Coronavirus

[Bill Loser]

Don't get me wrong, by no means am i saying covid isnt real. It certainly is. It just is most definitely not even close to as deadly or contagious as some are being led to believe.
Of course the hospitals are fudging their numbers, they would be stupid not to, it makes financial sense to do so.
Amazing the numbers you can come up with for a government funded "pandemic".

 

[Iowa_Dave]

Everything about this made up pandemic is suspect......
Time to open your eyes

Not everything.

While I do agree that there are many aspects of this that are being manipulated and distorted and that IS a real problem...this stuff is real too.

Case in point...a good friend of mine, his wife and his daughter all contracted the COVID about 3-1/2 weeks ago now. The wife and the daughter needed to be tested to be sure they even had it, their symptoms were mild to non-existent, and they recovered quickly. My friend, the husband, father, etc,...he died this morning after being on a ventilator for the last 10 days or so.

Yes, he had other underlying health conditions and those undoubtedly contributed to his demise...but he was alive and walking around fine prior to getting the COVID.

 

[Bill Loser]

Never said it wasnt real, in fact read my next posts and i reiterated that.
Some people will die of covid, yes. But most of those would have died of many illnesses they could have contracted. What i am saying is the vast ,vast majority will be fine.
Condolences for you, and your friends family.

 

[Iowa_Dave]

Never said it wasnt real, in fact read my next posts and i reiterated that.
Some people will die of covid, yes. But most of those would have died of many illnesses they could have contracted. What i am saying is the vast ,vast majority will be fine.
Condolences for you, and your friends family.

Bill, I quoted your post where you said, "Everything about this made up pandemic is suspect...". To me, and to many others I would imagine, your words, "made up", suggest that you do not think that it is real.

It is true that the vast majority will be fine. It is ALSO true that this virus will hasten and/or cause death in many people "before their time". That's real and that's serious.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Bill, I quoted your post where you said, "Everything about this made up pandemic is suspect...". To me, and to many others I would imagine, your words, "made up", suggest that you do not think that it is real.

It is true that the vast majority will be fine. It is ALSO true that this virus will hasten and/or cause death in many people "before their time". That's real and that's serious.

"before their time" Says who? We don't get to decide when its our time. When people die it was there time, period. It doesn't matter if it's a 3 month old or a 103 year old, when God says your time is up it's up!

 

[Bill Loser]

Iowa, when i say made up pandemic , i mean the pandemic part is made up. What this illness is is nothing more than another strain of the common cold or flu, nothing more, nothing less. Not a pandemic at all. Dangerous to a very,very small sector of the population, but totally harmless to the rest.
All this was and is being done to achieve a goal or set of goals.

 

[SD51555]

Let us not forget that this isn't a 'right thing vs nothing' option. The path we're on is killing more people than the virus. I'll repeat that. The path we're on is killing more people than the virus, 4 collateral damage deaths to every rona death.

Experts from all walks are starting ponder the long term fallout from how we handled this. They're calling it 'long haul covid.' They're largely focused on direct covid things like cough, fatigue, muscle soreness, sleep issues, depression, or all the $hit that was already going on at pandemic levels before the pandemic. They haven't started quantifying the broken homes, counseling, special education, crime, and poverty that we're creating by crushing the lives and livelihoods of tens of millions of Americans.

We haven't begun to weep for the raped, beaten, drunk, high, depressed, and overstuffed that are suffering in the shadows of the lockdown. The news isn't producing stories with large women wailing over caskets of sons that killed themselves, OD'd, got murdered, or succumbed to diabetes, cancer, heart attack, and dimentia. None of us are brining up our loved ones that took their last breathe alone and depressed. Ok, I did in September, but other than that, nothing. "I know someone that died" is not proof that a national lockdown strategy is the best path forward.

Because we don't see stories about these other victims of lockdown, do they not exist? The fight here is not to pick on people perceived to be overcautious. Nobody wants to die. Nobody wants anyone else to have their ticket punched any sooner than it would happen on it's own, except maybe Bill Gates. I'd argue the anti-lockdown crowd is more pro-neighbor/community/people/life than the lockdown crowd, because we're keeping score on all deaths. We're bothered by the fact that lots of people are dying without covid, and many of them are having to do it alone, all while hiding from a disease that, from what we can tell, hasn't seriously hurt anyone we know, or anyone else we know knows.

