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BuckSutherland said:
You are technically correct. They are a thug regime that would make the Sopranos look like alter boys. They are snakes.
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They're a corrupt beaurocracy. Much more dangerous than a dictatorship in my opinion.
 
Baker said:
Last thing I'm interested in is getting into a debate on politics or economics regarding a medical issue. But here is another point of view.

I would point out that corporations move production to wherever offer the best economy for profitability to meet shareholder demands and corporate growth. The same shareholders that are individuals looking for gain, pension plans that many Americans benefit from, 401K's holding stock that many Americans benefit from, trusts..., and any other entity that looks to corporate stock for benefit. It could also be mentioned that we as a society have benefitted dramatically from lower priced goods across the entire spectrum of consumption by these decisions. All that production can be brought back home but for a very real price.

Certainly the decision can be made for we as voters to demand our politicians create policy to address the cost differential between goods made outside our borders vs. locally. That undoubtedly would require subsidies and tax advantages. We just need to understand that we as taxpayers will need to pay a price for that.
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Agree with your statement but it's fair to judge to what degree we offshore production and to whose benefit. I don't know the numbers but almost certainly most of the wealth generated by offshore production went and still goes to a small percentage of the population.

Product costs would depend on the percentage of labor in the product. Intellectual property costs would be the same.

Still, it doesn't seem appropriate that we should be dependent on China for as much as we do particularly healthcare items like drugs.
 
BuckSutherland said:
The "bailout" has doubled overnight. Now asking for over 2 trillion dollars. I think China hold $1.9 trillion in US debt. Are we gonna send them a bill??

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/21/kud...elief-package-worth-more-than-2-trillion.html


#Chuck Fina
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We should send them the bill. The first 1.9 trillion we will call even, the second two trillion they owe us. I don’t see how they are not a dictatorship when their “president” is elected for life. Call them what you want they better not be allowed to get away with this. It still blows my mind they make all our drugs and we pay higher prices than the rest of the world. Politicians have put us here and the average net worth of a senator is 12 million dollars. Time for a reckoning is coming. Trump is the only one that can pull this off, he is the first one to push back on China in 30 years. Let’s elect dementia Joe who’s son just took over a billion out of China. I can’t imagine what China got for that deal. All strategic products should be pulled from China as fast as production can be set up here. If Trump doesn’t do it China will own us in our lifetimes. Unfortunately most of the media is okay with that and somehow doesn’t hold China accountable on anything. CNN just did a story how China is coming to the rescue for Europe. That is the equivalent of setting your neighbors house on fire and letting them use your garden house to try to put it out, and you didn’t tell them it was on fire until it was engulfed in flames.
 
Bakers points about overseas business and the stock market is right on. At a minimum there would be a great downturn in the market for several years.
 
The. US is all consumer driven economy. for 30 years the consumer has adjusted to cheap stuff. You can force some companies to produce strategic and medical stuff here but the American consumers will not pay $400 for their Nike’s or $3000 for an iPhone or $7000 for a TV Made in America. So yes, China has took over our economy on purpose I suppose but, the reality is that’s what makes people happy. We live in a world of stuff, cheap stuff. I don’t see it changing.
 
Buckly said:
The. US is all consumer driven economy. for 30 years the consumer has adjusted to cheap stuff. You can force some companies to produce strategic and medical stuff here but the American consumers will not pay $400 for their Nike’s or $3000 for an iPhone or $7000 for a TV Made in America. So yes, China has took over our economy on purpose I suppose but, the reality is that’s what makes people happy. We live in a world of stuff, cheap stuff. I don’t see it changing.
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There are many alternative cheap labor countries, both in SE Asia and in the Americas. What we need is for consumers as well as producers to start to exercise some judgement. I not a big government guy but it would make sense that we diversify our supply chain. Why have all our eggs in one basket? I for one would buy products made in countries other than China. In fact I could see companies advertising their brand is not made in China. Sounds like a good selling point right about now.
 
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I don't see it changing either. Would be nice to get our medicines made back here, but the rest I doubt we'll ever see. Hopefully can move some more to India and others.
 
L
Buckly said:
The. US is all consumer driven economy. for 30 years the consumer has adjusted to cheap stuff. You can force some companies to produce strategic and medical stuff here but the American consumers will not pay $400 for their Nike’s or $3000 for an iPhone or $7000 for a TV Made in America. So yes, China has took over our economy on purpose I suppose but, the reality is that’s what makes people happy. We live in a world of stuff, cheap stuff. I don’t see it changing.
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But if all those products are brought back and assembled here, when we were basically at full employment already, won't that mean increased wages for us hourly stiffs due to job competition? Which would then allow us poor stiffs to pay higher prices for that cheap stuff?
 
