Growing fruit trees faster?

[yoderjac]

If you really bothered to read my post.

u would have read I am in an arid climate.

Merry Christmas

john

I did read the post, and I did see you were in an arid climate. That is why I made it clear that different techniques apply better to different regions.

I think sometimes when we read a response that references one of our posts, we tend to take it as a personal conversation and push-back against what we said. Perhaps sometimes that is true, but more often, including my response, it was simply to share different experiences with other readers and contrast them. This lets other readers get a full picture so they can identify the techniques best suited for their individual situations.

Merry Christmas!

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

We ALL live in different regions, and so each response has to be tempered with that in mind. Soils and climates vary, as do the responses and advice / outcomes of what's said on here. What works in one place may not work in another. Best to mention your state, zone, soil type, and overall climate so others can "take or leave" any advice posted here.

I agree with what Jack said (above ^^^) about sharing habitat experiences, so others have some varied and contrasting responses to make their own decisions on their situations. What doesn't suit / work for one guy may be beneficial to a few other guys.

 

[Garrett S]

I have not found persimmons to respond much to fertilization. They are a native tree here. They are slow growers. I've seen no evidence that special care for a persimmon produces fruit any faster or in more abundance once it is old enough to produce fruit. I believe there are hormonal changes a tree goes through when it begins to produce fruit. I'm not sure if a faster growing tree changes that hormonal balance.

Impatience and persimmons don't mix well. The only exception I've found to that is field grafting native trees an inch or two in diameter. I think it is the very well established root system combined with the hormonal state of the scion from a fruit producing tree that allows them to produce fruit in the third leaf after grafting.

Thanks,

Jack

What are your persimmon tricks?


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[yoderjac]

What are your persimmon tricks?


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No big tricks. I'm just blessed to have persimmons grow natively on the farm. Most seem to be male. Each time I find one, I bark graft it to female. This thread shows a lot of my work with persimmons; https://habitat-talk.com/threads/sex-change-operation-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5547/ Once I graft a tree, I usually see the first persimmons in the third leaf after grafting. It still takes time for them to produce in volume. Because I have them growing natively, I generally don't do this, but others have done it with success. They by small seedlings of common persimmons from the state forestry or game departments. They are cheap. They then go plant them and do nothing special. No fancy hole, just a planting bar and no special protection. In most cases, deer don't seem to bother persimmon trees. They then just let them go. When those trees hit about 1" in diameter, they graft them with female scions of their preferred variety or just from a wild female tree.

When folks find a large persimmon bearing fruit, they tend to want to release it. If you do this, do it slowly. They are large and spindly because they were reaching for the sun with the surrounding competing trees. They can become brittle and top heavy and snap in the wind if you remove the protection. So, when releasing a persimmon, it is best to remove only a few trees each year and let it adapt to the changing wind conditions.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

I did exactly what yoder is talking about; bought 25 seedlings from Kansas Forestry and 3 improved varieties from a nursery. Did this 3ish yrs ago? Intent is to eventually graft onto the seedlings. It's been slow!

I caged about half of the seedlings. Interestingly the non caged trees are behind the caged ones even though I've seen zero signs of browsing or damage to the non caged. Haven't figured that one out yet but it is what it is.

 

[yoderjac]

I did exactly what yoder is talking about; bought 25 seedlings from Kansas Forestry and 3 improved varieties from a nursery. Did this 3ish yrs ago? Intent is to eventually graft onto the seedlings. It's been slow!

I caged about half of the seedlings. Interestingly the non caged trees are behind the caged ones even though I've seen zero signs of browsing or damage to the non caged. Haven't figured that one out yet but it is what it is.