 

[Bill Loser]

Well done sd.

 

[Knehrke]

Honestly yes.

We base our beliefs on what we see and experience. Your experience is much different than mine. I know many people who have had it. Some with other serious conditions like, cancer, heart disease etc. they have all lived.

What really turns me off to the position that this is the ultimate killer is the fact that now that I am positive, I will continue to test positive for at least 90 days. If I suffer a massive heart attack in 3 weeks I will have died “with” covid but will be counted as died “of” covid.

based on post #3390 showing annual causes and numbers of deaths as reported by the CDC I disagree that covid is the killer of the century. I’d say “my body, my choice” takes that honor, followed by cancer.

Sorry some of us flat earther’s just can’t be saved.

Bill, I totally respect your right to disagree with me, and if we're talking about cumulative numbers of dead this century, then you are 100% correct that there are worse villains out there. And who said the earth isn't flat (and carried on the back of a turtle and four elephants lol).

And I will respond directly to SD by saying: I agree! Lockdowns are NOT THE ANSWER. But neither is denial. The repercussions of any action we take to mitigate the spread need to be weighed against the demonstrated consequences. For example, masks slow the spread. They don't eliminate it, but they certainly can reduce the viral load upon infection, as well. There's very little downside to masks. So why so much anger and pushback? Lockdowns can backfire in close communities where household spread is the major route, in addition to having all of the issues associated that SD mentions above.

But even if I we discount 95% of the mortality ascribed to SARS-CoV-2, this is still a rampaging b!!tch of a killer. The flu has killed more, but this is no flu. What makes it most heinous (to quote Bill and Ted) is that we can't predict who will fare well and who won't. Age is a factor, for sure. Diabetes, probably. But there are so many variables that don't compute. I know that I'm not concerned for myself (valid or not), but I am concerned about my wife, who has lung scarring from having pneumonia while with her parents on a geological excavation in Algeria as a five-year-old. If I happen to get it and have mild symptoms, then I will thank that man above, not discount the severity of other folk's worse outcomes.

We study cardiac disease risk following COVID-19 in my lab. I'm not sure who's telling you that your dying of a heart attack in the next 90 days is going to be listed as COVID-19 on your death certificate, but I think that this information is incorrect. However, we have several folks now in the hospital who were admitted for COVID-19 complications and had a heart attack (survived, thankfully) while in the ICU. Most likely, if they were to pass, they would be listed as COVID-19 related complications.

Given the immense pressure that medical providers are under with the current surge, I know that there's been decreased clarity from both primary care providers and the health department, somewhat understandably. Believe it or not, I log in here and respond as a respite from the pressure of job. In science as elsewhere, everything has become more difficult and demanding as the dumpster fire of 2020 progressed. We are still in the tunnel, but I'm beginning to see light.

And when I need a bit of levity, I think about how the naysayers claimed that the virus would magically disappear after the election. Two months later, and the numbers are skyrocketing. The worse it gets, the more vehement the denial. When's the next milestone for this mysterious vanishing act? Because I want a piece of that action.

 

[Bill Loser]

Elections are not over yet. They have one more to steal.
Masks do nothing at any level for anyone. 100s of scientific studies show and prove this.
I agree, masks are not a big deal. What is a big deal to me is the government telling me i have to wear one when i dont want to.
We dont know for sure who it will affect worse huh? Sounds like, oh i dont know..... EVERY OTHER SICKNESS KNOWN TO MAN.

 

[bigbendmarine]

But even if I we discount 95% of the mortality ascribed to SARS-CoV-2, this is still a rampaging b!!tch of a killer. The flu has killed more, but this is no flu. What makes it most heinous (to quote Bill and Ted) is that we can't predict who will fare well and who won't. Age is a factor, for sure. Diabetes, probably.

And when I need a bit of levity, I think about how the naysayers claimed that the virus would magically disappear after the election. Two months later, and the numbers are skyrocketing. The worse it gets, the more vehement the denial. When's the next milestone for this mysterious vanishing act? Because I want a piece of that action.

