Coronavirus

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This is the only opinion of yours I could find. Are you still backing natural evolution? Still think leaking from the lab is not likely. What are your other opinions? Should we stay locked down until there is a vaccine? I get you don’t like anecdotal evidence. Your career is based on not accepting it. In a situation like this anecdotal has to be used until trials can be done. Are you suggesting that people shouldn’t be getting these therapeutic drugs until trials are done? How many extra people would die if we did that. Are we not to believe the testimony of actual patients that it saved their lives? Do we have to wait for a guy in a white coat to verify through months of test what patients are telling us? You are implying you have all the answers, please share.

Lots of questions. I will do my best. Yes, this virus evolved naturally. IMHO, there is no question. I am a genetic engineer, and there would be fingerprints if it were "manufactured" in a lab. That doesn't mean that it didn't escape containment from a lab studying it in China. However, let me be clear = I have seen no evidence of that. I remain open minded to reasonable possibilities and will evaluate new evidence as it emerges. Without evidence, this is just a conspiracy theory. For the record, I think that China is out to win and will use every trick in their arsenal to do so. I am not a big fan. And yet I will withhold judgment pending facts.

Lock down until there's a vaccine? Man, I hope not. We're at least a year out, and that's with minimal validation. However, we do need to have better testing in place. Antibody testing would be fine, and should be available in the nearer term. Last I heard, the FDA had approved three tests. Believe me, you want these things to be accurate. I can't even tell you how many kinds of bad you'd see with inaccurate tests, including loss of faith from stakeholders (ie, you and me). I think that there needs to be a considered reopening that's structured to meet a particular locale's demand. It's not going to be the same everywhere. We are currently dealing at my institute with considerations of how to reengage our workforce (we are the largest employer in the county). If you only let folks who've recovered come back, then you're penalizing people who maybe did what they were asked and social distanced. Tough questions. I don't have good answers. i do know that we have to expect that this will be with us for quite some time, and we need to be prepared to deal with it. Just like the flu, there will be significant ongoing mortality. We can't keep everybody safe by keeping the economy locked down. But we can't just open the gates, either.

In the absence of well-controlled studies, anecdotal evidence is all we have, and I'm not opposed to using it, with the caveat that lots of anecdotal evidence ends up being wrong. In the case of life or death, then yeah, therapeutic drugs should be, and are, considered. If a clinical trial is demonstrating clear efficacy, then the placebo arm might be converted so that all participants benefit. It all depends on the severity of need. But it would suck if folks with underlying predispositions or contrary indications were to take a drug in order to combat a disease that they would recover from regardless. And this is not a benign drug. Neither is valinomycin, which a colleague from Northwester is touting. But in the absence of options, then by all means, do what is necessary. That's only reasonable.

Finally - let's be serious. I don't have all the answers. I don't even have most of them, and like all scientists, I can be wrong. Science is a process. The main tenant of scientific theory is that you can't prove yourself right, you can only prove yourself wrong. Which we try to do every day. We build models based on the best evidence, then we try to poke holes and tear them down. But we also recognize that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Being wrong and admitting it allows you to refine, without having to throw everything away. Logic, evidence, open-mindedness. I could say that I don't have an agenda, but in fact I probably do - it's just not politically motivated.

Stay safe and be well. I worked out my frustration this morning on some ash trees, and the tower blind is still standing, so I call that a win.

PS. I just got notice that a friend of mine has initiated a study to look at antibody prevalence in the general population, and will also test how long post-infection immunity lasts. This is exactly what i think a bunch of posts are asking for - and we're doing it. But it takes time. To be continued...
 
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Lock down NJ style. It’s a warm comforting feeling.

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Then when you get to a grocery store.

Stand uhn Zie Line! And waitz your turn...

one out, one in.
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One good bit of news. The 80 something year old that runs the marina where I dock my boat for the summer just opened. My boat goes in next week. Apparently he doesn’t care ;)
 
Lots of questions. I will do my best. ... But it takes time. To be continued...

I hope you don't mind, sir, but I'm only using your much appreciated, well reasoned, and presented post as a springboard to a confession, a couple of statements, and a question about numbers.

I confess that i felt like there was no value to this thread, and wondered why its in a habitat forum. But, I keep coming back to read what ya'll have been writing. I don't agree with much of it, but it's fascinating. My confession is, after much consideration and listening, I have become very confused about the situation. To put it another way, you've opened my mind to possibilities I would not have considered...and, where I'm concerned, that's no small accomplishment.

Here's the statement. I'm old. I'm high risk. I'm a numbers guy. I like to think I understand numbers as - ah, what the hell, as lovers understand one another. I work for the government. Agriculture. Don't hate me. Now for the assertion- Here's the inside scoop, one most of you already know, the government is never on time, and usually serves to just get in the way. But the government makes up for it by throwing lots of money at the problem and, so far as it being helpful, its only a 50-50 proposition. Black, white, red, blue, purpose, Obama or Trump. If you go back up to the confession, if you wrapped your post in one party or the other, I held my nose.

