CWD conversations that are worth the time to watch

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Here is where I stand. "Pissed off" I'll get into that later.

Let me start with, sometime in the late 90's or very very early 2000's when we still got deer hunting magazines in the mail I read a dooms day article about WI having discovered CWD and how it could eventually wipe out all deer in the country. 25 plus years later every state with deer still has deer including WI.

Now that you ask me the direct question "Am I a proponent of doing nothing" and I honestly consider that question, the answer is yes I am. Because doing something is not just doing anything. It's sending snipers out to eliminate a herd. I am against the kill them to save them idea.

Here is what we've been told.

All deer can get CWD (no resistance to it in any deer)
CWD kills all infected deer.
It's caused by a bent something called a prion.
A prion is not alive but lives forever in the soil and is taken up in virtually everything the deer eat, drink or sniff.
A prion can't be killed and remains viable to spread the disease virtually forever.
Prions are spread by deer, hunters moving carcasses, deer farms moving deer etc. so containment is not possible.

If all those things are true at once, what's the point, it's going to eventually kill all the deer.

But are all those things true? Are there any deer that may have some resistance?
NDA wrote an article on why releasing captive CWD resistant deer wouldn't work. Granted one of the biologist quoted in the article said the deer are not resistant they just live longer with CWD. But even that is resistance on some level. What happened to there is no resistant deer? Why would NDA publish an article saying it wouldn't work? I can give one reason but won't.

Is it possible there are wild deer out there with resistance or immunity. Experts say no. I have no idea. But I don't believe anyone else Knows for sure either, even the experts.

All that to say I don't like the snipers and I don't think the experts know anything for sure.


Now for the why I'm pissed.
My farm is on the MO/IA border. Iowa had a case about 10 miles north of us. No cases in MO. Yet MO decided to establish a CWD hot zone (with no positive deer on our side of the line). Mandatory testing the first 2 days of rifle had been in effect for years, Mandatory testing to donate to share the harvest also.

MO wanted to snipe on our farms. Close neighbors said no but I'm certain some in the zone said yes. The first year we got hit hard with EHD. No change to the kill them all cure. MO gave out 10 free any deer tags to anyone with 5 acres in the zone and even contributed to the cost of butchering. Mandatory testing on those also. This past year 5 free extra tags for everyone willing to use them. Mandatory testing.

Guess what ended in our county this year? Mandatory testing during the first 2 days of rifle season. Guess why, No positive cases in the county. All that killing and all that testing and no CWD +. yet they still gave out 5 extra tags in the hot zone (that's actually cold)

It's going to take a few years for us to get out herd back because of EHD yet they are handing tags out like crazy to kill them to cure them in a zone with no positive cases.

And I'm supposed to trust the experts....No thanks. As far as I'm concerned the experts handled our "hot" zone as well the experts handled
covid.

Good response. And that’s why I say do nothing as well. Or at least until the time comes we have an answer to what would work. The effects of being wrong are too detrimental to just indiscriminately kill.

Your story is one I’ve heard similar to in the past. Even @Mortenson has a similar story. Killing off a perfectly fine herd just in case thy end up dying…ive heard more real world impacts from government than from the actual disease. I’ve heard experts tell me it’s bad but I’ve yet to hear any single story from anyone I have a contact with where that’s reality. Maybe I don’t cast a wide enough net? I’ve got a buddy in the original cwd hot zone in wisc. Been in his family for generations. Hunting is as good as ever.

 

[swat1018]

Here is where I stand. "Pissed off" I'll get into that later.

Let me start with, sometime in the late 90's or very very early 2000's when we still got deer hunting magazines in the mail I read a dooms day article about WI having discovered CWD and how it could eventually wipe out all deer in the country. 25 plus years later every state with deer still has deer including WI.

Now that you ask me the direct question "Am I a proponent of doing nothing" and I honestly consider that question, the answer is yes I am. Because doing something is not just doing anything. It's sending snipers out to eliminate a herd. I am against the kill them to save them idea.

