should get a comprehensive fertilizer program.

A chain is only strong as it’s weakest link. So micro nutrition, competition, pH, H2O needs are as important as the big three in fertilizer.

With the exception of rootmaker trees. I've found the continue growing almost immediately and don't have the typical years of sleep, creep, and then leap. I attribute it to the fact that the root system is undisturbed and they only have to adapt to the differences in micro climate.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[sandbur]

1 - Hot and dry in the summer. Upper 90's low 100's for a couple of months. Likely to get 1 or 2 total rains in that same time. Not sure if that qualifies as limiting for fruit trees.

2 - 7ys ago when I started planting fruit trees my soil test showed a pH of 6.1. Buffer index of 6.5. I've made no soil amendments.

All trees cages with weed barrier. I'm reading mulch turns into compost and is good for trees but never put organic mulch on weed barrier. Mulch the soil, gravel the barrier. Wonder if I should remove the barrier and go heavy with mulch (and a light fert program). I have wood ash! That's an easy one.

I think the hot, dry summers would be hard on apple trees except in certain micro climates.


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[Catscratch]

I think the hot, dry summers would be hard on apple trees except in certain micro climates.


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They are planted on top of a hill in full sun until late afternoon. Can't change that. There is probably a reason we don't have apples native here.

 

[Catscratch]

Let me ask you guys another question that is related. Do any of you compost to use on your trees? Always wanted a compost but never took the time to do it. Might be worth the time if I thought it would be good for my trees... Plus you can add your ash to a compost right?

 

[bigboreblr]

catstratch, waht kind of soil do you have. When planting new trees if you have low moisture retention soils, maybe ammend towards that

Soil Additives For Water Retention - BAC Online

Read about the best soil additives for water retention and why it's so important for plants to be in soil that is nutrient rich and retains water effectively.

www.bacfertilizers.com

I work with controls for a living. It would be pretty easy to put a solar drip system. Fill a 275 gal tote, a day that makes 95 deg F, open a 12v solendoid for a period of time, then the cycle resets for the next day. Could easily water 6 trees 5 gallons each for a week without refilling.

 

[sandbur]

They are planted on top of a hill in full sun until late afternoon. Can't change that. There is probably a reason we don't have apples native here.

Apples seem to be very uncommon here as opposed to native/ naturalized crabs. That is why I favor crabs and crab apple rootstock.

Is your location in the natural M. ioensis range?


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[Catscratch]

catstratch, waht kind of soil do you have. When planting new trees if you have low moisture retention soils, maybe ammend towards that

Soil Additives For Water Retention - BAC Online

Read about the best soil additives for water retention and why it's so important for plants to be in soil that is nutrient rich and retains water effectively.

www.bacfertilizers.com

I work with controls for a living. It would be pretty easy to put a solar drip system. Fill a 275 gal tote, a day that makes 95 deg F, open a 12v solendoid for a period of time, then the cycle resets for the next day. Could easily water 6 trees 5 gallons each for a week without refilling.

Clime stony silty clay loam, and Florence cherty silt loam are what the soil maps show. I believe mostly Florence chert where I have my fruit trees and plots.
A solar drip system would be pretty handy, but the orchard is close enough I can run a hose (long hose).

Apples seem to be very uncommon here as opposed to native/ naturalized crabs. That is why I favor crabs and crab apple rootstock.

Is your location in the natural M. ioensis range?


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I just called up a range map for it. Looks like I'm quite a ways away from it.

 

[Telemark]

What is everyone’s thoughts on putting ash down from a wood stove? I have read it helps a lot, and increases PH, but then I read not to use wood ash. The internet is so confusing when you try to research stuff.

I use it extensively.

 

[Telemark]

Let me ask you guys another question that is related. Do any of you compost to use on your trees? Always wanted a compost but never took the time to do it. Might be worth the time if I thought it would be good for my trees... Plus you can add your ash to a compost right?

I make a lot of compost for my trees, berry bushes, and vegetables. I like the Berkeley method. I also have a big pile of wood chips that I periodically add grass clippings to. I use this in my compost or as a mulch. I believe this is the best soil amendment bar none, and I grow my vegetables directly in it with a no-dig method.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Should I wait till the spring to put the ashes down or is it like lime that I can put down as I make them? I have over 60 trees so I can spread out the application over the whole winter/spring.