I'm getting to the question. Every morning I get up very early - some nights i don't go to bed - to get the previous days numbers from places like this one https://nssac.bii.virginia.edu/covid-19/dashboard/ and this one (oops), I mean this one...https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/.

I wrestle with the numbers, and the one's I'm fighting with are USA county level (nothing sacred about counties, but they are handy). And I can't make much sense out of the differences. Some of you, many of you want to argue "the numbers." I get it! But, the perspective is different in NY-NJ than it is in MN or MO. Bash the media, but they pander to their biggest audiences. When my Governor speaks, he's speaking to NOVA, the area around WDC. The numbers are significantly different than what you see in the rest of my state -even when you normalize them - cases per hundred thousand population, percent of people who die in relation to confirmed cases. Maybe it's just happening earlier there than in less densely populated areas. Maybe it will eventually get to the same levels in southwest Virginia. Maybe social distancing is easier. I don't know.

Back to the confession - some of your comments continue to tap away at my thinking and for that, as much as I thought I wouldn't say it, I am grateful. The lesson for me, if not for you, is to keep an open mind.

My question is about the numbers we see and hear and maybe take as gospel. Acknowledging there are some majorly significant differences, geographically, what to make of it? I don't think I can make anything of most of them. If we (whom ever we might be) are making decisions based on the numbers we have, I dunno.

I could go on, but I'll stop and let you have at it.

But, first this - An engineer, a doctor, and a statistician went hunting for deer. They were walking along a field edge when they saw a big buck on the other side. The engineer pulled up and fired. He missed two feet to the left. The doctor was right behind with his shot. He missed two feet to the right. Gleefully, the statistician yelled, "WE GOT HIM!" Hence, the problem with over generalization....(I didn't need to explain that, did I?).
 
All these health and infectious disease experts are really just history statisticians. They are giving advice on what they know from past outbreaks. Their time to shine so to speak will be several years from now when they can plug huge amounts of data into their models and computers and they can look at it and say this is what happened. right now there just isn’t enough real data so they’re just making a best guess. And as any engineer will tell you, they aren’t going to be the one who’s designed failed. They will overbuild It. These health experts are not going to be the ones that undershoot the numbers. They will always err on the safe side. I don’t believe a response like this will ever be done this way again. Not in my lifetime anyway. I’m sure they would like to start all over again. A response that dealt with the virus but not at the expense of the economy. were at that point now. We can deal with the virus. We can be safe. We can adapt. And we can work and keep our liberties and our sanity
 
I truly hope that everybody who has discounted my opinion is correct. Because that would mean that less people die. There's lots of "facts" being touted on this thread that are anything but - you know, I'm too tired to argue. I'm going to grab a chainsaw and engage in some social distancing this morning. When all is said and done, we can look back with 20/20 hindsight. Based on what I've seen so far, even folks who were wrong will be right eventually. There's an awful lot of that going around.

And just to be clear, somebody above stated that I am a doctor who has prescribed chloroquine. That is not correct. I am a Professor of Medicine who runs a large research lab focused on molecular genetics. Chloroquine came out of a screen we'd done for cardiomyocyte susceptibility to hypoxia-reperfusion injury. I don't want to operate under false pretenses - and my bona fide credentials should stand alone anyway, unless you've jumped on the anti-science bandwagon.
How accurate has team science been up to this point?
 
Farmer Dan, I loved reading your post! You, sir, can write. And the joke! It reminds me of the old, "lies, damn lies, and statistics". I wish I could give you hard and fast answers. What I'm continuously hearing is "fluid situation, emerging guidance". I also know that the desired outcome from social distancing was to prevent rural America from turning into NYC. Was it successful, or was there never any problem to begin? I suspect that history will tell the tale. We just need to be open to the idea that we were wrong, no matter what our beliefs, on both sides of the fence. We can't rewrite history to fit our narrative. But until we have some retrospective, we can't know what might have been. For now, we are "flattening the curve". I pray every night that it is enough. And that the cure wasn't worse than the disease. I argue my perspective, but I also have doubt. But in my opinion, anybody who is certain they have the answer needs to be treated with extreme skepticism, as they probably carry an agenda right beside their certainty.
 
I wake up at night thinking the same thing, frequently, although perhaps for different reasons. I have to remind myself that the people making the decisions likely do the same. Or so I hope. Experience is a harsh teacher. But honestly, anyone who can do what's being done nearly everywhere in the world (at least we're in good company) without suffering doubts is IMHO a sociopath. And there are too many leaders making the same informed decisions for that to be true for all of them. So - I try to keep the faith that this is all for the best. Unfortunately, I suspect that this is only a training set, and that there may be worse to come. The world has gotten smaller, and scarier.
 