Knehrke, as someone who works in medicine I've only chimed in when I really felt that I had something worth adding and when I have I've sought to make it EXTREMELY data-driven

And when I did post (see shares #3,263 and #3,264), know what your response was?

Basically to challenge that no-one has a good grip on data right now, despite us being a year down the road with this disease AND WITH THE DATA I SHARED COMING FROM SOME OF THE MOST SWEEPING STUDIES WHERE CITIZENS HAVE BEEN MOST WIDELY TESTED, symptomatic or not. Here was your exact reply... "You make a good argument and present several valid points for consideration. I'm fairly current on the literature and I recognize that there is a wide spread on the educated guesses that folks are making, which is really all we can do given that our understanding of this disease is continuously evolving."

The data I shared CLEARLY pointed to covid being less fatal than the flu on an infectious mortality basis for the age groups below age 50. Yet here you now are claiming that even after eliminating 95% of the mortality to covid it's still a "b!!tch of a killer", and "that we can't predict who will fare well and who won't."

A year's worth of data and we can't predict risk factors? Oh really? On the basis of scientific data, I beg to differ...



And do I appreciate that there are exceptions to the norms (as there always are and always will be), and that buried among the very low ratios of those under the age of 50 dying are a number of young folks who absolutely tragically have died... yes, I 100% appreciate that. As do I also appreciate I had a close college friend who, while we were still in college, died from the flu. As I'm sure you know the flu strains sometimes can hit the very young MUCH harder than covid has. The one ENORMOUS BLESSING I pointed out to friends EARLY on in the fight against covid is that the death rate among those 10 and under has effectively been 0.0%. Again, truth be known (and I trust you know it) flu OFTEN hits those 10 and under MUCH more statistically harder than has covid.

I DO understand your desires to make others appreciate real risks associated with covid... but you are not doing yourself any favor by inflating risks as if they are random / little understood / widespread across all age groups. That's just not true based on ANY data I've reviewed (and working in the medical field have reviewed a tiring amount as I appreciate you have as well).

Finally, as for the disease disappearing after the election, that's not a prediction I ever remember making and being honest worry that Biden/Dems might like to push the opposite to keep enjoying the feeling of power it gives at least some of them (while they don't practice what they preach...) but for clarification purposes believe that those who've made that claim likely meant after a Biden administration would be in place / in charge, which hasn't happened just yet. Again, not my prediction but I believe the point those advocating it were making was that it would allow the Dems to try and claim they eradicated it. Doesn't help them to do that before power is switched over.

Actually, let me add a post-script, just to show I'm NOT some covid denier... is covid, as you shared, a "b!!tch of a killer?" For those over age 50 and especially for those over age 50 with underlying comorbidities, ABSOLUTELY. As the New York Times itself published back in the spring, so much so that an estimated 42% of all US deaths in the spring of 2020 occured in nursing homes. Data paints it as every bit the vicious killer you're making it out to be FOR THE SICK AND AGED. No caveats to that at all. Sadly, though, I don't think the press nor many of the powers that be have acted wisely on CLEAR DATA to implement policies specifically targeting those at greatest risk, instead implementing numerous draconian mandates that don't focus on the elderly at all and/or have actually led to increased deaths among the aged at times.

Last time I posted, you indicated you wished you had more time to speak to my share. I sure welcome you to do so if you strongly disagree in principle with what I've shared / wish to argue it's not centered on data.

 

[chummer]

Bill, I totally respect your right to disagree with me, and if we're talking about cumulative numbers of dead this century, then you are 100% correct that there are worse villains out there. And who said the earth isn't flat (and carried on the back of a turtle and four elephants lol).

And I will respond directly to SD by saying: I agree! Lockdowns are NOT THE ANSWER. But neither is denial. The repercussions of any action we take to mitigate the spread need to be weighed against the demonstrated consequences. For example, masks slow the spread. They don't eliminate it, but they certainly can reduce the viral load upon infection, as well. There's very little downside to masks. So why so much anger and pushback? Lockdowns can backfire in close communities where household spread is the major route, in addition to having all of the issues associated that SD mentions above.

