Bill
Administrator
Yeah but. This is a habitat forum.
I let the Clovid thing go on Because damn....it’s new and unheard of.
The rest of it?
I’m probably going to delete.
It’s still a habit forum. We can get the other stuff anywhere.
All Things Habitat - Lets talk.....
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Coronavirus
- Thread starter BuckSutherland
- Start date
- Status
Yeah but. This is a habitat forum.
I let the Clovid thing go on Because damn....it’s new and unheard of.
The rest of it?
I’m probably going to delete.
It’s still a habit forum. We can get the other stuff anywhere.
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
I hope it is still ok to post here, I see Bill was on the fence so I hope I am not doing the group wrong, that is not my intent.
I just want to share some relevant information about what I see through research and as bigbend stated above. I work at a State College and have a daughter that is going into 10th grade this fall, "if" we have schools open. To me this is just a power grab and is more attributed to control of the population than it is about safety of the population, that's just my perspective but I have researched it often because it directly affects my job and my life as well as my daughters.
All the "news" talks about is the infection rate going up or down but the infection rate isn't a scary thing, they just make it seem scary. AARP reported yesterday that nearly 50,000 people have died from Covid-19 just in nursing homes. The CDC says total deaths from Covid as of yesterday was 111,760 people in the US. Nearly half that is older people directly from nursing homes, 5 states (including my state of NY) allowed "recovering Covid patients in NYC to be dispersed to UPSTATE nursing homes that were otherwise uninfected" while not allowing people to visit their family in nursing homes for fear of Covid getting into nursing homes. Wait what? I can't but the government can?
We now know that before, and long after testing was available, States like mine have admitted that they were adding things like Heart Attacks, Stroke and seasonal flu deaths as Covid deaths without ever testing them for Covid. So it is fair to say that the total deaths from Covid is not a factual number and sadly, the nursing homes were completely avoidable :( Looking around the CDC website I found this info yesterday that proves bigbend is correct, basically if you are 44 years or younger... at worst you will just get a flu, at best you are asymptomatic and wont even know you have it. I don't refuse to drive a vehicle because I know if I drive I could die in a vehicle accident.
I am not minimizing any deaths from Covid, I do care very much about those families that lost love ones during all this and am truly sad for them. For me, my daughters school and the college I work at are STILL considering NOT reopening. That would trickle down to I won't have a job and my daughter will go through 10th grade without a single day in a classroom or with friends :(
Prove it to yourself: Above the chart that shows "age of Covid deaths in the US" is "Table 1", in the description for table 1 it says " Deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), pneumonia, and influenza reported to NCHS by sex and age group" all lumped in as Covid deaths and tracked together.
Just my 2 cents guys.
This chart shows the age of those that passed and is never mentioned in the "news"
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
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jsasker007
5 year old buck +
We are supposed to just drink the kool-aid and don't ask questions.I think the inmates are running the asylum at this point. jmho.
FarmerDan
5 year old buck +
Stop listening to the news. News has an obligation to increase the number of readers / listeners. In a universe far away in a long-ago time, editorial and business operation were segregated - to provide good factual information. Then, the future happened where there are too many sources and too few eyes and ears. What 'business' knew was that the numbers increased if they played to your beliefs and biases. Guess what?
The job of a politician is to get elected and then re-elected. He/she will say whatever most appeals to the largest number of beliefs and biases. I think more than half the politicians try to do the right thing.
That this is still an issue of importance on a habitat forum still irritates me. But, look, I have a job and I am over 65. I lean conservative in some things, but I see nothing wrong with providing an adequate safety net because I think the return far exceeds the investment.
The number of deaths attributed to the corona virus and the covid 19 disease is irrelevant in my opinion. Yes, it's sad, but from a holistic perspective the need is to minimize infections. The initial concern was it wasn't possible. So, the strategy was to hold it off until until we could accumulate enough resources to treat and save as many people as possible.
The strategy was social isolation. Did it work? I don't know. This isn't an experiment. We probably are in a better place than we might have expected, or, at least we are from my point of view. If people get sick (and die) they can't contribute to the economy and like a bowling bowl curving toward the pocket they take a lot of others with them.