I wake up at night thinking the same thing, frequently, although perhaps for different reasons. I have to remind myself that the people making the decisions likely do the same. Or so I hope. Experience is a harsh teacher. But honestly, anyone who can do what's being done nearly everywhere in the world (at least we're in good company) without suffering doubts is IMHO a sociopath. And there are too many leaders making the same informed decisions for that to be true for all of them. So - I try to keep the faith that this is all for the best. Unfortunately, I suspect that this is only a training set, and that there may be worse to come. The world has gotten smaller, and scarier.

being from NY I’m interested of course in when things starts opening up. Is your facility essential? Do you think you’ll be able to open up under new guidelines? How’s business?
 
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I wake up at night thinking the same thing, frequently, although perhaps for different reasons. I have to remind myself that the people making the decisions likely do the same. Or so I hope. Experience is a harsh teacher. But honestly, anyone who can do what's being done nearly everywhere in the world (at least we're in good company) without suffering doubts is IMHO a sociopath. And there are too many leaders making the same informed decisions for that to be true for all of them. So - I try to keep the faith that this is all for the best. Unfortunately, I suspect that this is only a training set, and that there may be worse to come. The world has gotten smaller, and scarier.

All that I am reading, I think we are getting closer. Testing to determine if you are or are not infected is nearly there. Treatments are coming along for those who are afflicted. These are key in quickly identifying and treating. Vaccines are the next piece. It is unclear where we are there. My hopes are that the pressure to get there will cut out enough of the red tape that it is available 3rd quarter this year. We’ll see. The last part is serology testing (looking for antibodies). Hopefully this will progress rapidly enough and quickly show (what I suspect) that many more have already been infected (and are hopefully now immune) than was previously thought. IMHO this is partly why the numbers are so much lower than expected (a large part is also skewed models/data/assumptions, etc., as well covered above) and caused by the large amount of Chinese travel for a full month or more after this escaped from their virology lab near the wet market in Wuhan.

It is not clear to me how we can capitalize on knowledge of any individual’s immunity. It is standard practice for children to have proof of shot records to allow them to go to public school. Should there be a system in place to indicate who is immune (by surviving or immunization)? Not sure. Has some scary connotations (especially tracking people, as has been suggested—worked for the Chinese). IMO our future is sure to be different because of all this. I hope we can retain our constitutional rights in the end.
 
I’m the me in Venn.:emoji_thermometer_face: Thanks to ksgobbler for telling me who I am...Really!

I’m paying attention being in NJ. But I’m not in the heart of it. So I make light.
Funny Illinois is not Chicago. And all of NJ is not a NYC suburb. Who knew.

Me.
 
Very interesting that Cuomo didn’t release the number of deaths in the State from Saturday. Something he’s done every day so far. the numbers continue to decline. Hospitalizations down, icu down, intubated down and deaths down for 5 days now. At this rate by the end of April it will be less than 50 a day. He’s going to have a hard time closing down 20 million people with those kind of numbers.
 
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Does anyone else think that corona might only attack people with certain blood types or something odd like that? For as infectious as it apparently is, there should be no way in hell for people on cruise ships or aircraft carriers to avoid getting it if its all over the ship, especially when its being spread by asymptomatic people. It could have been spread all over one of these ships by asymptomatic people before anyone would have manifested any symptoms. Maybe EVERYONE got exposed to the germs. How could they not on an aircraft carrier when they are packed in their like sardines?

EXAMPLE from article linked below: USS Teddy Roosevelt. 4,800 sailors total- 600 confirmed cases of coronavirus- 350+ of the 600 cases are (asymptomatic). I dont see where any of the sailors on this ship could have went to escape the virus, especially when its being broadcast all over by people that dont know they have it.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/coro...are-asymptomatic-flattop-still-wartime-ready/



Same can be said for Diamond Princess cruise. I dont see how EVERYONE wasnt exposed.... From what I have read most of the sailors on Teddy have been tested.
 


KS thanks, I am also in the "me" zone. I think the "me" zone is where most reasonable, and least politically extreme are at. They realize there is risk in life everyday, understand rules and structure in society are important, yet have to be able to live their life and be productive without unnecessary over reach by Gov't.

In Wisconsin, we have cases of 3555 vs. 170 deaths and our democratic Governor decided to extend the shut down another 6 weeks to May 26.

New York has cases of 236,732 vs 17,671 deaths yet they have only extended shut down to May 15th.

There are real reasons why many are starting to push back and challenge orders. Restaurants are announcing they will open May 1st and the Racine county sheriff announced on Friday his department not enforce the Governors shut down order.

