Fall clover planting timing

[Derek Reese 29]

Hello everyone,
I will be planting several different clover varieties in the upcoming weeks. Some are annuals (MRC/Balansa), some are biannuals (Mammoth red) and some are perennials (alsike, alice, aberlasting).
I am in Northern PA (growth zones 5/6, with a first frost date of around mid October).
Just wondering when I should plant the clover, which I hope to also plant at the same time with rye?
I am shooting for a mid to late August timeframe, to allow the clover to get rolling for ~2 months before the frost hits, but am worried about the rye getting too tall before the start of PA's archery season (early October).
Is it ok to plant the rye later (end of August/early Sep) after planting the clover earlier in August? (with cultipacking over the new clover and newly seeded rye)
This will be my first time planting anything besides rye and turnips in the fall. Note all seeds will be broadcast.
Thanks in advance for your replies!

 

[Bassattackr]

Yep, plant with your Rye. Move up a week from September 1st every 100 miles you are north of the I-70 corridor.

Can always frost seed any missing patches that appear in March. That’s the great thing about fall clover establishment, you get two chances..

 

[spartan huntr]

I would stagger them personally. If you wait on Clover that late you will not actually establish enough growth maturity to attract. Although germination is initially quick, I find that the initial germination is about 50% of what i am looking for. I need initial germination/late germination and some spread. So, i go early August (in Michigan) for Clover and then I over seed the Rye in early-mid Sept.

This gives me better clover and then a rye that seems more palatable. If i put Rye in too early it is not effective (deer like it less). And if i put the clover in too late it isnt as thick as I want it for hunting season.

By no means am i saying there is a right way or wrong way to do this. This is just my preferred approach. I always over-seed Rye, by itself, in early-Mid September (all of my plots). In fact, at my camp we have a mix we use that has some Oats in it too. Nothing secret. Just a 75-25 mix of Rye/Oats. We call it our Oops blend (that is one name we have that doesn't need censorship - ha). We essentially use it on holes in plots, bare areas, any place where we didn't get good food plot germination. It is very effective as a "cover" for my mistakes. ha!

Good luck.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I would stagger them personally. If you wait on Clover that late you will not actually establish enough growth maturity to attract. Although germination is initially quick, I find that the initial germination is about 50% of what i am looking for. I need initial germination/late germination and some spread. So, i go early August (in Michigan) for Clover and then I over seed the Rye in early-mid Sept.

This gives me better clover and then a rye that seems more palatable. If i put Rye in too early it is not effective (deer like it less). And if i put the clover in too late it isnt as thick as I want it for hunting season.

By no means am i saying there is a right way or wrong way to do this. This is just my preferred approach. I always over-seed Rye, by itself, in early-Mid September (all of my plots). In fact, at my camp we have a mix we use that has some Oats in it too. Nothing secret. Just a 75-25 mix of Rye/Oats. We call it our Oops blend (that is one name we have that doesn't need censorship - ha). We essentially use it on holes in plots, bare areas, any place where we didn't get good food plot germination. It is very effective as a "cover" for my mistakes. ha!

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice! I was thinking of something along those lines, but just was not sure of the timing..Also do you pack your grains or just broadcast before a rain? My mix for the grains will be ~75lbs of winter rye and 50 lbs of winter wheat on top of a mix of 12 lbs mammoth red/12 lbs MRC/6lbs alsike clover in a half acre...I know thats way overboard on the amounts for both the grains and the clover but I want this to be thick going into the spring when I plan to overseed with some perennial clovers (maybe aberlasting or ladino) into the field. It's an existing hayfield right now so I want the clover/grains to smother any hay that doesn't get whacked by my spraying.

 

[jsasker007]

Sounds like a great combo

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Why not plant the perennial clover with the annual clovers this year? Not sure what the benefit of waiting would be?


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[Diesel5610]