That the numbers were bogus should come as no surprise - if you know anything about numbers. This thing started and there were no standards, no rules about what the data were supposed to represent. Some agencies reported, some did not. In the moment, it's hard to interpret what that means. When numbers were reported the rules weren't written about how and when and why. Some places had a better grasp than others. We did what we could with what we had. Was having the numbers better or worse than not having them? I don't know.
As time goes on, we have more opportunity to understand the situation by standardizing the numbers and then understanding what it all means.
To now say I gotcha' because there's now more grasp seems disingenuous to me.
A couple points / questions I wrestle with:
1. Did the strategy for social isolation and the resulting job loss do more damage than disease might have done left unchecked? I don't know.
2. Assuming covid-19 is a worthy adversary, can we devise any strategy to minimize it's impact pre-vaccine? Human nature being what it is, I think probably not.
3. When it's all over will the number of deaths per hundred thousand be higher than in a typical year? Yes, but only marginally.
4. Should we have seen this coming? Yes. I have a morbid interest in knowing what the threats to societal extinction might be. Virus is number one on the lists of most studied individuals. What are the other three or four do you think?
5. Can we be prepared to mitigate these potential disasters? Yes, but we don't have the political will.
6. Can we get back to habitat improvement anytime soon? Please?
The job of a politician is to get elected and then re-elected. He/she will say whatever most appeals to the largest number of beliefs and biases. I think more than half the politicians try to do the right thing.
That this is still an issue of importance on a habitat forum still irritates me. But, look, I have a job and I am over 65. I lean conservative in some things, but I see nothing wrong with providing an adequate safety net because I think the return far exceeds the investment.
The number of deaths attributed to the corona virus and the covid 19 disease is irrelevant in my opinion. Yes, it's sad, but from a holistic perspective the need is to minimize infections. The initial concern was it wasn't possible. So, the strategy was to hold it off until until we could accumulate enough resources to treat and save as many people as possible.
The strategy was social isolation. Did it work? I don't know. This isn't an experiment. We probably are in a better place than we might have expected, or, at least we are from my point of view. If people get sick (and die) they can't contribute to the economy and like a bowling bowl curving toward the pocket they take a lot of others with them.
That the numbers were bogus should come as no surprise - if you know anything about numbers. This thing started and there were no standards, no rules about what the data were supposed to represent. Some agencies reported, some did not. In the moment, it's hard to interpret what that means. When numbers were reported the rules weren't written about how and when and why. Some places had a better grasp than others. We did what we could with what we had. Was having the numbers better or worse than not having them? I don't know.
As time goes on, we have more opportunity to understand the situation by standardizing the numbers and then understanding what it all means.
To now say I gotcha' because there's now more grasp seems disingenuous to me.
A couple points / questions I wrestle with:
1. Did the strategy for social isolation and the resulting job loss do more damage than disease might have done left unchecked? I don't know.
2. Assuming covid-19 is a worthy adversary, can we devise any strategy to minimize it's impact pre-vaccine? Human nature being what it is, I think probably not.
3. When it's all over will the number of deaths per hundred thousand be higher than in a typical year? Yes, but only marginally.
4. Should we have seen this coming? Yes. I have a morbid interest in knowing what the threats to societal extinction might be. Virus is number one on the lists of most studied individuals. What are the other three or four do you think?
5. Can we be prepared to mitigate these potential disasters? Yes, but we don't have the political will.
6. Can we get back to habitat improvement anytime soon? Please?
jsasker007
5 year old buck +
This isn't the only thread.
bigbendmarine
5 year old buck +
The shame is that the media has been allowed to somewhat drive policy by sheer fear. Honestly can't remember precisely what I shared earlier in this thread, but will just say that there's SIGNIFICANT data now pointing to deaths being attributable to a COMBINATION of both age PAIRED WITH comorbidities (other serious diseases such as cancers, severe diabetes, morbid obesity, etc). Like my Dad used to say when he was still living, "Getting old is chicken poop!" and with aging, comorbidities just naturally increase -- thus the higher death rate among the elderly. So here's the chart of death rates by age to date with covid among those who've tested positive... having reviewed lots of data from heavily impacted sites (such as NYC) I can also share that AGE ALONE isn't even that huge a threat if otherwise healthy... it's the pairing with comorbidities that is.
Now compare that fairly natural age progression rate with the Spanish Flu deaths in 1918... can y'all even imagine between social media AND the main stream media how utterly insane they'd be if the covid curve resembled THIS data, with about 35% of deaths taking place in those between birth and 25 years old and an ADDITIONAL 35% of deaths in those ages 25 to 45?