 

[Angus 1895]

With the exception of rootmaker trees. I've found the continue growing almost immediately and don't have the typical years of sleep, creep, and then leap. I attribute it to the fact that the root system is undisturbed and they only have to adapt to the differences in micro climate.

Thanks,

Jack

I agree that younger seedlings seem to adapt quicker without much slowdown.

My go to pot for seedlings is the XX large plastic soda cups from the convenice stores.

The styrofoam works well/ perhaps better in colder months but isn’t as durable as the plastic.

personally I don’t believe stunting or “ pruning “ the tap root is where I want to go , considering the arid climate of the lemhi valley.

 

[bigboreblr]

Derek, my guess here. Ashes change pH right away. With srping thaws, you get a top layer of melted ground that gets flooded with that ash, making a localized high pH area. I would ash lightly this time of year, or put a decent bit where you plan on putting a new plot or new trees.

I got pretty heavy clay, thiscould be good, this could be bad. When I prerp the hole in my backyard I dig down to 3ft right under the tree. The hole is a bit smaller than 5 gallon bucket sized. I dig it up, lightly ammend it to break up the clay a bit, or mix it up with some of the soil on the top. I put a shovel or two worth of soil back at a time and chop it up well with the shovel. I break itup, but try to still keep it dense.

It,l allow the tree to make a tap root qucker. However, my backyard gets flooded which is is a bit now. Earlier this year I Really opened up a drainage channel in the yard. The concern against digging deep is it created a flooded pocket where roots could rot more easily. Even more so because I can supply water to them easily. However, folks who have drought issues, this could help alot.

Another soil thing I do up in my sandy northern camp. I bring up heavy clay to mix with my tree spots. The good part about clay, i has high ion exchange capacity. This is why some places can take more fertilizer and need more lime to change the pH.

 

[yoderjac]

I agree that younger seedlings seem to adapt quicker without much slowdown.

My go to pot for seedlings is the XX large plastic soda cups from the convenice stores.

The styrofoam works well/ perhaps better in colder months but isn’t as durable as the plastic.

personally I don’t believe stunting or “ pruning “ the tap root is where I want to go , considering the arid climate of the lemhi valley.

Actually, I found the opposite, but my maximum age was 2 or 3 growing seasons. My wildlife trees got no after care once planted in the field and younger root-pruned trees do not have a large enough root system to get sufficient water during our summer period. My trees were all started from nuts or seeds indoors under lights in the winter. The trees that did best for me were planted after the roots filled 3 gall root pruning containers. By then the root systems were deep enough to get plenty of water during the summer. My fasted growing trees were transplanted twice (18s to 1 gal RB2, to 3 gal RB2) and had filled the 3 gals after a single growing season. Average trees, I overwintered and kept on my deck for a second growing season in 3 gals before planting.

Root pruning is not for every climate. It is a trade-off between faster growth and a denser root system for the grower providing water and transplanting to larger and larger containers until the root system is large enough so that it ha enough reach to access water during dry periods. I would not use root pruning in an arid climate. There I want a tap root to ensure access to water and I'll sacrifice slower growth for ensured survival during drought. In my area, root pruning is a great boost and produces great trees faster. Because the root system is so dense and has so many terminal roots, it is very efficient at delivering water and nutrients.

The point of my past was this . For bare root trees, we get the sleep, creep, and leap effect. For smooth container trees, you get circling and j-hooking roots that eventually limit the tree as they constrict themselves unless you manually prune them at planting time. If you do that, they are just like a bare root tree with the root system disturbed. With my root maker trees, the container unwraps and I slide the entire root system, medium and all, into the hole just large enough in diameter to fit. It is completely undisturbed and begins growing immediately. The lateral roots quickly penetrate my heavy clay soil that retains moisture well, so even though the medium dries out quickly, by the time our drier period hits in the summer, a 3 gal tree has plenty of access to water. Here, the top few inches dry out making planting directly from 18s a waste of time.

So, every technique needs to match the conditions. I've done both root pruning and direct seeding here. Root pruning works best for me, but that doesn't mean it will work best in all cases.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tree Spud]

They are planted on top of a hill in full sun until late afternoon. Can't change that. There is probably a reason we don't have apples native here.