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KS thanks, I am also in the "me" zone. I think the "me" zone is where most reasonable, and least politically extreme are at. They realize there is risk in life everyday, understand rules and structure in society are important, yet have to be able to live their life and be productive without unnecessary over reach by Gov't.

In Wisconsin, we have cases of 3555 vs. 170 deaths and our democratic Governor decided to extend the shut down another 6 weeks to May 26.

New York has cases of 236,732 vs 17,671 deaths yet they have only extended shut down to May 15th.

There are real reasons why many are starting to push back and challenge orders. Restaurants are announcing they will open May 1st and the Racine county sheriff announced on Friday his department not enforce the Governors shut down order.

.

Your statements and conclusions are well put. If we all were of such an affluent nature that we could shelter-in-place until we were absolutely sure this thing was finished we probably should and would, assuming we had plenty of beer and a good natured spirit. As you point out, 'Spud, life has it's risk and we are never going to eliminate all of them. Unfortunately, today, many believe it must be made so. A wise man once asked me what the job of a politician was. I went on for a couple minutes. I was apparently wrong. The answer I got was, to get reelected. So, if your base thinks they should live risk free then, by golly, it's the governor's job to at lease make it seem like he/she will do what the votes(ers) want. Harmless enough if there are no other consequences. But, here we have the economy. No work? No pay?

Two weeks ago I was ready to acknowledge the need to lay low for a long time, but, I'm not sure this is unfolding as it was foretold. Let me be quick to say, it still might!!
I'm suspicious of the numbers we have. It's not that I think they are being misrepresented or that there's a conspiracy. It's just that we in the middle of the fight and the clerks, if they are still on the job, are doing the best they can given the circumstances. One day our local rag shouts about a 300% increase in new cases since yesterday. Yes, well, maybe someone finally got around to sending that stack of digital reports to the people who store the numbers. Again, I don't want to diminish anything.

I don't know much about Wisconsin. Let me use Virginia as an example. It's one state. Our governor said we are going to shelter in place until June! I would argue you can't treat all of Virginia the same way. We have three major population centers, the middling group of counties moderately populated and the remaining 60% relatively sparsely populated. I would say the risk profiles in each of those groupings is different, and within those groups, there are factors that will determine the outcomes - some positive, some negative. It just seems to me we (in Virginia) could be a little more thoughtful about how to unwind the tight corner we've wound ourselves into. Maybe the governors decision has been made with great thought - but I doubt it.

There are a lot of numbers to consider. I've been sitting here most of the morning preparing some thoughts for people who make decisions where I work. WI isn't on my radar, but just a little slide west and north and there it is. There are just an awful lot of numbers to consider, assuming they are worthy of consideration...and that's part of the problem. But, when I look at WI, your risk profile is way, way below lots of other states. And, even in-state, the differences between counties looks small. There are a couple conclusions one can make. The first is, put up the storm shutters because it coming your way...well, maybe not. I dunno.

Population density has something to do with all of this. The simple conclusion is the lower the density, the greater the natural social distancing. There's some merit, but I can show you counties with low population densities and high case rates expressed as cases per hundred thousand people. Life style keeps rolling thru my head.

On the illustration below, any county with color had an increase in new cases this past week compared to the previous week. Green means an increase but at a lower level than the previous week. It just goes up from there, doubling, tripling, or quadrupling. What the map doesn't tell is if the increase is from 1 to 2 or 5 to 10 or 500 to 1000. I'm afraid the media, politicians, an other looking for evidence to support their agenda's make pronouncements that aren't very helpful.

Good luck to all!

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Seems to me there playing Calvin ball. We are staying home and social distancing, let me remember: to flatten the curve so we don’t overload our hospitals and healthcare workers with Covid-19 patients. Haven’t we done that already? Isn’t the curve bending down now? Don’t we have multiple effective treatments now so getting this isn’t an automatic emergency but a few days of treatment and back out of the hospital? Why are 330,000,000 people still being sequestered? If people get the virus they can be treated, just like the flu. And just like the flu, we need to take care around those who are old and/or have other serious maladies so we don’t infect them. Am I missing something or did the premise for all this change (like the rules in Calvin ball)?
 
I have no horse in this fight, my life is lame, and for the most part, my life hasn’t changed. I wake up, work from home, I also have a second job, and stay pretty busy with that, and I spend weekends building my cabin.

What I have noticed is store shelves are getting empty, and it isn’t just toilet paper. Basically any beef is hard to come by, along with many other meat products at the local grocery stores. I was at Fleet Farm today, I would say 30% of the shelves were empty. If this goes on another month, things will get ugly.

Just south of my some guy stole food from a gas station, he had a gun, and was shot dead from cops because he chose to shoot at the cops. Things will only get worse.
 
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