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Dustan chestnuts
- Thread starter bornagain62511
- Start date
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
Good stuff BKY. The NY group is SUNY-ESF. They were successful with their wheat gene insertion and blight resistant american chestnut. They have backcrossed their Darling 58 (a line of transgenic american) with a pure wild american. That offspring has successfully produced nuts with about 50% (I think actual was 56 of 115 samples) showing blight resistance in controlled innoculations, just like it should be. This summer they have successfully proven blight resistance in a transgenic chinkapin. The transgenic american is going through the FDA approval process. I may have some info slightly off since this is from past reading/discussions with the folks working on these and I am attempting to share from my memory.
We will see a blight resistant pure american in our lifetime...hopefully in less than 5 years.
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Hello, do you notice bigger nuts and later drop time from dunstans compared to Chinese. Thanks
H20fwler
5 year old buck +
Just by a week or two, my Dunstan pods have split and are just about to drop nuts. I don't notice much difference in size nuts.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I also don't think you can compare Dunstan and Chinese directly. With dunstan, if you are talking about dunstan as a variety, you have a fixed set of characteristics. If you are using Dunstan as a trade name, I believe they are seed grown trees from Dunstan nuts. While not fixed like a named variety, the genetic variety is likely pretty small given that chestnuts are wind pollinated.
Chinese really refers to the group of trees that originated in China. They have been bred for specific characteristics and there are lots of Chinese varieties. I would guess (just a guess) that there is probably as much variability between Chinese varieties as there is between most Chinese varieties and Dunstan. So, when H20fwler says his Dunstans drop a week or two later, that is compared to the particular Chinese trees he has. I believe Auburn patented a couple varieties called Au Buck III and IV that drop later, even into November and as far as I can tell they are fully Chinese.
I think chestnuts are truer to seed than say apples, at least as far as characteristics that are important to wildlife go. If you are looking for specific drop times, I would start with specific varieties and perhaps their progeny.
Thanks,
Jack
Chinese really refers to the group of trees that originated in China. They have been bred for specific characteristics and there are lots of Chinese varieties. I would guess (just a guess) that there is probably as much variability between Chinese varieties as there is between most Chinese varieties and Dunstan. So, when H20fwler says his Dunstans drop a week or two later, that is compared to the particular Chinese trees he has. I believe Auburn patented a couple varieties called Au Buck III and IV that drop later, even into November and as far as I can tell they are fully Chinese.
I think chestnuts are truer to seed than say apples, at least as far as characteristics that are important to wildlife go. If you are looking for specific drop times, I would start with specific varieties and perhaps their progeny.
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Interesting. I would actually prefer more smaller nuts than fewer larger ones. For chestnuts, I would guess that the characteristics of the mother tree would be fairly representative of how the progeny would behave. My guess is that some of the larger dunstan nuts I've had would be too big for all turkey except perhaps mature gobblers. More smaller nuts would provide equal nutrition but could be shared by turkey as well as deer.
Thanks,
Jack
bornagain62511
5 year old buck +
I bought some Dustan chestnuts from Chestnut Ridge of Pike County and they are delicious! Just as sweet if not sweeter than the genuine American chestnuts I have picked up and eaten for a number of years around here. I have several hundred 2 year old seedling American chestnuts growing from seed that I collected from the trees that I were probably planted at least 50 years ago or more close to my home. The biggest trees are at least 30 inches in diameter. I'm going to plant at least several hundred of the Dustan Chestnut seeds from Chestnut Ridge Pike County since they are at least as sweet if not sweeter and the nuts are on average around twice as big as the American chestnuts and they have good blight resistance. And the American chestnuts appear to have the blight starting to kill some of them just these last few years now. They've done amazingly well surviving temperatures as low as 40 below Fahrenheit last winter and also in the mid 1990s, and until recently they were not affected by the blight because of the long distance from here to the native range of American Chestnuts.
Here's a picture of the comparison between the Dustan chestnuts from Chestnut Ridge and the American chestnuts that I collected near home.
Here's a picture of the comparison between the Dustan chestnuts from Chestnut Ridge and the American chestnuts that I collected near home.