Which begs the policy question of how we should be adapting as time passes... first, I would say that if looking at it from maintaining a functional economy and society that:
1) Schools absolutely should resume operations this fall. The risks to kids are so minimal that far more damage will be done by keeping them from socially engaging with one another, delivering sub-par education via mediocre (at best) substitute online resources, etc.
2) For those relatively healthy under even age 75, life should be resumed relatively as normal though masks do seem to be somewhat effective in keeping cases somewhat level versus spiking (NOT saying masks PREVENT transmission as they clearly don't -- cases still were going on during them times masks were most widespread in use). Thinking the virus somehow will be HALTED with masks is just hogwash. Again, use mainly is just serving to keep the curve a bit flatter (though at the same time that slows development of herd immunity and actually may keep virus around longer if vaccine isn't released soon).
3) MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL -- those who have comorbidities, epsecially the aged with comorbidities are where FOCUSED protective efforts most need to be made. Not sure if y'all have seen reference to this point, but some estimates put nearly half the deaths that have occurred in nursing homes / facilities caring for aged and or invalid sick. Interestingly, in Tallahassee where I live 6 of 8 deaths (out of a population of about 300,000 in the county) took place in a single care facility. Not a point the main stream media really wants to focus on though, as that won't adequately "sell" panic among those of us not living in nursing homes.
Now compare that fairly natural age progression rate with the Spanish Flu deaths in 1918... can y'all even imagine between social media AND the main stream media how utterly insane they'd be if the covid curve resembled THIS data, with about 35% of deaths taking place in those between birth and 25 years old and an ADDITIONAL 35% of deaths in those ages 25 to 45?
Which begs the policy question of how we should be adapting as time passes... first, I would say that if looking at it from maintaining a functional economy and society that:
1) Schools absolutely should resume operations this fall. The risks to kids are so minimal that far more damage will be done by keeping them from socially engaging with one another, delivering sub-par education via mediocre (at best) substitute online resources, etc.
2) For those relatively healthy under even age 75, life should be resumed relatively as normal though masks do seem to be somewhat effective in keeping cases somewhat level versus spiking (NOT saying masks PREVENT transmission as they clearly don't -- cases still were going on during them times masks were most widespread in use). Thinking the virus somehow will be HALTED with masks is just hogwash. Again, use mainly is just serving to keep the curve a bit flatter (though at the same time that slows development of herd immunity and actually may keep virus around longer if vaccine isn't released soon).
3) MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL -- those who have comorbidities, epsecially the aged with comorbidities are where FOCUSED protective efforts most need to be made. Not sure if y'all have seen reference to this point, but some estimates put nearly half the deaths that have occurred in nursing homes / facilities caring for aged and or invalid sick. Interestingly, in Tallahassee where I live 6 of 8 deaths (out of a population of about 300,000 in the county) took place in a single care facility. Not a point the main stream media really wants to focus on though, as that won't adequately "sell" panic among those of us not living in nursing homes.
bigbendmarine
5 year old buck +
For anyone interested, this chart that NYC was keeping in their peak days and that the city was actually publishing directly speaks to how comorbidities have such a key role in mortality. Can't say I'm completely surprised but at some point the city decided to quit sharing such data updates... guess it wasn't fitting the "sales message" of the day...
jsasker007
5 year old buck +
The only thing that surprises me about that is the number of people in the "unknown" gender class. Seems people aren't even sure if they are male or female in this country. Two people that are the most confused and wrong the majority of the time but still control the sheeple are Biden and Fauci in my opinion.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
A large percent of the elderly people in the care facilities that were rubber stamped COVID would have been dead by now if COVID never would have happened. PERIOD
This is complete bullshit!!! They are threatening to shut us down again and make masks mandatory. Criminals are killing people, burning buildings down, taking over portions of our cities and NOBODY is doing jack shit about it. How far does it have to go until we get sick and tired of this class warefare and take our country back? This upcoming election will the the most important election in our countries history and our fellow man is going to fail us misserably and just allow the Libs and there gang of criminals to take over without so much as a peep. Like i said months ago, If this was the 17-18-1900's every single government official would have been swing from a rope. We have turned into a spineless nation who just wants their cell phones and free shit.
