Crossbow Noise

[Barndog56]

I bought a Barnett Ghost 385 when Wisconsin first legalized crossbows for everyone, which I think makes this season 3 of using them. I bought one as I'm not very comfortable standing in a treestand to shoot a compound, and the crossbow allows me to shoot while sitting. I did some research online, but purchased the Ghost 385 without shooting it. It seemed to be the best I could afford at the time.

It's definitely accurate enough as I have no problems shooting 2" groups at 40 yards. But it is very loud when compared to my old vertical bow. I assumed the high speed would make the noise an insignificant factor, but that first year a doe jumped the string on me at 30 yards. It also has more recoil than expected, and has a very heavy trigger.

Anyway, I went to a nearby bow shop yesterday, looking to buy heavier grain arrows and broadheads, as I've been told those would help with noise. When I told the bow shop owner what xbow I had, he told me to sell it and buy a new one, that any noise changes brought on by new equipment would be negligible.

To highlight his recommendation, he grabbed a Mission Sub-1 off the rack and took me into the testing room. It's a room about half the size of my kitchen. I stood about 5 feet behind him while he shot an arrow, and my jaw dropped! It was quieter than my previous vertical bow!! If I had the cash I would have handed over my wallet right there. It is truly a world of difference.

Other pros of this bow he told me about were very little recoil, a 3.4 pound trigger pull, and 80% let off so you can uncock the xbow using the rope cocker. Accuracy is top notch as well, it is named for it's ability to shoot sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards. All of these things were confirmed by several youtube videos.

It's certainly not cheap, but they have it for $1300, which I think is about half of the price of those Ravin bows. It's made in Wisconsin too. Time for me to start saving as it would be a major upgrade.

 

[j-bird]

You went in looking for a solution and you got a sale pitch!

First of all....he is a salesman....and a good one. The store will make much more money off of selling you a new bow vs a new bolt combination or some limb saver accessories. You went looking to quiet your bow for maybe a $100 and he has you salivating over a new $1300 one!

Yes it resolves your issues with your current bow....but did you plan on spending that much to resolve the issue? Nothing wrong with a new one, just be aware of the tactics being used. Some new models and companies of the higher end stuff is very impressive, but costly. Your comparing a Ford to a Ferrari......so to speak. And if you do buy a new bow....shoot it first and try several. If the noise level is something really critical to you, you may want to look into a cheap (under $50 on amazon) decibel meter - this will put a value to what your ears are hearing and really handy to see if your mods to your current bow work or to compare one bow to another in different environments as well. Most are not that concerned to go to that extent, but bows will sound different in a different space should you visit more than one shop.

 

[Barndog56]

While what you're saying is true, he did save me from wasting that $100. I've watched some more videos today, with guys using decibel meters, and the changes I would have made would only produce a difference of about 3 decibels, while the new Mission looks to be about 15 decibels quieter. If you understand decibel ratings you'll know that means my Barnett would still be over twice as loud as the Mission is.

I would have gotten around to upgrading to a new one eventually, now I just know which one I'll be going to, and how much better it is. Your Ford and Ferrarri description appears to be an apt one. The Mission Sub-1 has been winning all of the crossbow target shoots.

Just wanted to share my surprise at finding out there is a crossbow out there that's much quieter than I was aware they could be.

 

[momatt]

Remember that the decibel scale is logarithmic, similar to pH. So, if comparing two sounds, and one is twice as loud as the other, 10 log (P2/P1) = 10 log 2 = 3 dB. So 3 Db is twice as loud!

 

[swat1018]

Some people are too skeptical. There is a wide variety of equipment on the market, some is definitely much better than the rest. You won't see a X-box in my hand until I can't pull a bow, but I believe there are a wide variety of differences.

 

[Bill]

My ravin is quieter than my older ten point but it's still noisy. I think we worry about noise to much on the release of bow string or trigger on an Xbow. A deer on "high" alert is going to duck and I don't think we can do much about it until arrows are faster than the speed of sound.

That's why I won't shoot over about 40 yards which is probably pushing it as it is.

Also have you ever heard an arrow flying? I was amazed years ago to sit safely down range to hear an arrow flying. Their quiet going away from you but man they sure sing coming at you.