That’s a good theory and thought Just don’t think it’s possible for the consumer to buy into it. The consumer has spoken for years now. They don’t care about quality or where it’s made. They just want cheap. Now I do understand we can move away from China and I’m sure we will do some of that especially after this. Cheap will still be the line I’m sure. Another thing to remember. There are politicians out there right now who crucify any and all attempts to restrict trade with China. These people won’t be going away. just wait until they get in power and see what happens to the theory of bringing everything back. Right now I think the best we’re going to be able to do is some medical and strategic supply that will be it.
 
Overall the next month/ week were going to see unemployment like we never seen before. I hope i am wrong, but with shelter in place / quarantine orders in place it gives businesses no other options. Hopefully it will save lives and speed up recovery, but I feel like the virus is here for good. It might stop the first wave but what about the second or third? At what point do Americans stop living in fear and start getting on with their lives.
 
Bszweda said:
Overall the next month/ week were going to see unemployment like we never seen before. I hope i am wrong, but with shelter in place / quarantine orders in place it gives businesses no other options. Hopefully it will save lives and speed up recovery, but I feel like the virus is here for good. It might stop the first wave but what about the second or third? At what point do Americans stop living in fear and start getting on with their lives.
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One wave. This is giving time for the medical people to figure out and prepare the best they can. After that we have to go back to normal. I am saying this as someone with a compromised immune system, at some point it will become survival of the fittest. It sucks, but this thing spreads so fast I don’t see how you stop it. Putting the economy into a depression will kill more people than the virus left unchecked.
 
Bszweda said:
Overall the next month/ week were going to see unemployment like we never seen before. I hope i am wrong, but with shelter in place / quarantine orders in place it gives businesses no other options. Hopefully it will save lives and speed up recovery, but I feel like the virus is here for good. It might stop the first wave but what about the second or third? At what point do Americans stop living in fear and start getting on with their lives.
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People keep saying we are in unprecedented times, well not really. The world has had many, many pandemics. It’s the response that’s unprecedented. There is no way we can keep shutting down the world to this level even every couple years. I think that will be the biggest thing learned from this. Now as for the second or future waves there will be much less effect. If you believe what they’re saying over half of the US will be infected. That right there takes a huge amount of people out of the second wave. Not only for becoming sick but also transmission wise. The fast track vaccine , which I’m sure they push by next fall regardless of trials will help another part of the population. So it’s really this first wave with the massive effect. The next waves (if there are any). Will have far less impact.
 
I agree this is a one shot deal. Our economy is strong but it can’t hold to long term shutdowns and it may just be there are many more casualties caused by shelter in place. People who need medical attention are being told hold off (early stage cancer and heart stints etc.)

This guy from Stanford is taking a beating in the medical world but he has a point.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17...e-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/
 
How many of you would get tested if given the opportunity? I ask because testing is rolling out now to certain employment classes, with or without symptoms or known exposures. Starts tomorrow where I'm at.
 
bueller said:
How many of you would get tested if given the opportunity? I ask because testing is rolling out now to certain employment classes, with or without symptoms or known exposures. Starts tomorrow where I'm at.
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Why would someone with no symptoms and no known exposures get tested? That goes against everything they have been saying. No symptoms, no test. Testing sights are busy enough.
 
Fun watching the Frankenstein mob assemble here. Grab your torches & pitchforks lets get the monster (China)! :emoji_slight_smile:

You can use isolation and trade as weapon against countries like Iran, Syria, etc. because they have no consumer economy and their people are shut off from exposure to the real world (no internet, outside travel, etc.). If you use isolation strategies with China, it will backfire on the US.

China is a socialist country run by the communist party and party leaders are in a real dilemma. They are in the process of transforming from an agriculture based & agrarian culture and economy, to that of an industrialized nation. They have a huge and rapidly growing consumer based economy and what they need are jobs to support this move to an industrialized economy.

China also has the largest deposits in the world of rare earth minerals which are critical for Hi-tech production ... think computer memory & processing chips, LEDs, rechargeable batteries, flat screen TVs, cell phones, etc. They mine 10 times the volume of rare earth minerals that the US & Australia do and we are both a distant #2 & 3 in production.

If you shut off and isolate China, you can not help & manipulate the internal push by their people to democratize the country. By doing business with and in China, we gain valuable intelligence as to what is going on there and have leverage in their economy by the jobs & factories we have there. China needs the US just as much as we need them.

There is an old saying ... keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer. We have leverage with China and Trump understands this.:emoji_wink:
 
chummer said:
Why would someone with no symptoms and no known exposures get tested? That goes against everything they have been saying. No symptoms, no test. Testing sights are busy enough.
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That's exactly what popped in my head immediately. On the other hand by nature of my job I will have close contact with the public everyday during this "lockdown" and our staffing must be kept up to a certain level so if we all pass it to each other at the workplace we are screwed. This testing site will not be open to the general public for a few more days.
 
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