Here is what we've been told.

All deer can get CWD (no resistance to it in any deer)
CWD kills all infected deer.
It's caused by a bent something called a prion.
A prion is not alive but lives forever in the soil and is taken up in virtually everything the deer eat, drink or sniff.
A prion can't be killed and remains viable to spread the disease virtually forever.
Prions are spread by deer, hunters moving carcasses, deer farms moving deer etc. so containment is not possible.

If all those things are true at once, what's the point, it's going to eventually kill all the deer.

But are all those things true? Are there any deer that may have some resistance?
NDA wrote an article on why releasing captive CWD resistant deer wouldn't work. Granted one of the biologist quoted in the article said the deer are not resistant they just live longer with CWD. But even that is resistance on some level. What happened to there is no resistant deer? Why would NDA publish an article saying it wouldn't work? I can give one reason but won't.

Is it possible there are wild deer out there with resistance or immunity. Experts say no. I have no idea. But I don't believe anyone else Knows for sure either, even the experts.

All that to say I don't like the snipers and I don't think the experts know anything for sure.


Now for the why I'm pissed.
My farm is on the MO/IA border. Iowa had a case about 10 miles north of us. No cases in MO. Yet MO decided to establish a CWD hot zone (with no positive deer on our side of the line). Mandatory testing the first 2 days of rifle had been in effect for years, Mandatory testing to donate to share the harvest also.

MO wanted to snipe on our farms. Close neighbors said no but I'm certain some in the zone said yes. The first year we got hit hard with EHD. No change to the kill them all cure. MO gave out 10 free any deer tags to anyone with 5 acres in the zone and even contributed to the cost of butchering. Mandatory testing on those also. This past year 5 free extra tags for everyone willing to use them. Mandatory testing.

Guess what ended in our county this year? Mandatory testing during the first 2 days of rifle season. Guess why, No positive cases in the county. All that killing and all that testing and no CWD +. yet they still gave out 5 extra tags in the hot zone (that's actually cold)

It's going to take a few years for us to get out herd back because of EHD yet they are handing tags out like crazy to kill them to cure them in a zone with no positive cases.

And I'm supposed to trust the experts....No thanks. As far as I'm concerned the experts handled our "hot" zone as well the experts handled
covid.

My thoughts exactly. How many times have humans, usually the government, thought they knew better than mother nature and in the end figured out their actions only made the situation worse. Sometimes these scenarios can't be undone.

Here in Florida they decided to straighten out the Kissimmee River between Lake Kissimmee and Lake Okeechobee. After 30-40 years they realized the created a huge disaster by channelizing the river. They have tried to fill it in, tear out locks, reopen the original channel, etc. The damage was done and it can never be completely like God meant it to be. And the billions and billions spent on the "cure" and now just trying to get back where they came from.

 

[SwampCat]

OK, I am active enough on my land I know how much browse pressure there is. I can't harvest deer according to what my browse survey shows, so what difference does it make? My hunting zone is nearly the size of a whole county, there is certainly nuance within that large of an area. In fact my property only several miles away has a much lower deer density (same hunting zone). Because of the regs, I can only harvest two does all season between the two properties, insane!

So the regulations allow you to kill one on a regular license on your property and allow you to purchase two more tags for a total of three deer. No one else can hunt your property?

 

[SD51555]

That Arkansas situation still stinks. Why would CWD reduce the herd there all of a sudden, when there's been no documented reduction from CWD anywhere else ever? My guess is it isn't CWD, and you probably really don't want to know the answer.

The question I would be asking, is there a unique reason some entity would want the deer dead in that area more than anywhere else, or have the unique ability to pull it off?

 

[BenA]

That Arkansas situation still stinks. Why would CWD reduce the herd there all of a sudden, when there's been no documented reduction from CWD anywhere else ever? My guess is it isn't CWD, and you probably really don't want to know the answer.