I am on the western NY/PA border in your area and we have planted clover from the first week of August through the first of September. I always used to stress about the same thing, having an ideal stand of clover and also having a cover crop that was palatable to the deer that first fall. After doing this for 25 years I can tell you we spend a lot of time overthinking this. Honestly the deer always seem to utilize it just fine no matter when we plant it and the clover plot does better the earlier it can get established before your first frost. I have tried staggering the two plantings like you are suggesting and it just never turned out great. The rye suppresses the weeds and it just seems to give the weeds a jump start with the clover. I would be more concerned with the plot being ready to plant and getting everything in when the plot is weed free and ready to go so you get good soil to seed contact with rain in the forecast. August 15 is my ideal date to get a clover plot in our area. If you are really concerned about the cover crop being palatable I would shoot for August 15- September 1st, but you will have to stress about an early frost the closer you get to September first in our area. I always look at it as the clover will be around 3-5 years or more so I am more concerned about that getting a good start. I am planning on putting in 2 plots between the 10th and 15th this year as long as the weather cooperates, mostly because that is when I will be able to rent the no-till drill I will be using to plant it and when I had time during a busy summer to get those plots ready to plant. My only clover plots that have been a bust were during drought conditions when the new clover just never got enough moisture to survive.
I would pack the grain in if possible. I have done both ways and packing it in is always a better stand. I am not afraid to spread before a good rain if I am forced to but I also don't expect it to be quite as good a stand as if it were drilled/disked in or packed in. I would also plant the ladino or aberlasting now wit the rest of the clover and just overseed any weak spots in your plot in the spring. Those clovers will use this fall to get their root systems established.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I am on the western NY/PA border in your area and we have planted clover from the first week of August through the first of September. I always used to stress about the same thing, having an ideal stand of clover and also having a cover crop that was palatable to the deer that first fall. After doing this for 25 years I can tell you we spend a lot of time overthinking this. Honestly the deer always seem to utilize it just fine no matter when we plant it and the clover plot does better the earlier it can get established before your first frost. I have tried staggering the two plantings like you are suggesting and it just never turned out great. The rye suppresses the weeds and it just seems to give the weeds a jump start with the clover. I would be more concerned with the plot being ready to plant and getting everything in when the plot is weed free and ready to go so you get good soil to seed contact with rain in the forecast. August 15 is my ideal date to get a clover plot in our area. If you are really concerned about the cover crop being palatable I would shoot for August 15- September 1st, but you will have to stress about an early frost the closer you get to September first in our area. I always look at it as the clover will be around 3-5 years or more so I am more concerned about that getting a good start. I am planning on putting in 2 plots between the 10th and 15th this year as long as the weather cooperates, mostly because that is when I will be able to rent the no-till drill I will be using to plant it and when I had time during a busy summer to get those plots ready to plant. My only clover plots that have been a bust were during drought conditions when the new clover just never got enough moisture to survive.
I would pack the grain in if possible. I have done both ways and packing it in is always a better stand. I am not afraid to spread before a good rain if I am forced to but I also don't expect it to be quite as good a stand as if it were drilled/disked in or packed in. I would also plant the ladino or aberlasting now wit the rest of the clover and just overseed any weak spots in your plot in the spring. Those clovers will use this fall to get their root systems established.

Thanks for the advice! I think I am still going to split the plantings, with the clovers and brassicas going in this weekend, then the rye going in closer to labor day (probably last week or two in August if I can).
I will also be packing the rye, as I have seen so many times that the clover I run over with the wheeler just pops back up. Also seeded some ladino, aberlasting and wetland alfalfa last night into an existing plot, then mowed. The clover in that plot was outstanding, but it was also all biannual clover, so I figured adding some perennials would only strengthen it in the years to come.
Thanks again!

 

[Derek Reese 29]

so here's an update: got the clover and brassicas in ~2.5 weeks ago, then spread a bushel of winter rye and ~80 lbs winter wheat on Sunday.
I never got to even run the packer over it, as I had the wrong hitch in and didn't feel like waiting.
Then Ida hit yesterday and I snuck up to check it out after the rain ended just before dark...
Wondering how long I should wait until spreading urea (or if I need to?)
Thanks!

 

[Nightvision]

You’re supposed to hit it with urea 30-45 days after planting. Not sure how much it will help you after a frost has hit.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

You’re supposed to hit it with urea 30-45 days after planting. Not sure how much it will help you after a frost has hit.

I guess I'll wait at least a week...things are getting squeezed into a few weeks up here....I guess if I hit it the 2nd weekend in September I can have 2 weeks of growth before archery season opens...
(the plots also 50 yards from my backdoor so I can do it in an hour....)

 

[FarmerDan]

I keep looking at this. I have to ask. Isn't there a good probability of a hard freeze impacting your plan? I know you said mid-October and I don't know where you are in northern Pennsylvania. But, I have frost dates much earlier. I wouldn't bring it up, but I'm working on a project today where frost-freeze dates are important. While I have the book open.....

Not to put too fine a point on it, the published and assumed dates are from temperatures and occurrences in "civilized" locations (I use the word loosely) while our food plots are out in the wild and many times at higher elevations than where those published dates come from.