This is complete bullshit!!! They are threatening to shut us down again and make masks mandatory. Criminals are killing people, burning buildings down, taking over portions of our cities and NOBODY is doing jack shit about it. How far does it have to go until we get sick and tired of this class warefare and take our country back? This upcoming election will the the most important election in our countries history and our fellow man is going to fail us misserably and just allow the Libs and there gang of criminals to take over without so much as a peep. Like i said months ago, If this was the 17-18-1900's every single government official would have been swing from a rope. We have turned into a spineless nation who just wants their cell phones and free shit.
jsasker007
5 year old buck +
I know I sure don't want a "new" normal--the old one was bad enough.
roymunson
5 year old buck +
Had this conversation today with a guy, and given the choice between the 2, i'll take masks vs shutting things down again.
I too agree the whole thing is out of control, but don't shut things down again. I cant handle that.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
I won’t wear a mask or shut down my business. I don’t give a dam who they think is or isn’t essential.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
jsasker007
5 year old buck +
The first time around they let larger businesses stay open while the little guys went broke. Government needs to shrink drastically and stop letting criminals run the show.
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
The last few months have given us a lot of information that we can act on. Various states, officials, and people have pretended the virus isn't a big deal or would just go away or some vague "personal responsibility" would contain it. Those approaches have not been effective for very long. It is true that most people that get it won't get very sick. It is also true that there are large numbers of at risk people that can get very sick. Rising infection rates means that any region's health care system will be overwhelmed without intervention. We need enough people practicing social distancing, hand washing, and wearing masks to keep the infection rates manageable so we can keep economic activity going. Things will only get tougher when flu season starts up again in a few months (get a flu shot). If too few people act responsibly, then governors and counties will have to close some things down, choosing winners and losers, until its under control again. This sucks and it ain't fair but the virus doesn't care why people don't want to wear masks to avoid getting other people sick.
H20fwler
5 year old buck +
This concerns me; https://www.axios.com/chinese-coron...ank-f82b6918-d6c5-45f9-90b8-dad3341d6a6e.html
Reading more and more about the covid testing here being compiled into a large government DNA data bank. Many ways for this to go off the track as far as privacy/HIPAA/infringed rights/law enforcement overreach. It not only effects person tested but all their relatives?
Reading more and more about the covid testing here being compiled into a large government DNA data bank. Many ways for this to go off the track as far as privacy/HIPAA/infringed rights/law enforcement overreach. It not only effects person tested but all their relatives?
chummer
5 year old buck +
I don’t get the blow back on masks. I would make it optional for employees and mandatory for anyone coming into a place of business. At least in this state employees have their temp taken every day and have to sign they don’t have any other symptoms. We can be pretty sure the majority of workers are clear. You can’t be sure someone coming in doesn’t have it and masks do work to some degree. I have a germ phobia so I wouldn’t mind seeing masks stay. Many people are gross they need to be covered up. Wearing the mask for more than 30 minutes does suck but how often are you some place you would need it on for more than 30 minutes? It also solves the ugly person problem, maybe some butterfaces can get some lovin
roymunson
5 year old buck +
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like they're living a double life?
I'm at work, in the world all day, seeing reports about the virus, social unrest, and the world coming to an end. I go home, throw a ball with the boys, or run a drill for an hour or 2, and never even think about this nonsense, until I get back to work the next morning.
Totally cliche to say "I went to the farm and all my troubles just disappear" but last night I stuck a couple dunstan chestnuts in the ground where I'd had a couple die this spring. Hung a couple cameras and generally was driving around the property as the sun cooled down and started sinking and, ya know what, life was just ok.
As people, we can't be wound up all day, every day. This is gonna lead to a lot of other problems. What's gonna happen is what's gonna happen. None of us are powerful enough to change it on a macro scale. We can affect our families, kids, and those we come in contact with. Other than that, deal with it and keep rolling.
I'm at work, in the world all day, seeing reports about the virus, social unrest, and the world coming to an end. I go home, throw a ball with the boys, or run a drill for an hour or 2, and never even think about this nonsense, until I get back to work the next morning.
Totally cliche to say "I went to the farm and all my troubles just disappear" but last night I stuck a couple dunstan chestnuts in the ground where I'd had a couple die this spring. Hung a couple cameras and generally was driving around the property as the sun cooled down and started sinking and, ya know what, life was just ok.