The question I would be asking, is there a unique reason some entity would want the deer dead in that area more than anywhere else, or have the unique ability to pull it off?

Wyoming also has shown a 10% annual population decline when prevalence rates get to 40%

Chronic Wasting Disease Drives Population Decline of White-Tailed Deer - PMC

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) is an invariably fatal transmissible spongiform encephalopathy of white-tailed deer, mule deer, elk, and moose. Despite a 100% fatality rate, areas of high prevalence, and increasingly expanding geographic endemic ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Tangler]

Here is where I stand. "Pissed off" I'll get into that later.

Let me start with, sometime in the late 90's or very very early 2000's when we still got deer hunting magazines in the mail I read a dooms day article about WI having discovered CWD and how it could eventually wipe out all deer in the country. 25 plus years later every state with deer still has deer including WI.

Now that you ask me the direct question "Am I a proponent of doing nothing" and I honestly consider that question, the answer is yes I am. Because doing something is not just doing anything. It's sending snipers out to eliminate a herd. I am against the kill them to save them idea.

Here is what we've been told.

All deer can get CWD (no resistance to it in any deer)
CWD kills all infected deer.
It's caused by a bent something called a prion.
A prion is not alive but lives forever in the soil and is taken up in virtually everything the deer eat, drink or sniff.
A prion can't be killed and remains viable to spread the disease virtually forever.
Prions are spread by deer, hunters moving carcasses, deer farms moving deer etc. so containment is not possible.

If all those things are true at once, what's the point, it's going to eventually kill all the deer.

But are all those things true? Are there any deer that may have some resistance?
NDA wrote an article on why releasing captive CWD resistant deer wouldn't work. Granted one of the biologist quoted in the article said the deer are not resistant they just live longer with CWD. But even that is resistance on some level. What happened to there is no resistant deer? Why would NDA publish an article saying it wouldn't work? I can give one reason but won't.

Is it possible there are wild deer out there with resistance or immunity. Experts say no. I have no idea. But I don't believe anyone else Knows for sure either, even the experts.

All that to say I don't like the snipers and I don't think the experts know anything for sure.


Now for the why I'm pissed.
My farm is on the MO/IA border. Iowa had a case about 10 miles north of us. No cases in MO. Yet MO decided to establish a CWD hot zone (with no positive deer on our side of the line). Mandatory testing the first 2 days of rifle had been in effect for years, Mandatory testing to donate to share the harvest also.

MO wanted to snipe on our farms. Close neighbors said no but I'm certain some in the zone said yes. The first year we got hit hard with EHD. No change to the kill them all cure. MO gave out 10 free any deer tags to anyone with 5 acres in the zone and even contributed to the cost of butchering. Mandatory testing on those also. This past year 5 free extra tags for everyone willing to use them. Mandatory testing.

Guess what ended in our county this year? Mandatory testing during the first 2 days of rifle season. Guess why, No positive cases in the county. All that killing and all that testing and no CWD +. yet they still gave out 5 extra tags in the hot zone (that's actually cold)

It's going to take a few years for us to get out herd back because of EHD yet they are handing tags out like crazy to kill them to cure them in a zone with no positive cases.

And I'm supposed to trust the experts....No thanks. As far as I'm concerned the experts handled our "hot" zone as well the experts handled
covid.

Agree, sounds like it could have been handled better.

 

[Turkish]

Here is where I stand. "Pissed off" I'll get into that later.

Let me start with, sometime in the late 90's or very very early 2000's when we still got deer hunting magazines in the mail I read a dooms day article about WI having discovered CWD and how it could eventually wipe out all deer in the country. 25 plus years later every state with deer still has deer including WI.

Now that you ask me the direct question "Am I a proponent of doing nothing" and I honestly consider that question, the answer is yes I am. Because doing something is not just doing anything. It's sending snipers out to eliminate a herd. I am against the kill them to save them idea.