The other thing, when we talk about frost-freeze dates were talking about a game of chance. There's a probability connected to it. Often when we say the first date is...." it's the date where there's a 50% probability before and after. To the Farmer's Almanac's credit, they use 30% which pulls the date back about 7 to 10 days when compared to the later date.

I'd be thinking hard about laying down urea now. Young tender growth could freeze...but, again, I realize I might be putting too much into consideration.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I keep looking at this. I have to ask. Isn't there a good probability of a hard freeze impacting your plan? I know you said mid-October and I don't know where you are in northern Pennsylvania. But, I have frost dates much earlier. I wouldn't bring it up, but I'm working on a project today where frost-freeze dates are important. While I have the book open.....

Not to put too fine a point on it, the published and assumed dates are from temperatures and occurrences in "civilized" locations (I use the word loosely) while our food plots are out in the wild and many times at higher elevations than where those published dates come from.

The other thing, when we talk about frost-freeze dates were talking about a game of chance. There's a probability connected to it. Often when we say the first date is...." it's the date where there's a 50% probability before and after. To the Farmer's Almanac's credit, they use 30% which pulls the date back about 7 to 10 days when compared to the later date.

I'd be thinking hard about laying down urea now. Young tender growth could freeze...but, again, I realize I might be putting too much into consideration.

Im just a bit north and east of Williamsport, so a bit south of some of the pages you sent....I had a mid-October first freeze and that field faces due South, so I am hoping that will help if we get a cold snap...
that being said.. I am already very pleased with how everything is progressing so I am not too worried about getting too much more growth after fertilizing...
If I can get ahold of some urea I could do it next week...
Next question is...is it ok to use a pull behind spreader behind a 4 wheeler with everything at this stage of growth or do I need to just put it out by hand with my Solo spreader?
thanks!!!

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Little urea-application update....added urea on 9/7 (by hand...couple fills of the spreader to put out 50 lbs on my 1/2 acrea brassica/rye/clover)
1st 2 pics are on the date of application....couple decent brassicas and a fair amount of clover and some rye


Next pictures are yesterday...1 week post-urea..what a bump!





I have never really had great success with brassicas, but this year I think it all came together with timely rain (and lots of it)...along with starting off by spraying twice to kill about 95% of the existing grass....
Also, I watched the weather/dates closely and tried to plant with a rain event forecasted within 1-2 days of seeding....Just to note, this whole field was done by broadcasting....
Can't wait to start hunting this field once archery season opens here in PA.

 

[Nightvision]

Looks great. Let us know how the deer take to it. Brassicas are nitrogen hogs and respond well to it as you can see.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Looks great. Let us know how the deer take to it. Brassicas are nitrogen hogs and respond well to it as you can see.

yeah I just moved my camera to cover the field last night....my issue is that within 500 or less yards of that brassica field there are tons of ag (beans, corn, hay, alfalfa)..im hoping to get the deer interested right around Halloween or so (after all those crops are hopefully in a barn somewhere)....and hoping the age old story of buck chases doe ends up with a close shot opportunity...

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Looks great, My deer wouldn't eat any of it. Hopefully yours will.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Looks great, My deer wouldn't eat any of it. Hopefully yours will.

hoping they begin to ignore the ag around once it either gets harvested or starts to turn color (soybeans are mostly yellow already and corn is going brown too).

 

[Dogshooter]

Little urea-application update....added urea on 9/7 (by hand...couple fills of the spreader to put out 50 lbs on my 1/2 acrea brassica/rye/clover)
1st 2 pics are on the date of application....couple decent brassicas and a fair amount of clover and some rye
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Next pictures are yesterday...1 week post-urea..what a bump!
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I have never really had great success with brassicas, but this year I think it all came together with timely rain (and lots of it)...along with starting off by spraying twice to kill about 95% of the existing grass....
Also, I watched the weather/dates closely and tried to plant with a rain event forecasted within 1-2 days of seeding....Just to note, this whole field was done by broadcasting....
Can't wait to start hunting this field once archery season opens here in PA.

Looks great!

 

[cjmt29]

Couple questions. I have 2 plots with Whitetail Imperial. I over seeded some Ladino and fertilized. I've been controlling weeds with bushhogging all summer, but with all the rains some wild grasses are making a run at moving in. Would you try to mow or hit them with Clethodim and Butyrac 200. Just wasn't sure the impact those 2 poisons would have on seed that's just been spread. Thanks for the input.