But even if I we discount 95% of the mortality ascribed to SARS-CoV-2, this is still a rampaging b!!tch of a killer. The flu has killed more, but this is no flu. What makes it most heinous (to quote Bill and Ted) is that we can't predict who will fare well and who won't. Age is a factor, for sure. Diabetes, probably. But there are so many variables that don't compute. I know that I'm not concerned for myself (valid or not), but I am concerned about my wife, who has lung scarring from having pneumonia while with her parents on a geological excavation in Algeria as a five-year-old. If I happen to get it and have mild symptoms, then I will thank that man above, not discount the severity of other folk's worse outcomes.

We study cardiac disease risk following COVID-19 in my lab. I'm not sure who's telling you that your dying of a heart attack in the next 90 days is going to be listed as COVID-19 on your death certificate, but I think that this information is incorrect. However, we have several folks now in the hospital who were admitted for COVID-19 complications and had a heart attack (survived, thankfully) while in the ICU. Most likely, if they were to pass, they would be listed as COVID-19 related complications.

Given the immense pressure that medical providers are under with the current surge, I know that there's been decreased clarity from both primary care providers and the health department, somewhat understandably. Believe it or not, I log in here and respond as a respite from the pressure of job. In science as elsewhere, everything has become more difficult and demanding as the dumpster fire of 2020 progressed. We are still in the tunnel, but I'm beginning to see light.

And when I need a bit of levity, I think about how the naysayers claimed that the virus would magically disappear after the election. Two months later, and the numbers are skyrocketing. The worse it gets, the more vehement the denial. When's the next milestone for this mysterious vanishing act? Because I want a piece of that action.

January 20th. All rainbows and butterflies after that.

 

[SD51555]

January 20th. All rainbows and butterflies after that.

Hospitalizations are already below annual flu levels. This thing can go away in 24 hours if we just quit testing and reporting on it. I wish we'd go back to climate change, riots, or antifa attacks. Anybody member Antifa girl getting knocked out? My favorite version was the one set to I Will Always Love You by Whitney Houston.

By the way, she had it coming. She had weapons and she was going after people.

 

[chummer]

Hospitalizations are already below annual flu levels. This thing can go away in 24 hours if we just quit testing and reporting on it. I wish we'd go back to climate change, riots, or antifa attacks. Anybody member Antifa girl getting knocked out? My favorite version was the one set to I Will Always Love You by Whitney Houston.

By the way, she had it coming. She had weapons and she was going after people.

Even the great Joe Biden said it was okay to beat the bitch in rare circumstances.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

We thought it would be gone by now because we knew Trump would win by a landslide. He did win by a land slide but the other side cheated. I still have hope.

 

[jsasker007]

I think Trump was the best President we have had to date....for the people. Trump was probably one of the worst presidents we have had....for the government. Trump was against crooked politicians and said so from day 1. From that day forward he was tortured in every way possible by the biggest criminals with the biggest voices. They will not stop going after him now and in the last couple of days a public statement was made that trump will not be safe on earth. Ever heard the saying "no good deed goes unpunished"? Any other president in office and this whole pandemic in this country doesn't even happen in my opinion.

 

[Bill Loser]

Dead nuts on jsasker. Only it doesnt stop there. Trump stopping the American money grab by most other nations has alot to do with thos also.
This goes a lot deeper than a cold.

 

[Knehrke]

Big Bend, I'm glad that you use an evidence-based medicine approach to forming your opinions. And yet, opinions differ, even among well-read scientists. I did notice that the graph you presented has data that was compiled in February and March...you might want to bring that up to date lol. You don't do yourself any favors by grabbing random screen shots from the most readily accessible source available.

As I mentioned, we recognize age and co-morbidities as being drivers, but we don't fully understand all of the risk factors, and we don't even begin to understand the long-term consequences. If you truly want to get a handle on some of the more concerning aspects of this disease, please look into the recent literature on the new UK variant and how it affects children, as well as long-term neurological effects of the disease. As you mentioned, I don't want to be a fear monger, and so I didn't bust out my treasure trove of emerging scientific literature - which I assure you, I am quite current on. This is, after all, a habitat forum. I simply stated that there was a lot that was unknown. I find that to be a tough statement to repudiate, but you seem to want to. Okay. I respectfully disagree. As does the CDC, the NIH, NSF, and most institutional and philanthropic funding organizations.