Here is what we've been told.

All deer can get CWD (no resistance to it in any deer)
CWD kills all infected deer.
It's caused by a bent something called a prion.
A prion is not alive but lives forever in the soil and is taken up in virtually everything the deer eat, drink or sniff.
A prion can't be killed and remains viable to spread the disease virtually forever.
Prions are spread by deer, hunters moving carcasses, deer farms moving deer etc. so containment is not possible.

If all those things are true at once, what's the point, it's going to eventually kill all the deer.

But are all those things true? Are there any deer that may have some resistance?
NDA wrote an article on why releasing captive CWD resistant deer wouldn't work. Granted one of the biologist quoted in the article said the deer are not resistant they just live longer with CWD. But even that is resistance on some level. What happened to there is no resistant deer? Why would NDA publish an article saying it wouldn't work? I can give one reason but won't.

Is it possible there are wild deer out there with resistance or immunity. Experts say no. I have no idea. But I don't believe anyone else Knows for sure either, even the experts.

All that to say I don't like the snipers and I don't think the experts know anything for sure.


Now for the why I'm pissed.
My farm is on the MO/IA border. Iowa had a case about 10 miles north of us. No cases in MO. Yet MO decided to establish a CWD hot zone (with no positive deer on our side of the line). Mandatory testing the first 2 days of rifle had been in effect for years, Mandatory testing to donate to share the harvest also.

MO wanted to snipe on our farms. Close neighbors said no but I'm certain some in the zone said yes. The first year we got hit hard with EHD. No change to the kill them all cure. MO gave out 10 free any deer tags to anyone with 5 acres in the zone and even contributed to the cost of butchering. Mandatory testing on those also. This past year 5 free extra tags for everyone willing to use them. Mandatory testing.

Guess what ended in our county this year? Mandatory testing during the first 2 days of rifle season. Guess why, No positive cases in the county. All that killing and all that testing and no CWD +. yet they still gave out 5 extra tags in the hot zone (that's actually cold)

It's going to take a few years for us to get out herd back because of EHD yet they are handing tags out like crazy to kill them to cure them in a zone with no positive cases.

And I'm supposed to trust the experts....No thanks. As far as I'm concerned the experts handled our "hot" zone as well the experts handled
covid.

On the bright side, you should be looking at the best deer hunting of your life in a couple years.

What have land values done thru this ordeal?

 

[356]

Like Bill, I live in a CWD zone county with no positive CWD. The county east of us had one positive, 15 miles from our place. In the past three years, no more positive deer have been found, for which I am thankful.

I am reading/hearing more stories of CWD in Wisconsin and NW Arkansas impacting health and numbers to nearly unhuntable levels.

CWD management is a bit like planting oaks....we are doing it mainly for the next generation of hunters, and our generation is bearing the cost and effort. It requires playing the long game, and required working together.

* Most early CWD hotspots were through captive deer & elk herd movement. Others were likely through hunter carcass movement. As more hotspots were established, natural deer movement started impacting more states (36 of 50 at this time). Nobody likes this, especially those on this forum who invest in growing bigger deer. Once established in an area, the disease will change the age structure we have been working so hard to establish. Bottom line, we didn't cause the problem, but it's our problem.
* Change is hard, but necessary. Jasmine Batten of the Wisconsin DNR nailed it when he said, “It is increasingly clear to me that legislation alone isn’t enough to move the needle on CWD. At the end of the day, it’s really about people and whether or not we are willing to collectively re-think our relationship with deer and deer management.”
* Glimmers of hope. Significant steps have been made in understanding how to provoke an immune response to prions, however, a widely deployable vaccine is still in the research phase. Researchers Napper and Shatzle wrote, "The field of vaccinology is pushing into new frontiers of vaccine development and application." Related to a CWD vaccine they conclude, "There is optimism that we have only begun to actualize the potential of vaccines. This includes encouraging progress into the development of vaccines for prion and prion-like diseases. Given the tremendous toll of these diseases on human and animal health, it is critical that we build on these successes to develop essential new tools for these diseases."
* There is no evidence to suggest that herds will become CWD adapted. However, in low-density populations in the west herd populations are maintaining, suggesting that maintaining low deer densities is one of the management tools. Low density helps buy the time needed.
* Testing deer is essential to management. I look at this as a modern day "check station" and drop off the head or lymph nodes. Sadly, four of the 60 deer tested in our county came from our little 85 acre farm.