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Dunstan are mostly Chinese. I have visited an orchard in Danby NY that has 30 year old Dunstan and some other varieties. They are cold hardy in that area which is zone 5a and has seen -25F. Some of the trees have sunscald which is probably an issue with them being on the edge of their growing range. Another thing is that while they displayed no blight for many years, they have some pretty big cankers now that the trees seem to be tolerating. Some cankers had mostly encircled limbs as large as 6".
The guy running the Missouri agroforestry chestnut orchard is pretty sure all the Chinese genetics we have in the US are from south China, which is why they struggle past -20F.
Tom Wahl from Red Fern Farm said that the "Mossbarger" variety has reportedly survived -40F. He also likes the Qing, Gideon and Luvall's Monster for cold hardiness. Luvall's is pollen sterile so you need something else to go with it. Empire Chestnut / Route 9 Cooperative is selling all those varieties right now. Even if you just buy the mixture of seed and plant them real tight at like 5-5 or 10-10 and then keep culling them I bet you will find some that are hardy enough.
Recent genetic testing has shown that Chinese chestnut needs 8-11 genes for blight resistance. That means virtually all hybrids with American will be inferior to pure Chinese, and that the backcross seeds the ACF has been proudly selling for nearly $100 a pop aren't worth the price tag. Luckily the NY chapter is on the brink of getting approval for their transgenic tree. If you join the NY chapter, or probably just get in touch with SUNY-ESF, they are giving away 10,000 trees for free if/when they are approved. Also if you join the NY chapter the president will mail you pure american seeds for free.
The guy running the Missouri agroforestry chestnut orchard is pretty sure all the Chinese genetics we have in the US are from south China, which is why they struggle past -20F.
Tom Wahl from Red Fern Farm said that the "Mossbarger" variety has reportedly survived -40F. He also likes the Qing, Gideon and Luvall's Monster for cold hardiness. Luvall's is pollen sterile so you need something else to go with it. Empire Chestnut / Route 9 Cooperative is selling all those varieties right now. Even if you just buy the mixture of seed and plant them real tight at like 5-5 or 10-10 and then keep culling them I bet you will find some that are hardy enough.
Recent genetic testing has shown that Chinese chestnut needs 8-11 genes for blight resistance. That means virtually all hybrids with American will be inferior to pure Chinese, and that the backcross seeds the ACF has been proudly selling for nearly $100 a pop aren't worth the price tag. Luckily the NY chapter is on the brink of getting approval for their transgenic tree. If you join the NY chapter, or probably just get in touch with SUNY-ESF, they are giving away 10,000 trees for free if/when they are approved. Also if you join the NY chapter the president will mail you pure american seeds for free.
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bornagain62511
5 year old buck +
thanks for the info! most winters we only get down to -20 to -25 F around here. Rarely do we get down to -30 to -40 F around here, but it does happen occasionally
IkemanTx
5 year old buck +
Good stuff BKY. The NY group is SUNY-ESF. They were successful with their wheat gene insertion and blight resistant american chestnut. They have backcrossed their Darling 58 (a line of transgenic american) with a pure wild american. That offspring has successfully produced nuts with about 50% (I think actual was 56 of 115 samples) showing blight resistance in controlled innoculations, just like it should be. This summer they have successfully proven blight resistance in a transgenic chinkapin. The transgenic american is going through the FDA approval process. I may have some info slightly off since this is from past reading/discussions with the folks working on these and I am attempting to share from my memory.
We will see a blight resistant pure american in our lifetime...hopefully in less than 5 years.
Hopefully it doesn’t get bogged down in the regulatory process. I have seen a lot of uptick in the anti-gmo crowd regarding this specific project recently. I think the transgenic pure American Chestnut is our best bet to get our historic trees back. The crosses, however small, all seem to have DRASTIC effects on growth form.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
I agree with all your points!...and I am seeing/hearing the same things from people working directly on approval. However, their reaction was predictable....the closer your are to success the more people who try to bring you back down.
