CWD conversations that are worth the time to watch

[Turkish]

I don’t trust anyone that’s guessing.

@Bill everybody that has a position on this topic is guessing. Me, and, yes, you.

Are you a proponent of the do-nothing approach? Do you think it’s been around forever, which seems to be the growing conspiracy theory. Just curious — it’s hard to tell what your position is.

I’ve always felt like the very first to take a really questionable approach to this were the deer farmers who just didn’t want to be hindered from their pursuits. As such, I’ve generally just stayed on whatever said of the debate they’re not.

 

[BenA]

If you were king for a day, you’d promote it?

If the entire state of MS or AL looked like NW AR, what do you think would happen to their state wildlife budget? I’m pretty libertarian, but I have to draw a line somewhere.

No, but I'd promote sound biological principles instead of aiming straight at CWD. In areas that have high populations, I'd open up rifle seasons to get those populations down to 50% carrying capacity. I'd hit those areas hard for does. There's no reason we should have 30 or 40 deer out in a 5 acre foodplot. People have gotten too accustomed to seeing too many deer at the expense of other wildlife and plant communities.

 

[Turkish]

No, but I'd promote sound biological principles instead of aiming straight at CWD. In areas that have high populations, I'd open up rifle seasons to get those populations down to 50% carrying capacity. I'd hit those areas hard for does. There's no reason we should have 30 or 40 deer out in a 5 acre foodplot. People have gotten too accustomed to seeing too many deer at the expense of other wildlife and plant communities.

You and I could definitely find some common ground there!

When populations are subsidized, hunters have to increase harvest. This is a problem MS has been talking about for some years now.

ETA: just to point out some nuance, the line between this and sharpshooting isnt the boldest.

 

[BenA]

You and I could definitely find some common ground there!

When populations are subsidized, hunters have to increase harvest. This is a problem MS has been talking about for some years now.

ETA: just to point out some nuance, the line between this and sharpshooting isnt the boldest.

I'm not really against sharpshooting in areas where hunters won't step up and thin the numbers down. Just because an area may have tons of agriculture to artificially raise population numbers, doesn't mean that should be the population. Populations should be in line with what the native vegetation can support. If there are native ice cream plants missing because the resident population won't let them establish, then that population needs to come down dramatically. Targeting CWD isn't the angle I'd take. I'd urge state game agencies to target populations so numbers are 50% of the native carrying capacity plus target a more natural buck:doe ratio and age structure.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

What’s the correct number of deer we should see in a 5 acre foodplot?

If I have 30 deer in a 5 acre food plot and inevitably cwd comes and takes a portion I’m left with say 10. If I have 10 deer in a 5 acre food plot and cwd inevitably comes I’m left with 2? I’d rather be insulated for when this and EHD comes. I found 5 dead deer last two weekend from presumably EHD. Sucks but nice to know I’m not going to be staring at blue jays next October.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I'm not really against sharpshooting in areas where hunters won't step up and thin the numbers down. Just because an area may have tons of agriculture to artificially raise population numbers, doesn't mean that should be the population. Populations should be in line with what the native vegetation can support. If there are native ice cream plants missing because the resident population won't let them establish, then that population needs to come down dramatically. Targeting CWD isn't the angle I'd take. I'd urge state game agencies to target populations so numbers are 50% of the native carrying capacity plus target a more natural buck:doe ratio and age structure.

Sharpshooters on private land? With or without landowners permission?

 

[BenA]

Sharpshooters on private land? With or without landowners permission?

Definitely not without permission. But, I think you can get there with regulation changes.

 

[BenA]

What’s the correct number of deer we should see in a 5 acre foodplot?

It depends on what browse surveys of the native vegetation shows.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Definitely not without permission. But, I think you can get there with regulation changes.