Have you tried a root dip sorbent for moisture retention?

SorbaMAX Root-Dip

SorbaMAX Root-Dip is a long lasting and horticultural-friendly water control product. These super absorbing crystals meet the demands of outdoor conditions, and soil conditions. Superior water retention and designed for long-lasting usability. SorbaMAX performs excellent in dry environments...

doubleavineyards.com

 

[Catscratch]

Have you tried a root dip sorbent for moisture retention?

SorbaMAX Root-Dip

SorbaMAX Root-Dip is a long lasting and horticultural-friendly water control product. These super absorbing crystals meet the demands of outdoor conditions, and soil conditions. Superior water retention and designed for long-lasting usability. SorbaMAX performs excellent in dry environments...

doubleavineyards.com

No I haven't tree spud. Reason being is that even though we are hot and dry for some of the yr we are also water logged for some of the yr. Some springs it's so wet that we have water seeping out of the hillsides. Figured retention would rot roots on those occasions.

 

[yoderjac]

I think the root dip probably provides reasonable assurance when planting bare root trees. It may help some as they are stressed trying to adapt and reestablish a root system. However, it is not a long-term solution. Once re-established, the roots soon outgrow it. I've used it on the few bare root trees we have planted. I'm not sure it is really needed but it was pretty cheap compared to the price of the trees. If one tree lives that would have otherwise died, it was worth the price.

 

[Angus 1895]

Actually, I found the opposite, but my maximum age was 2 or 3 growing seasons. My wildlife trees got no after care once planted in the field and younger root-pruned trees do not have a large enough root system to get sufficient water during our summer period. My trees were all started from nuts or seeds indoors under lights in the winter. The trees that did best for me were planted after the roots filled 3 gall root pruning containers. By then the root systems were deep enough to get plenty of water during the summer. My fasted growing trees were transplanted twice (18s to 1 gal RB2, to 3 gal RB2) and had filled the 3 gals after a single growing season. Average trees, I overwintered and kept on my deck for a second growing season in 3 gals before planting.

Root pruning is not for every climate. It is a trade-off between faster growth and a denser root system for the grower providing water and transplanting to larger and larger containers until the root system is large enough so that it ha enough reach to access water during dry periods. I would not use root pruning in an arid climate. There I want a tap root to ensure access to water and I'll sacrifice slower growth for ensured survival during drought. In my area, root pruning is a great boost and produces great trees faster. Because the root system is so dense and has so many terminal roots, it is very efficient at delivering water and nutrients.

The point of my past was this . For bare root trees, we get the sleep, creep, and leap effect. For smooth container trees, you get circling and j-hooking roots that eventually limit the tree as they constrict themselves unless you manually prune them at planting time. If you do that, they are just like a bare root tree with the root system disturbed. With my root maker trees, the container unwraps and I slide the entire root system, medium and all, into the hole just large enough in diameter to fit. It is completely undisturbed and begins growing immediately. The lateral roots quickly penetrate my heavy clay soil that retains moisture well, so even though the medium dries out quickly, by the time our drier period hits in the summer, a 3 gal tree has plenty of access to water. Here, the top few inches dry out making planting directly from 18s a waste of time.

So, every technique needs to match the conditions. I've done both root pruning and direct seeding here. Root pruning works best for me, but that doesn't mean it will work best in all cases.

Thanks,

Jack

If you really bothered to read my post.

u would have read I am in an arid climate.

Merry Christmas

john

 

[bigboreblr]

Root Dip,

2019 was a not so good year for my NYSDEC seedlings. Some stuff I got was real dry. Oddly enough, the next year the local water and soil conservation district starting using root-dip on their resale items. They'd basically get a bunch of stuff from the state nursery and resale one by one. They got a bad batch of dry seedling in 2019, and starting to use them the next year for their sale.

Instead of seeing dry roots, I get a bag filled with nice looking jello stuff. The last 2 years, everything I buy from them has done great! White pines ontop of a heavy clay hill are doing well. Red dogwood planted here n there at camp,

Maybe I am getting a bit better at transplanting since I started to buy annually in 2017, but I do feel the ones I have got with gel are better.

I purchased agri-gel last month with my fedco scion order. Was tempted to use it a few days after it came at camp for balsam fir transplanting.