 

[yoderjac]

I bought a Barnett Ghost 385 when Wisconsin first legalized crossbows for everyone, which I think makes this season 3 of using them. I bought one as I'm not very comfortable standing in a treestand to shoot a compound, and the crossbow allows me to shoot while sitting. I did some research online, but purchased the Ghost 385 without shooting it. It seemed to be the best I could afford at the time.

It's definitely accurate enough as I have no problems shooting 2" groups at 40 yards. But it is very loud when compared to my old vertical bow. I assumed the high speed would make the noise an insignificant factor, but that first year a doe jumped the string on me at 30 yards. It also has more recoil than expected, and has a very heavy trigger.

Anyway, I went to a nearby bow shop yesterday, looking to buy heavier grain arrows and broadheads, as I've been told those would help with noise. When I told the bow shop owner what xbow I had, he told me to sell it and buy a new one, that any noise changes brought on by new equipment would be negligible.

To highlight his recommendation, he grabbed a Mission Sub-1 off the rack and took me into the testing room. It's a room about half the size of my kitchen. I stood about 5 feet behind him while he shot an arrow, and my jaw dropped! It was quieter than my previous vertical bow!! If I had the cash I would have handed over my wallet right there. It is truly a world of difference.

Other pros of this bow he told me about were very little recoil, a 3.4 pound trigger pull, and 80% let off so you can uncock the xbow using the rope cocker. Accuracy is top notch as well, it is named for it's ability to shoot sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards. All of these things were confirmed by several youtube videos.

It's certainly not cheap, but they have it for $1300, which I think is about half of the price of those Ravin bows. It's made in Wisconsin too. Time for me to start saving as it would be a major upgrade.

When they first legalized crossbows in my state, the crossbow companies came in to support our Hunter Ed Instructor advanced training classes. They brought in their crossbows to ostensibly talk about safety aspects but it was a lot of marketing. It did give us instructors a chance to shoot a lot of crossbows. One of the manufacturers that came was Excalibur. They touted how fast their crossbows were at the time and the fact that the recurve design allowed you to change the string in the field. When I shot one it sounded like a .22 rifle! I ask about sting jumping and the rep said "Our crossbows are so fast the noise doesn't matter."

Of course he was full of crap and had a hard time keeping a straight face when he said it. Crossbows have come a very long way since then and they have gotten even faster. However, when you look at the physics, there are no crossbows that are even 1/2 the speed necessary to overcome string jumping.

Most (but not all) crossbow companies don't get it. They focus on speed over silence. I've owned a couple Parker crossbows. One reason I selected them is because they were a compound bow company first and added crossbows to their line. They seemed to understand that noise is an issue. Even so, I worked to silence my crossbow beyond the factory condition. I added string stoppers, limb savers, and I filled the barrel with Great Stuff (for windows). This all helped. I'm still using a Hurricane I bought quite a while ago.

There have been some technology gains since I bought mine and a lot of new companies have entered the market. I can't recommend any specific manufacturer or model but here is something I'd consider.

There are limited advantages to speed. Crossbows have no better ballistics than compound bows. Bowhunting is a short range sport. I try to keep my compound shots to 20 yards with 25 being a long shot for me. With a crossbow, I'm comfortable at 25 and limit to 30. Don't get me wrong. I can shoot 4" groups at well over 30 yards on the range with a compound and significantly tighter with a crossbow, but many things can happen in the field.

When hunting from a stand, it is easy to mark ranges a head of time or range trees or other objects. If you know the range, speed buys you nothing. The only advantage of speed is to compensate for ranging error on our part. If a deer reacts to the sound of the bow, the sound reaches the deer in time for it to drop 18" - 22" by the time an arrow travels 20 yards. No matter how well you can shoot, it is hard to hit a 9" target that may or may not move 20" after you release the arrow.

To my way of thinking, quiet is much more important than speed. What ever brand you buy, I would avoid the "top of the line" they are usually the fasted bows. Step down to a similar version of the bow you like that is slower. Second, don't buy a bow without shooting it.