One thing I've noticed with trees, even those that are not preferred browse species: Deer are not grazers like cattle. They are browsers. While they do stop and feed on a quality food source, generally, they will nip a bit here and there as they go. If I plant a tree, any tree, in another quality food source (like a clover field) and don't protect it. Deer will browse it. With preferred browse species like apples, they will generally kill and unprotected tree. With non-preferred browse species like persimmons or even pawpaws, deer just can't resist a taste as they walk by. I see little if any evidence of browsing on these trees, but just like you, they seem to be behind protected trees. I think they are browsed so lightly that we don't even notice it, but it does add up. The reason I think it is deer browsing is that I also see a difference in trees planted in a food source compared to trees planted in fescue. Even though the clover is providing N for the seedling, it is also attracting deer. The fescue is not benefiting the seedling at all, but those seedlings seem to grow slightly faster.

The reason, I would not protect them is the cost factor. If I was just doing a few tree, I'll probably buy persimmons from a nursery and protect them. However, when buying in bulk from a state resource at a very low cost per tree, I just can't see spending more money and time on tubes than on planting the trees. Tubes have their own issues, and caging is just out of the question for bulk. I could see someone putting up a gallagher-style efence around an entire area of persimmons if they have one they are using for other purposes.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Angus 1895]

I did read the post, and I did see you were in an arid climate. That is why I made it clear that different techniques apply better to different regions.

I think sometimes when we read a response that references one of our posts, we tend to take it as a personal conversation and push-back against what we said. Perhaps sometimes that is true, but more often, including my response, it was simply to share different experiences with other readers and contrast them. This lets other readers get a full picture so they can identify the techniques best suited for their individual situations.

Merry Christmas!

Jack

First of all I apologize for being abrupt.

but thinking about this opposite findings of successful seedlings vs need to keep them potted for three years

perhaps inhibiting the tap root requires secondary growth for years to compensate for the tap roots loss.

I believe potted plants roots suffer from heat stress in my area in the summer compared to being in the earth.

but I have to irrigate. I only been getting 10 inches of precipitation a year. I do get supplemental irrigation from my association.

so maybe seedlings need irrigation and thats the difference

I plan on direct seeding this year to compare their growth.

I am beginning to believe the less U repot and handle them, the better they will do.

regards

john

 

[yoderjac]

First of all I apologize for being abrupt.

but thinking about this opposite findings of successful seedlings vs need to keep them potted for three years

perhaps inhibiting the tap root requires secondary growth for years to compensate for the tap roots loss.

I believe potted plants roots suffer from heat stress in my area in the summer compared to being in the earth.

but I have to irrigate. I only been getting 10 inches of precipitation a year. I do get supplemental irrigation from my association.

so maybe seedlings need irrigation and thats the difference

I plan on direct seeding this year to compare their growth.

I am beginning to believe the less U repot and handle them, the better they will do.

regards

john

John,

First, no apology necessary. I would likely be direct seeding just like you if I lived in an arid region like you. I also completely agree with you on repotting trees grown in regular plastic pots. Each time you repot, you disturb the root system and they have to recover.

As far as a root pruning container system goes, we use very chunky media. Most of the container is initially filled with voids. As the tree grows and roots are air pruned, it forces upstream branching. When they are ready for transplant, the container is mostly roots. When you unwrap the container or remove the tree (d (depending on container type), the root system is completely undisturbed. It goes in the next sized container and continues to grow with no recovery period.

Nothing is free. With root pruning, we are trading off faster top growth and much greater root density and efficiency for less reach. While a root pruned tree is more efficient at uptake, it can only reach what it can reach. So, without supplemental water, the root system has to be deep enough to reach water during dry periods until the root system has time to grow. If soil dries out deeper than the root system, one needs to provide supplemental water until the root system is deep enough. In my area, no supplemental water is required and the root system from a 3 gal RB 2 container is deep enough no supplemental water is necessary. That is why it worked so well for me.

I certainly believe you know better than me what will work well in your region.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Angus 1895]

Thanks

I am getting very excited about the trees.

I can’t believe the deer that are starting to bed amongst the plastic tubes.

imagine when they got shade and mast to munch on!

This web sight has been a great help and source of inspiration.