As people, we can't be wound up all day, every day. This is gonna lead to a lot of other problems. What's gonna happen is what's gonna happen. None of us are powerful enough to change it on a macro scale. We can affect our families, kids, and those we come in contact with. Other than that, deal with it and keep rolling.
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
I have always lacked trust in our self serving government, that I admit. But that lack of trust pushes me to research and be informed about key issues that affect my, or my family’s life. There are a lot of important factors that the fear mongering news don’t talk about, all we hear is the infection rates.
I ask people to dig through the CDC website and answer questions that you have for yourself or are curious about, and not just listen to your TV. I went digging and have realized that basically Covid only causes serious harm to the same group of people that are hospItalized by pneumonia or influenza yearly. Put a protective bubble around them and science says the faster this circulates, the faster we build an immunity to it (commonly known as herd immunity). They actually still today lump Covid, flu and pneumonia deaths all together. On the CDC site it goes into detail what groups to be concerned about and it IS NOT everyone.
For 95% of death certificates with Covid listed on the death cert. (how do they count Covid deaths? ALL death certificates with Covid listed, is how they count Covid deaths, it’s in the CDC information elsewhere, I ask you to look this stuff up) 95% of them have prior underlying conditions and the example the CDC gives is “terminal cancer”.
This screenshot is from the link below, it’s under “cause of death” section on that page.
l know this isn’t habitat talk but it is directly effecting every single one of us and the “news” only tells us what they want us to know. I have friends that have had family members have an unrelated to Covid heart attack and were refused heart surgery because of the current Covid situation. Both died and is directly attributed to not getting the necessary surgery but doctors and hospitals cant be held accountable (sued) for anything Covid related here in NY. Cuomo made an executive order specifically on that VERY early on.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
I ask people to dig through the CDC website and answer questions that you have for yourself or are curious about, and not just listen to your TV. I went digging and have realized that basically Covid only causes serious harm to the same group of people that are hospItalized by pneumonia or influenza yearly. Put a protective bubble around them and science says the faster this circulates, the faster we build an immunity to it (commonly known as herd immunity). They actually still today lump Covid, flu and pneumonia deaths all together. On the CDC site it goes into detail what groups to be concerned about and it IS NOT everyone.
For 95% of death certificates with Covid listed on the death cert. (how do they count Covid deaths? ALL death certificates with Covid listed, is how they count Covid deaths, it’s in the CDC information elsewhere, I ask you to look this stuff up) 95% of them have prior underlying conditions and the example the CDC gives is “terminal cancer”.
This screenshot is from the link below, it’s under “cause of death” section on that page.
l know this isn’t habitat talk but it is directly effecting every single one of us and the “news” only tells us what they want us to know. I have friends that have had family members have an unrelated to Covid heart attack and were refused heart surgery because of the current Covid situation. Both died and is directly attributed to not getting the necessary surgery but doctors and hospitals cant be held accountable (sued) for anything Covid related here in NY. Cuomo made an executive order specifically on that VERY early on.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
This is the ages and mortality rate of all Covid deaths.
See for yourself and note the CDC includes influenza and pneumonia deaths together with Covid deaths even though science has the ability to test them seperately...
The note at the bottom "Provisional death counts are based on DEATH CERTIFICATE DATA recieved" because that is how they count Covid deaths.
I think it is noteworthy that according to the CDC chart, we are at nearly ZERO deaths (as of 6/27/20) nationally. Some of that is the change in nursing home policies have been changed. All these crazy crowds of "protesters" haven't increased any numbers according to the CDC. What is the difference between crowds at a ball game, graduation ceremony or a protest?!? The only difference is the control factor.
See for yourself and note the CDC includes influenza and pneumonia deaths together with Covid deaths even though science has the ability to test them seperately...
The note at the bottom "Provisional death counts are based on DEATH CERTIFICATE DATA recieved" because that is how they count Covid deaths.
I think it is noteworthy that according to the CDC chart, we are at nearly ZERO deaths (as of 6/27/20) nationally. Some of that is the change in nursing home policies have been changed. All these crazy crowds of "protesters" haven't increased any numbers according to the CDC. What is the difference between crowds at a ball game, graduation ceremony or a protest?!? The only difference is the control factor.
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