Yeah the idea of the government telling me I have too many deer is scary. Though I guess I should give them the benefit of the doubt. They rarely screw anything up.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

In all seriousness, the handling of CWD by state agencies is not an enviable position. No matter what happens there is going to be a lot of people upset. And the reality of it is, if they fail to completely eradicate it, which seems almost impossible, then they are going to be seen as failing in the direction they chose. For all of our sake, I hope someone, somewhere gets it right and it becomes a thing of the past.

 

[Brian662]

It depends on what browse surveys of the native vegetation shows.

Who is going to complete those? In MN I've had between 20 and 40 deer on my 70 acres nearly every evening in the fall for 12 years. The first few years I lived here I could kill one deer all season in this zone (doe or buck). Then it went to where I could pay $20 for a "bonus" tag for about the next 7 or 8 years which meant I can kill one doe and one buck (or two does). Now I can buy two "bonus" tags so I can shoot two does and 1 buck all season where I routinely see 25+ deer/hunt. This has been going on for over a decade now. We've had CWD zones close for years, but not close enough I could manage the herd with an appropriate amount of tags.

These agencies just don't have a decent handle on herd numbers nor are the zone lines able to account for macro vs micro. Realistically I should be harvesting 6-8 does per year on my home property but the DNR just doesn’t have the correct tag allotment to allow it, therefore our "browse survey" would look horrible. No way in hell they can jump from these crazy tag restrictions to sharp shooters. In all reality, they should notify landowners in any area several years before bringing in sharpshooters (with unlimited free tags), so at least they have an opportunity to manage the herd themselves, IMO.

 

[BenA]

Who is going to complete those?

In the south, they're routinely done as part of DMAP programs. Then antlerless tags are allotted according to those to the participants. But, in all honesty, it's not that hard to learn. It takes learning what deer browse looks like and plant identification along with their preference level in that area. It's a good tool to learn. Many states have local private lands biologists that will be glad to assist.

 

[Brian662]

In the south, they're routinely done as part of DMAP programs. Then antlerless tags are allotted according to those to the participants. But, in all honesty, it's not that hard to learn. It takes learning what deer browse looks like and plant identification along with their preference level in that area. It's a good tool to learn. Many states have local private lands biologists that will be glad to assist.

OK, I am active enough on my land I know how much browse pressure there is. I can't harvest deer according to what my browse survey shows, so what difference does it make? My hunting zone is nearly the size of a whole county, there is certainly nuance within that large of an area. In fact my property only several miles away has a much lower deer density (same hunting zone). Because of the regs, I can only harvest two does all season between the two properties, insane!

 

[BenA]

OK, I am active enough on my land I know how much browse pressure there is. I can't harvest deer according to what my browse survey shows, so what difference does it make? My hunting zone is nearly the size of a whole county, there is certainly nuance within that large of an area. In fact my property only several miles away has a much lower deer density (same hunting zone). Because of the regs, I can only harvest two does all season between the two properties, insane!

More hunters on the property? Sometimes we're hamstrung by regulations. Population management can turn into work.

 

[Brian662]

More hunters on the property? Sometimes we're hamstrung by regulations. Population management can turn into work.

Friends and co-worker's kids have an open invitation to hunt but you know how that goes, no glory in doe hunting so ultimately its a 300% increase in pressure without the pay off.

 

[BenA]

Friends and co-worker's kids have an open invitation to hunt but you know how that goes, no glory in doe hunting so ultimately its a 300% increase in pressure without the pay off.

Y'all need a DMAP program.

 

[Turkish]

More hunters on the property? Sometimes we're hamstrung by regulations. Population management can turn into work.

There’s no doubt that it is work.

-And hunters are getting lazier, more dependent on instant gratification
-lots don’t even clean their own deer… which becomes a problem when CWD is in the news. it discourages harvest

People have gotten so caught up in killing a big deer to put on IG that they don’t want to risk wasting a hunt or the added disturbance of killing anything but a buck.

I struggle to find any silver linings or hope with this.

I’m strongly considering using doe harvest as the success metric next year and not even using cameras.

 

[Tangler]

I watched his video. His argument is those of us resistant to current policy are those making $ off deer. (Not all by it’s a theme) I get that but don’t fall into that group. Deer cost me a lot of $ with no return other than my own satisfaction.