I don't fear COVID-19, but I do fear the dismissive attitude - and I suspect that this is something based on world-view, not numbers. Hence, there is no argument that can prevail.

 

[chummer]

Not sure if we have clarified lately, are we still saying this came from a bat? China and the WHO still in the clear? Trump is better than I am. I would tax everything out of China to the point theor country crumbles. Any country that does business with China would get the same. The world thinks we are a big bad bully, time to show them what a bully looks like. Lucky for them their plan of removing Trump worked and now they have a president they have bought and paid for with pictures of his some banging minors for back up. This should turn out real well.

 

[bigbendmarine]

Big Bend, I'm glad that you use an evidence-based medicine approach to forming your opinions. And yet, opinions differ, even among well-read scientists. I did notice that the graph you presented has data that was compiled in February and March...you might want to bring that up to date lol. You don't do yourself any favors by grabbing random screen shots from the most readily accessible source available.

As I mentioned, we recognize age and co-morbidities as being drivers, but we don't fully understand all of the risk factors, and we don't even begin to understand the long-term consequences. If you truly want to get a handle on some of the more concerning aspects of this disease, please look into the recent literature on the new UK variant and how it affects children, as well as long-term neurological effects of the disease. As you mentioned, I don't want to be a fear monger, and so I didn't bust out my treasure trove of emerging scientific literature - which I assure you, I am quite current on. This is, after all, a habitat forum. I simply stated that there was a lot that was unknown. I find that to be a tough statement to repudiate, but you seem to want to. Okay. I respectfully disagree. As does the CDC, the NIH, NSF, and most institutional and philanthropic funding organizations.

I don't fear COVID-19, but I do fear the dismissive attitude - and I suspect that this is something based on world-view, not numbers. Hence, there is no argument that can prevail.

Knehrke, if you'll kindly go back and read the two posts I shared weeks ago you'll see I CLEARLY spoke to fall data.

As for the chart, two points for you to weigh on it... no, make that three...
1) It shows tight correlation among age groups, despite different locales (that doesn't strike me as something opinion based/is clearly data-based)
2) It clearly shows that fatality rates are relatively low (even compared to historical flu rates) until after age 50
3) And as for it being a spring share, again as I trust you to be relatively smart, that speaks to two points itself -- at that time far fewer asymptomatic were being included in data studies so they would only be less alarming (as relates to fatality rates / not to your point on long-term consequences), and I put that in pretty clear writing in my long previous two posts, but MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY the reason for the lack of updated charts is... drumroll... they quit being widely posted/updated/shared in the spring, and I can't help but believe it was with motivation to mask the lack of fatality threat to those under age 50, as that point doesn't support the most draconian measures taken, such as shutting down economies largely manned by those under age 65, the age at which risks really begin to escalate most dramatically.

I don't understand your point on "opinions" varying on data. Data is data. So let me challenge you again, can you provide detailed data that points to alarming infectious mortality rates for the age groups between 0 and 50? If not, then lets at least put that one single point of debate to bed.

That's a far different discussion than long-term consequences, a topic I didn't bring up, but since you did I would only add that again, with the caveat that on this point I'm sharing insignificant/anecdotal evidence, I've now witnessed numerous coworkers, friends, and family infected with covid and the vast majority were asymptomatic or had symptoms milder than colds, and months later are showing ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS OF any subsequent illness, and I mean zero illness. I have now known a handful of family friends to die, and with one exception, all were over age 80. The lone exception is a high school friend in his 50s who died, but he was morbidly obese and I believe he suffered from diabetes.

The above shared, I'll go back to the sidelines and let you resume the "we don't know what we're facing!" cry, though after three-thousand, four-hundred, and forty posts (that's one of those factual points / not opinion based points ) AND with nearly a year for all members to evaluate how others around them have fared, I doubt either one of us is greatly impacting the way others are now weighing the disease.