Third, consider parallel or reverse limbs. We tend to think of sound as being omnidirectional but it is not. Compound bows started causing much less string jumping when they came out with parallel limbs. The way these limbs vibrate, much of the noise is canceled as they vibrate in opposite directions. The noise that remains tends to be higher in intensity off to the sides rather than toward the target.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[Telemark]

I think the newer crossbows are fast enough to prevent string-jumping at 30 yards or less.

It's not simply an issue of speed. It's an issue of flight time, i.e. does the animal have enough time to react.

 

[j-bird]

While what you're saying is true, he did save me from wasting that $100. I've watched some more videos today, with guys using decibel meters, and the changes I would have made would only produce a difference of about 3 decibels, while the new Mission looks to be about 15 decibels quieter. If you understand decibel ratings you'll know that means my Barnett would still be over twice as loud as the Mission is.

I would have gotten around to upgrading to a new one eventually, now I just know which one I'll be going to, and how much better it is. Your Ford and Ferrarri description appears to be an apt one. The Mission Sub-1 has been winning all of the crossbow target shoots.

Just wanted to share my surprise at finding out there is a crossbow out there that's much quieter than I was aware they could be.

That is cool...... I work in the automotive exhaust biz as an Engineer and sound and the level of it can be very subjective to each person and the surrounding environment. Thus why I suggested the meter if it was that important to you. Sounds like you found what your looking for.....when I entered the X-bow market I made the mistake of shooting a Stryker model and Oh man was it sweet..... but at $1,000 it better be! Not what I was after for "entry level" for my kids to abuse!

 

[yoderjac]

I think the newer crossbows are fast enough to prevent string-jumping at 30 yards or less.

It's not simply an issue of speed. It's an issue of flight time, i.e. does the animal have enough time to react.

Thinking it doesn't make it true. Look at the physics. Reaction time is about 100 ms for the involuntary reaction. Sound reaches the animal with plenty of time for them to drop 18" to 22". I have video. The speed of sound is roughly 375 yards/sec which means the sound arrives in .08 sec for a deer at 30 yards. An arrow shot from a 400 fps bow arrives in .225 seconds. You need to get to around 1000 fps to be fast enough to eliminate string jumping.

I've got a video of string jumping. We went frame by frame through it and marked the position of the deer the frame before he dropped and when the arrow arrived. Here is a slide from a recent IBEP class I taught with stills at the bottom:

Note that the bow in the video was only 300 fps, not 400 but when you look at the math above, it doesn't matter.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Telemark]

How long does it take a deer to move 18"? 100 ms?

Do you have a video of a 400fps bow? 300fps is significantly slower than 400.

 

[yoderjac]

How long does it take a deer to move 18"? 100 ms?

Do you have a video of a 400fps bow? 300fps is significantly slower than 400.

If you look at the math above, you will that the difference between 300fps and 400fps is not significant. In the example above, the deer had moved 18" several frames before the arrow arrived. That also includes the reaction time because the sound is initiated as the arrow leaves the bow. Also, keep in mind a deer does not have to drop 18" to change a kill shot into a wounding.

In order for a deer not to have time to react to the sound enough to make a significant difference in the vital location with respect to the point of aim, a bow would need to send an arrow close to 1,000 fps. The difference between 300 fps and 400 fps in inconsequential when it comes to beating a deer's reaction.

We are much better off trying to minimize the deer's reaction rather than beat it with today's technology. Keep in mind that deer hears sounds in the woods constantly and don't have involuntary reactions to every sound. By reducing the intensity of the sound, changing the direction, and even changing the character of the sound, we can significantly reduce the chances of string jumping.

From a practical experience perspective, I personally shoot a Mathews Switchback at around 320 fps. I have never had a deer that was not already on alert jump the string using it. That was not the case when I was shooting and older Martin Scepter at about the same speed. The difference was the attention Mathews paid to silencing their bows.

So, what could crossbow manufacturers do to quiet their bows? The biggest thing is to reduce poundage and increase power stroke. Most crossbows are based on a gunstock design. Gunstocks are designed so you can absorb the kick of a firearm which is backwards for most crossbows (except reverse limb). They want to jump forward and don't kick. A smarter design would be to rest a thin stock on top of the shoulder allowing the right hand to pull down on a pistol grip for stability. This would allow for a much longer power stroke and longer arrows. Scopes would need to be short eye relief. This would bring the nocking point much closer to the face like a vertical bow. A longer power stroke allows for equivalent energy storage with lower poundage and a much smoother transfer of energy from the limbs to the arrow. The more efficient the energy transfer the quieter the bow because any energy not transferred to the arrow has to go somewhere and it is usually vibration which equates to noise. This is all before looking at second order things like parallel limbs which have a sound canceling effect as they vibrate in opposite directions and tend to direct most of the sound to the sides rather than toward the deer.

