gowroom Seedlings have odd colored leaves, any suggestions ?

[TxA&Mhunter]

I have these acorns under led grow lights as an experiment... they have been there just shy of 2 weeks... the leaves have an odd hue tonthem.
The first pic is of bur oak and second is a sawtooth oak.

 

[Prof.Kent]

Normal color for oak leaves when very young. Probably not enough sunlight for full photosynthesis.

 

[TxA&Mhunter]

Shouldn't 300 W worth of a LED panel be enough light or do I need more ?

 

[silver_yummies]

As yoderjac told me, make sure the light source is as close as possible. Like 2” away.

 

[TxA&Mhunter]

As yoderjac told me, make sure the light source is as close as possible. Like 2” away.

I'll lower light see what happens

 

[Prof.Kent]

The intensity of the light is inversely proportional to the square of the distance.

 

[TxA&Mhunter]

The intensity of the light is inversely proportional to the square of the distance.

Should I be looking at the PPFD ? If so what's tv ideal value?
Also should I be giving them rest or let them have 24 hrs of light to try and push growth?

 

[TreeDaddy]

Color is not odd

They will turn bright green soon

bill

 

[TxA&Mhunter]

bill, I appreciate your input! Inguess guess ill have to wait and see. I'm testing indoor start as a trial run.
My plan next year is to start in early next year... almost immediately For white oaks, and reds As early as I can to see how much year one growth I can get.

I picked up a pair of these lights from a college kid super cheep. Do y'all think they need more or will this be enough?
Here is a pic is of the setup in my unfished room (very crude). Second pic is of the make of the light.

I've got two setups like this going just want to see halls thoughts.

 

[cavey]

Looks normal, just young give it some time

 

[Barndog56]

If they're like veggies than they need 8 hours of dark each day.

 

[yoderjac]

Shouldn't 300 W worth of a LED panel be enough light or do I need more ?

First, those leaves don't look abnormal to me, but I don't grow many oaks. 300 Watts means nothing. The question is how many lumens are being output from the light and how far it is from the tree. Nothing wrong with using LEDs except for the cost relative to fluorescents and that is changing over time.

If you are going to grow other plants indoors where a significant portion of their lifespan is indoors, there are benefits to full spectrum lighting, but that is generally not the case when starting trees a few months early indoors. It is a tiny fraction of the life of the tree and much of the energy during a large part of that time is coming from the nut, not from photosynthesis.

When there is a problem starting trees indoors, light is the last thing I would suspect. Watering, proper pH, salt buildup, disease, and even insects tend to be the source of problems I see.

If this is your first so, but sure to gradually acclimate the trees to sunlight once the weather breaks and you take them outdoors. Sunscald is a common problem if you try to push it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Apple Junkie]

I've started oaks like you're doing. Mine looked like that at first too, and they did fine as they got bigger. Now, some are really nice big 10 year old trees. Lookin' good!

 

[TxA&Mhunter]

Apple junkie i hope I have the same success you did! They still have odd hue to them but we will
Chalk that up to being normal...

My next question is when do I move them to rootmaker 1 gal pots? I have read that the "right" timing will keep the tree growth going with no stall, but it did not say how long lol.
I'm assuming it's early but just trying to plan ahead.
The Root system are starting to look like this

 

[yoderjac]

Apple junkie i hope I have the same success you did! They still have odd hue to them but we will
Chalk that up to being normal...

My next question is when do I move them to rootmaker 1 gal pots? I have read that the "right" timing will keep the tree growth going with no stall, but it did not say how long lol.
I'm assuming it's early but just trying to plan ahead.
The Root system are starting to look like this

The general time frame to move trees from 18s to 1 gal root pruning containers is 12 to 16 weeks. Presuming you are using promix or similar professional mix in the 18s, there will be a lot of empty space in the mix as a result of the perlite and vermiculite. This space allows room for roots to grow. You will notice that when you first plant the nut, it does not take long after you water the cell before water comes dripping out of the holes in the bottom. As the roots grow and begin to fill those voids in the mix, water will infiltrate the mix less effectively. Eventually the cells will become difficult to top water. You will put water on the cell an it will sit there and eventually soak in. You will add more and it will eventually soak in. You should be watering until the water drips out of the lower holes. As you repeat this it will take longer and longer for the water to drip out.

For most trees it will take 12 to 16 weeks for this to occur. Dr. Whitcomb says that if you want to maximize growth, it is better to transplant a little on the early side than a little on the late side. When you get ready to transplant, start with your best looking tree. After watering it, you can squeeze the sides of the cell a little and then lift it out by the trunk. The entire cell should lift out with no chunks of medium falling off. There should be sufficient roots to capture all the medium in the cell. Small bits can fall of but not chunks and the root ball should stay intact. If you have chunks falling off, don't sweat it, just transplant that tree. Wait another week and try your next best looking tree. Repeat the process until chunks stop falling off.