I was sent this article: GMO chestnut. I thought it was a really good perspective on the GMO chestnut and the fact that gene transfers occur ALL THE TIME. The several paragraphs that follow this point in the article had an impact on my thinking:
Yes, the backcrosses have drastic effects on growth form and other aspects that we don't necessarily easily observe. As I posted in the 15/16th source thread, it will be very very low probability to collect all gene sets from 8-9 chromosomes (remember it needs a DOUBLE set to inherit resistance) just from backcrossing. About 38,000 genes for C. dentata. 15/16th tree = 93.75 pure denata...hypothetically! That also means 6.25% other genes. That is a significant 2300+ genes of C. mollissima. The Transgenic Chestnut is 99.999% genetically identical to wild american. Not a duplicate but a near replicate.
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NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
Hey. I think you live close. I am in northern Potter Co, PA near Coudersport. Going to the meeting next Saturday?
. Good stuff. I think you mean it needs specific genes from 8-11 of the chromosomes for resistance.
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Yup, I am going. Tully is only 45 minutes from me. Will you be there?
I think the anti-GMO stuff is like a religion, and it will just be impossible to persuade some people.
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
Very much agreed,...even with the best data and best science they will not change. They have closed their mind in this area and their opinion is based on their feelings. But I bet they use google everyday and let google sell their usage data because they don't even understand that either.
I want to go but my son has an event in southern PA. I am just not sure I can make it. Can you take good notes for me and share?
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mikmaze
5 year old buck +
how do you figure that Dunstans are mostly Chinese? I thought common conventional knowledge said they were 15 parts American, One part Chinese? I picked about 15 of my own Dunstans last week and will save about 5 for ploanting, and have 50 more on the way that I ordered as seed. I will be getting these ready for growing, and trying to figure my own cost effective way of getting these going. Hope to put 20 more on my NJ property, and the balance on my NY property. I'll be tree tubing them all.
Ok, read bnack and I gues you mean dunstan is more than the transgeneric, fair enough. I would Love to get on board and do field trials for them, how/ where do I sign up?
Ok, read bnack and I gues you mean dunstan is more than the transgeneric, fair enough. I would Love to get on board and do field trials for them, how/ where do I sign up?
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Sure thing.
cavey
5 year old buck +
I dont think they can really pin down a percentage of parenthood anymore as they are collecting nuts from 2nd and 3rd generation crosses. But I dont think they have ever been 15 to 1 american over chinese.
This is from Chestnut hill:
In the early 1950s, James Carpentar of Salem, Ohio, discovered a large living American chestnut in a grove of dead and dying trees. A member of the Northern Nut Growers Association, Carpentar was very impressed with the tree as it showed no evidence of blight infection. Over the next several years, he inoculated the tree with active blight spores and mycelia, but failed to induce any infection in the tree.
Carpentar sent budwood to Dr. Robert T. Dunstan, a fellow member of NNGA and well-known plant breeder in Greensboro, N.C. Dunstan grafted the scions onto chestnut rootstock and the trees grew well. He cross-pollinated the American grafts with a mixture of 3 superior USDA released Chinese chestnut selections: "Kuling," "Meiling," and "Nanking."
Article written about Dr. Robert T. Dunstan
In 1962, seedling trees from the first cross began to bear. Selecting the individuals with the most hybrid characteristics, Dr. Dunstan crossed them back to both the American and Chinese parent trees. The resulting second generation was moved to Alachua in north central Florida, on our nursery property, where the trees have been growing and bearing every year for almost 50 years! These hybrid trees have been grown throughout much of the eastern United states, and almost none have every died from the blight.
Starting in 1984 we planted a grove of 500 trees using both grafts from the best of the second generation trees and a third generation of seedling Dunstans, many of which are now over 50' tall and 16-20" in diameter.
BLIGHT RESISTANCE AND BEST NUT PRODUCTION
The second generation of Dunstan Hybrid Chestnuts shows a variable combination of American and Chinese traits. They are not a particular % of American or Chinese parentage.
We have chosen several cultivars that have the very best combination of nut and tree characteristics – blight resistance and the production of large high quality nuts. These Dunstan Chestnuts are the only chestnuts to ever receive U.S. Plant Patents. We only produce trees grown from seed from this orchard of the best trees. Because the parent trees all are blight resistant and produce large, sweet tasting nuts, a very high percentage of these seedling trees also bear excellent quality nuts. Grown correctly, they will form a good timber tree capable of producing beautiful rot-resistant saw timber.