Hear you. Same here, my habitat habit is expensive! Anyhow, we mostly agree. I just don’t think the biologists are the “bad guys”. (not even sure that’s what your saying)
Anyhow, love this forum. Great place to learn & get inspiration.

 

[Tangler]

I’ve been following him too. While I agree with him on everything I’ve listened to, he’s too old fashioned for the deer hunters of today (and this forum). He was the MDWFP deer program coordinator when they legalized baiting; he left very soon after. He’s very strong in his opinions.

Yep, he is not a fan of baiting. He was on the recent MSU deer university podcast .
I like his stuff.
Anyway, maybe I am too “old fashioned” also.

 

[Bill]

@Bill everybody that has a position on this topic is guessing. Me, and, yes, you.

Are you a proponent of the do-nothing approach? Do you think it’s been around forever, which seems to be the growing conspiracy theory. Just curious — it’s hard to tell what your position is.

I’ve always felt like the very first to take a really questionable approach to this were the deer farmers who just didn’t want to be hindered from their pursuits. As such, I’ve generally just stayed on whatever said of the debate they’re not.

Here is where I stand. "Pissed off" I'll get into that later.

Let me start with, sometime in the late 90's or very very early 2000's when we still got deer hunting magazines in the mail I read a dooms day article about WI having discovered CWD and how it could eventually wipe out all deer in the country. 25 plus years later every state with deer still has deer including WI.

Now that you ask me the direct question "Am I a proponent of doing nothing" and I honestly consider that question, the answer is yes I am. Because doing something is not just doing anything. It's sending snipers out to eliminate a herd. I am against the kill them to save them idea.

Here is what we've been told.

All deer can get CWD (no resistance to it in any deer)
CWD kills all infected deer.
It's caused by a bent something called a prion.
A prion is not alive but lives forever in the soil and is taken up in virtually everything the deer eat, drink or sniff.
A prion can't be killed and remains viable to spread the disease virtually forever.
Prions are spread by deer, hunters moving carcasses, deer farms moving deer etc. so containment is not possible.

If all those things are true at once, what's the point, it's going to eventually kill all the deer.

But are all those things true? Are there any deer that may have some resistance?
NDA wrote an article on why releasing captive CWD resistant deer wouldn't work. Granted one of the biologist quoted in the article said the deer are not resistant they just live longer with CWD. But even that is resistance on some level. What happened to there is no resistant deer? Why would NDA publish an article saying it wouldn't work? I can give one reason but won't.

Is it possible there are wild deer out there with resistance or immunity. Experts say no. I have no idea. But I don't believe anyone else Knows for sure either, even the experts.

All that to say I don't like the snipers and I don't think the experts know anything for sure.


Now for the why I'm pissed.
My farm is on the MO/IA border. Iowa had a case about 10 miles north of us. No cases in MO. Yet MO decided to establish a CWD hot zone (with no positive deer on our side of the line). Mandatory testing the first 2 days of rifle had been in effect for years, Mandatory testing to donate to share the harvest also.

MO wanted to snipe on our farms. Close neighbors said no but I'm certain some in the zone said yes. The first year we got hit hard with EHD. No change to the kill them all cure. MO gave out 10 free any deer tags to anyone with 5 acres in the zone and even contributed to the cost of butchering. Mandatory testing on those also. This past year 5 free extra tags for everyone willing to use them. Mandatory testing.

Guess what ended in our county this year? Mandatory testing during the first 2 days of rifle season. Guess why, No positive cases in the county. All that killing and all that testing and no CWD +. yet they still gave out 5 extra tags in the hot zone (that's actually cold)

It's going to take a few years for us to get out herd back because of EHD yet they are handing tags out like crazy to kill them to cure them in a zone with no positive cases.

And I'm supposed to trust the experts....No thanks. As far as I'm concerned the experts handled our "hot" zone as well the experts handled
covid.