These are just a few of the considerations design considerations but somehow, speed has become the measure of "best" in the community these days.

The moral of the story...Speed sells.... Silence kills!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Maddog3355]

My cheap scope on my crossbow is only calibrated to 50 yards. I plugged a coyote at 50 the first evening I hunted with it and the coyote didn’t drop any as far as I can tell. I’ve read on some crossbow forums the farther away the deer is the less it reacts to the sound of the bow going off. I’ve read about guys taking deer at 80 to 100 yards with crossbows.

 

[yoderjac]

My cheap scope on my crossbow is only calibrated to 50 yards. I plugged a coyote at 50 the first evening I hunted with it and the coyote didn’t drop any as far as I can tell. I’ve read on some crossbow forums the farther away the deer is the less it reacts to the sound of the bow going off. I’ve read about guys taking deer at 80 to 100 yards with crossbows.

Yes, I agree. Coyotes are a different creature and I'm don't know what their involuntary reactions are. Certainly it is possible to kill a deer at extended ranges with either a crossbow or a compound bow in the hands of a skilled shooter. The issue with long range shots in bowhuning is your personal tolerance for wounding. First, arrows can easily be deflected by the smallest twig and without leaves on it, our ability to determine a clear trajectory path beyond 20-30 yards becomes limited. There is also a difference between hunting over fields an in a wooded environment. It takes very little natural deer movement not necessarily related to shot noise to change a kill shot into a wounding at long yardages.

Having said that, I completely agree with you that deer have a "proximity danger zone" where they involuntarily react to a sharp loud noise. Their involuntary reaction is for them to drop so they can recoil their legs to bound off. When a noise, even a gunshot, occurs at a longer distance, they don't have this involuntary reaction. While they still may perceive this a danger, is it far enough away that they are programed to identify the direction of the potential danger before the run. When the noise source is proximate, it benefits them to run first and ask questions later.

Another issue with string jumping is that it does not always occur. If it did, we could simply aim low enough to compensate. There are lot of localized circumstances that affect a deer's perception of the sound including ear position, wind direction, cover, and more.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

I have a Ravin Crossbow and a Hoyt cmpound that shoots 285 fps with my setup. I dont think any bows are so quiet that a deer doesnt hear them. Yes, the crossbow is noisier - but the compound still makes enough noise for them to hear. Hunting accuracy is not a difference maker - I typically dont miss. I am not a great shot - but I wait for a good shot. The biggest difference I see between the compound and the crossbow is lack of movement when shooting the crossbow. If I can hunt out of a tree - I use a compound. If I hunt from the ground, I use a crossbow.

 

[yoderjac]

I have a Ravin Crossbow and a Hoyt cmpound that shoots 285 fps with my setup. I dont think any bows are so quiet that a deer doesnt hear them. Yes, the crossbow is noisier - but the compound still makes enough noise for them to hear. Hunting accuracy is not a difference maker - I typically dont miss. I am not a great shot - but I wait for a good shot. The biggest difference I see between the compound and the crossbow is lack of movement when shooting the crossbow. If I can hunt out of a tree - I use a compound. If I hunt from the ground, I use a crossbow.

Completely agree. There is not doubt in my mind that deer hear all bows in 20 or 30 yards. It is the intensity and character of the sound in their proximity range that causes the involuntary reaction we call string jumping. Not drawing in the presence of game is by far the biggest advantage of a crossbow over a vertical bow.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Benja]

I came across Grant Woods' experiments on how much arrow speed affects deer's potential reaction time. https://www.growingdeer.tv/video/462. The main takeways for me:
- The delta between the arrival of the sound and the arrival of the arrow is what determines whether a deer can effectively dodge the arrow. Meaning: a faster arrow can make a longer shot same as slightly shorter shots using a slower arrow with regard to string jumping.
- Feeding deer (head down) appear to be able to duck faster due to (not sure how to phrase it) using head/neck as a counter-weight to torso/legs. That was a new thought for me.