Hope this helps,

Jack

 

[TxA&Mhunter]

The general time frame to move trees from 18s to 1 gal root pruning containers is 12 to 16 weeks. Presuming you are using promix or similar professional mix in the 18s, there will be a lot of empty space in the mix as a result of the perlite and vermiculite. This space allows room for roots to grow. You will notice that when you first plant the nut, it does not take long after you water the cell before water comes dripping out of the holes in the bottom. As the roots grow and begin to fill those voids in the mix, water will infiltrate the mix less effectively. Eventually the cells will become difficult to top water. You will put water on the cell an it will sit there and eventually soak in. You will add more and it will eventually soak in. You should be watering until the water drips out of the lower holes. As you repeat this it will take longer and longer for the water to drip out.

For most trees it will take 12 to 16 weeks for this to occur. Dr. Whitcomb says that if you want to maximize growth, it is better to transplant a little on the early side than a little on the late side. When you get ready to transplant, start with your best looking tree. After watering it, you can squeeze the sides of the cell a little and then lift it out by the trunk. The entire cell should lift out with no chunks of medium falling off. There should be sufficient roots to capture all the medium in the cell. Small bits can fall of but not chunks and the root ball should stay intact. If you have chunks falling off, don't sweat it, just transplant that tree. Wait another week and try your next best looking tree. Repeat the process until chunks stop falling off.

Hope this helps,

Jack

Yes sir that's super helpful and very much appreciated.
They have been under the lights just under 6 weeks.
Currently the burr oaks are about 10-12 inches tall and
Most of the sawtooth are about 18-20 inches curious to see how high I can get the sawtooth in the first year of growth.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Jack has been an "enabler" to many of us addicts who love growing baby trees.......

bill

 

[yoderjac]

Yes sir that's super helpful and very much appreciated.
They have been under the lights just under 6 weeks.
Currently the burr oaks are about 10-12 inches tall and
Most of the sawtooth are about 18-20 inches curious to see how high I can get the sawtooth in the first year of growth.

Earlier in the thread you asked about lights. While the color of the leaves are not a symptom, height can be problematic. When you evaluate growth you should look at a combination of height, leaf mass, and caliper (which is all you can see above the soil). If you have insufficient light intensity, trees will grow taller to try to reach the light. We see this lankiness with most trees started indoors in containers even with good lighting. It is not uncommon for me to use safety flags (from TSC) as support when trees are young to keep them from flopping over and to train them to a central leader. How much of this is necessary also depends on the type of tree you are growing. Trees grown from larger nuts tend to grow faster when young as they have more energy stored in the nut than a tree grown from a small nut or seed.

The best example I have seen (I can't seem to find the thread right now) was several years back when I started a bunch of pawpaw from seed. I started mine indoors under lights. Another guy started his at about the same time, also in 18s but he started them in a heated greenhouse without artificial light. This is something Dr. Whitcomb specifically warns against. The low angle and low intensity of the sun during winter months doesn't provide sufficient light intensity.

Come time to transplant to 1 gal RB2s, his pawpaws and mine looked very similar in top growth. Both looked very healthy and green. Pawpaw are slow growing and neither his nor mine required support. However when he pulled his out to transplant they had very tiny root systems with very poor root development. Many did not survive. Mine had great root balls and the 18s were filled with roots.

Checkout the chestnut on this thread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...h-rootmakers-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5556/

It is quite a tall tree for a single season, but the more important thing is that height was achieved along with the caliper. I believe there is another tree in that thread that is much shorter because I did not prune an early branch. However when you look at the total leaf mass and caliper below the branch they are equivalent trees in terms of growth.

My point is simply that height can be a good thing when taken in the context of caliper and leaf mass, but without the combination, it may indicate a problem with insufficient light intensity. Hopefully you will be in good shape.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[The Fishman]

Most of the sawtooth are about 18-20 inches curious to see how high I can get the sawtooth in the first year of growth.

My son grew some sawtooths under lights earlier this year for a high school science experiment. After the experiment, I gradually started putting them outside before transplanting some of them to pots. I was surprised in how little root development the tallest indoor trees had. The roots on the tallest trees were less than an inch long. Approximately 8 sawtooths have been outside for almost six weeks now. They are now in full sunlight and the shorter trees (14-16") have caught the trees that were 19-20" after the experiment, but had poorly developed roots. In Jack's post above he discusses this also and the importance of caliper to support the tree in wind and also rain.

My guess is that the trees will be over 30" and possibly 36" before I transplant them this fall. Yours should probably be similar. Make sure to expose them gradually to sunlight once you move them outside. Good luck and have fun.

 

[yoderjac]

My son grew some sawtooths under lights earlier this year for a high school science experiment. After the experiment, I gradually started putting them outside before transplanting some of them to pots. I was surprised in how little root development the tallest indoor trees had. The roots on the tallest trees were less than an inch long. Approximately 8 sawtooths have been outside for almost six weeks now. They are now in full sunlight and the shorter trees (14-16") have caught the trees that were 19-20" after the experiment, but had poorly developed roots. In Jack's post above he discusses this also and the importance of caliper to support the tree in wind and also rain.

My guess is that the trees will be over 30" and possibly 36" before I transplant them this fall. Yours should probably be similar. Make sure to expose them gradually to sunlight once you move them outside. Good luck and have fun.

Was your son using root pruning containers and sufficient artificial light? By the way, here is the thread on maximizing growth with root pruning containers: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?search/4195/&q=maximizing&c[title_only]=1&o=date There is a Dunstan chestnut I used for an example that shows that when things go right you can really get good growth.

Thanks,

jack