Update: As of today (2/23/2026) Missouri has 121 positives for 2025-26, with only 12 pending tests. This means a maximum of 54 per 10,000 tests.

Currently, CWD positive cases are down slightly on a number of positive deer per test here in Missouri. That is some good news, although there are hotspots that are showing positive rates between 1-2%.

The PRELIMINARY results for MISSOURI'S 2025-2026 season: 121 new cases (with 46 more still pending) out pf 24280 samples. This provides a 49.8 to 68.7 positive cases per 10,000 tests, so somewhere between 0.48-0.68%. This is actually good news if the hunters in the state can maintain good harvest levels and testing approximately 10% of harvested deer.

• 2024-2025 Season: 243 new cases found from "more than 36,000" samples.
  • Calculation: (243 / 36,000) * 10,000 = ~67.5 positive cases per 10,000 tests (approx. 0.68%).
• 2023-2024 Season: 162 positive cases found from "more than 37,000" samples.
  • Calculation: (162 / 37,000) * 10,000 = ~43.8 positive cases per 10,000 tests (approx. 0.44%).
• 2022-2023 Season: 117 positive cases found from "more than 33,000" samples.
  • Calculation: (117 / 33,000) * 10,000 = ~35.5 positive cases per 10,000 tests (approx. 0.35%)

I have accepted an invitation to serve on the Missouri Deer Management/CWD Response task force, which will meet March 4th. I'll post updates on the issues and discussions in this thread.

I am wanting to be a helpful voice in the CWD conservation and planning for our state. PM me any questions you would like me to address during the task force meeting on March 4.

 

[Brian662]

The age structure thing is what worries me the most.

 

[Brian662]

So the regulations allow you to kill one on a regular license on your property and allow you to purchase two more tags for a total of three deer. No one else can hunt your property?

I mentioned in a subsequent post that my co-workers's children have an open invitation to hunt there. In a few years that will end once my kids are of age.

I know that fawn recruitment is a problem for you and you keep your doe harvest limited. In many areas of the upper Midwest, does reproduction rates are keeping up or even exceeding what hunters are taking. It would be appropriate in those areas to arm hunter with the correct tools (tags) to manage the herd, IMO.

 

[SwampCat]

That Arkansas situation still stinks. Why would CWD reduce the herd there all of a sudden, when there's been no documented reduction from CWD anywhere else ever? My guess is it isn't CWD, and you probably really don't want to know the answer.

The question I would be asking, is there a unique reason some entity would want the deer dead in that area more than anywhere else, or have the unique ability to pull it off?

100% my opinion.

I in no way believe anyone in intentionally killed all the deer in that area. What I do believe is different about AR - that I never hear anyone mention - is the extremely low fawn recruitment rates in this state. Fawn recruitment in the Ozarks - NW AR - averages about .4 fawns per doe. That is among healthy deer.

In fact, I dont see the importance of fawn recruitment mentioned in conjunction with CWD hardly ever. The deer population in that area was not increasing prior to cwd in NW AR. When you add the increased mortality caused by CWD - combined that with low fawn recruitment already existing - the deer density has no way to go but down.

Back in 2016, when cwd was first detected in that area - the common practice in newly found cwd areas was to immediately jump in a reduce deer density. I think very little though was given to other factors.