For me this info is mostly academic, since I'm shooting a loud/slow 15 year old bow that's has been fully depreciated and which has paid itself off through many venison harvests. And although I'm not planning to upgrade any time, I expect most new bows to be both faster and quieter than my current gear.

 

[yoderjac]

I came across Grant Woods' experiments on how much arrow speed affects deer's potential reaction time. https://www.growingdeer.tv/video/462. The main takeways for me:
- The delta between the arrival of the sound and the arrival of the arrow is what determines whether a deer can effectively dodge the arrow. Meaning: a faster arrow can make a longer shot same as slightly shorter shots using a slower arrow with regard to string jumping.
- Feeding deer (head down) appear to be able to duck faster due to (not sure how to phrase it) using head/neck as a counter-weight to torso/legs. That was a new thought for me.

For me this info is mostly academic, since I'm shooting a loud/slow 15 year old bow that's has been fully depreciated and which has paid itself off through many venison harvests. And although I'm not planning to upgrade any time, I expect most new bows to be both faster and quieter than my current gear.

There are some estimates made in reaction time that don't seem to jibe with reality. I've got video of a deer dropping 18" to 22" at 20 yards by the time a 300 fps arrow arrives. A deer's reaction time to an arrow can be measured. It is the time from between the arrival of the sound and the first frame where the deer begins to drop. That measurement is slow by up to the frame rate of the camera.

It was a great video, but it makes some underlying assumptions. The biggest one is the deer will jump the string. When I moved from a Martin Scepter to a Mathews switchback, string jumping stopped. Why? I have some theories, but the bottom line is whatever sound is reaching the deer from my Mathews, they are not reacting to it.

So, what can we take away from the video? If a deer is going to jump the string, a faster bow is better. That is pretty obvious. The impact point will still be higher than the aim point and depending on how severe the movement, may still hit the kill zone with a faster bow.

Does that make a faster bow better for deer hunting verses a quiet bow? Nope. If a deer does not jump the string, the only thing a faster bow buys you is a reduction in the effects of ranging error. If a "quieter" bow is still causing string jumping, I'd opt for the faster bow. But if you can get a bow that is "quiet" enough to eliminate string jumping it beats a faster bow hands down.

Back to my theories on why I have no string jumping with the old Mathews. There is an entire area of research opportunity here as to what causes deer to react. One theory I have from my hunting experience is that they have a proximity zone. Think about this in human terms. If you are concentrating on something and someone sneaks up behind you and touches you, you have an involuntary startle reaction. If they stand three feed behind you and sharply clap their hands or yell sharply, you have the same reaction. If they are ten feet behind you and whisper you name, you don't have that same startle reaction.

My experience tells me deer have the same thing. I've watched large branches fall from a tree 50 yards from a deer and it just looks up and stares for a minute and goes back to feeding. A much smaller branch can fall a few yard from a deer and it will react and jump a few yards at least until it figures out it is not danger. I believe it is not only the intensity of the sound but the character of the sound that causes the startle reaction.

When a bow makes noise (inefficiency), that noise does not travel in all directions with the same intensity. I'm not sure how one would construct a study, but I'd love to see how deer react to a controlled set of sounds where the frequency, intensity, duration and other characteristics are changed.

The reason I put quiet in quotes earlier is that I'm using "quiet" to refer to a bow that makes noise when fired to which deer do not have a startle reaction.

Everyone has to figure out what works for them best. Most guys want faster cause that is what the industry is producing. I'd love to see a company focus on quieter.

Thanks,

jack

 

[cavey]

Yes...

 

[Victor Van Meter]

"I bought one as I'm not very comfortable standing in a treestand to shoot a compound, and the crossbow allows me to shoot while sitting."

Is there a reason you can't set and shoot your compound? I only shoot from a sitting position. I practice it and it allows much less movement than trying to stand and shoot or stand for countless hours.

Also, my kids have killed many deer with a PSE Fang. It was a whopping $269 and is quiet enough to kill deer out to 40 yards. I would just use what you have and try to get as close as possible with your shot.

VV