I read a an article on fawn recruitment comparisons across the whitetail states a few years ago and AR was in the bottom five. When you add already existing low fawn recruitment, with targeted shooting in the early years, and then change the harvest regulations to aide in higher harvest - all that created the perfect storm to basically wipe out the deer herd.

 

[Mortenson]

The age structure thing is what worries me the most.

According to dnr, there's a bunch of sick deer where we are. I don't see them, but they tell me they're sick. A ghost buck we were pretty sure was 7.5 got killed on the adjacent farm this year. Two years ago the same farm got another buck I know was 7.5. We got his sheds as a 4.5 and I had him at 40 yards as a 6.5 but he had already shed his horns in late Dec. Got 1 of those sheds also. Killed the next year on his downhill slide. Just anecdotes. I'm sure we lose a few to chronic-19, but ehd seems to take more, and obviously usually in lump sums.

 

[Brian662]

According to dnr, there's a bunch of sick deer where we are. I don't see them, but they tell me they're sick. A ghost buck we were pretty sure was 7.5 got killed on the adjacent farm this year. Two years ago the same farm got another buck I know was 7.5. We got his sheds as a 4.5 and I had him at 40 yards as a 6.5 but he had already shed his horns in late Dec. Got 1 of those sheds also. Killed the next year on his downhill slide. Just anecdotes. I'm sure we lose a few to chronic-19, but ehd seems to take more, and obviously usually in lump sums.

I agree, same around us in WI. Both of my bucks were positive this year in WI, you couldn't tell it by their age or body size. Both were mature.
As I've mentioned before, there are areas in SW WI that have (anectdotally) had a problem getting older/mature deer sightings in the past ~5 years. Could be a number of factors for that...I just hope the same doesn't happen by us, but time will tell.

 

[Mortenson]

There was a poster here some years ago from that area who stated they thought they had bucks disappearing in that 4.5 to 5.5 time period. Can't recall if he said they were finding them dead or just gone. I tagged a 5.5+ in 19, 21, & 23 but they were not tested. Same as yours, all were on a bulking program. Fall of 24 we were excited to have a few 5.5 to hunt, but they all got wiped out by ehd. I suppose a deer could die from chronic in the same 2 month time span as ehd and it would be hard to differentiate. We had a bunch of yearling bucks on the farm this fall which was great to see.

 

[Bill]

On the bright side, you should be looking at the best deer hunting of your life in a couple years.

What have land values done thru this ordeal?

Land values are still up. At least the asking prices are. Not sure what people are actually getting at the settlement table.

 

[SwampCat]

I mentioned in a subsequent post that my co-workers's children have an open invitation to hunt there. In a few years that will end once my kids are of age.

I know that fawn recruitment is a problem for you and you keep your doe harvest limited. In many areas of the upper Midwest, does reproduction rates are keeping up or even exceeding what hunters are taking. It would be appropriate in those areas to arm hunter with the correct tools (tags) to manage the herd, IMO.

Yes - fawn recruitment and excessive doe harvest next to my land - my opinion of course - results in a high local harvest.

I was just curious - how many deer do you take off your land and the density remains that high? I also realize your winters are different than ours - and you may well have more deer move to your property at certain times of the year. We do not have seasonal movement here to any extent - cover is everywhere and we dont have any row crop for deer to be attracted to.

Are the extra tags you can buy available to everyone - or are they landowner/acreage based tags like some areas out west? Just curious how it works up there.

 

[SwampCat]

I read where some folks say predators typically do not eat ehd infected deer. I wonder if that is the case with cwd killed deer. I think I did hear in the AR cwd podcast that the researchers did see scavenged cwd deer. I have owned my property for almost 25 years and found two dead deer that we did not shoot.

One seemed healthy and alive the evening before. I found him dead the next morning. It was august and he was in velvet. I went back that evening with a sawzall to recover the antlers and there was no sign of the deer - other than a beat down spot in the grass and some deer hair. The other dead deer I found was floating in my pond.