Clover outcompetes my efforts for diversity??

[Foggy47]

Foggy... didn't someone tell you Palmer (pigweed) was pretty easy to get rid of a couple of years ago. Grin!

I keep looking for a way to repay you for that nudge (and for the book you sent me). Best change I made at my place was going no-till and crowding out that pigweed....next to logging my pines. Yeah....I am a slow Lerner. Grin.

Of course.....it didn't hurt that an affordable drill came along (Tar River). I hope that dude lasts a few years.

 

[Catscratch]

I keep looking for a way to repay you for that nudge (and for the book you sent me). Best change I made at my place was going no-till and crowding out that pigweed....next to logging my pines. Yeah....I am a slow Lerner. Grin.

Of course.....it didn't hurt that an affordable drill came along (Tar River). I hope that dude lasts a few years.

Just giving ya some crap Foggy! And I love that drill of your, envious!

Haven't followed these threads too close lately but it seems like some are planting highly diverse plots and expecting them to last forever. I'm huge into diversity and no tilling but I treat them like annuals even if I'm planting perennials. Constantly interseeding, starting over, adding new, etc. Might make changes in spring, summer, or fall. Might throw cattle on them for mob grazing or might strike a match and burn everything around them.

And I believe it matters what's next to the plot. I keep strips of grasses and pollinators around my plots. Those things house underground critters, help water infiltration, and keep beneficial/predator insects around. I guess what I'm getting at is whenever one of your species starts to take over to do some sort of reset, or interseed a strong competitor.

 

[Nightvision]

The way your post reads it seems as though you applied the Butyrac for the grass but that’s for weeds. Maybe I misread it.

I know the clover puts out nitrogen but I wonder if there was enough there? Wonder if you would have had better results had you applied some extra N?

 

[Foggy47]

The way your post reads it seems as though you applied the Butyrac for the grass but that’s for weeds. Maybe I misread it.

I know the clover puts out nitrogen but I wonder if there was enough there? Wonder if you would have had better results had you applied some extra N?

Ooops....I wrote Buterac by mistake. I should have said Clethodium. My bad. I did add a little nitrogen on some of my weaker ground. Maybe it helped a bit?

Edit: Went back and changed it to Cleth.

 

[Nightvision]

Ooops....I wrote Buterac by mistake. I should have said Clethodium. My bad. I did add a little nitrogen on some of my weaker ground. Maybe it helped a bit?

Edit: Went back and changed it to Cleth.

Was there a noticeable difference where you added the nitrogen? Maybe that’s all it was. Our tillage radishes seem to do the same thing when we drill them into our Durana. We don’t worry about it because winter in middle Georgia isn’t very stressful lol.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I had the same issue as the OP, but think I have it figured out. A friend and I weedwhacked an existing clover field after I had broadcasted kale and daikon radish into it. I told him to leave it 4-6" high. So he mowed it down to somewhere between 2-4". I however, took the more dense and higher growing clover side of the field and mowed it down to 6-8". I bet you would never guess which side had the better growing brassicas?...That would be my buddy's side. In the future I plan to do this earlier than August to see if the mowed clover thatch will help the brassicas get started. The brassicas are small, but I think given more time (I think I planted 8/20), a little more consistent rain and some even lower mowing they would have done better. I also broadcast some rye into it in early September for some added insurance (and to soak up some more of that clover-produced nitrogen).

 

[yoderjac]

I've posted this on other threads, but here is an example of it working out well. I mowed 1/2 (of the length) with a bushhog flat to the ground. The other half I sprayed with 1 qt/ac glyphosate. I then drilled WR and GHR into the suppressed clover. I believe it was ladino at the time.

I did this before a good rain. The radish had time to germinate before the clover began to fill in. You can see the result. I can't tell any difference at this point between the sides of the field. This was an older clover field that had a lot of grass encroachment. The following spring/summer, the half I sprayed with gly had less grass than the side I mowed flat.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Wind Gypsy]

As a well established lousy food plotter, my vote is to spray a solid 3+ acres with gly and drill brassicas into it next July to make sure you get a better stand of brassicas.

Did you try to broadcast rye over top of existing plots this year and if so did it take any better than prior attempts? If that worked with your improving soils it would make the spray and drill brassicas route even more appealing IMO because you know you can still get a solid rye stand for the next spring in your brassicas.

 

[SD51555]

I'm going to cover my clover plots in every type of cereal grain I want in the spring. Not mixed, but separated, spring barley, winter rye, and whatever else I can think of. I wanna see if a rye crop planted in the mud season can get ahead and stay ahead of the clover and muscle it's way through to a thick full crop the following year.

 

[Foggy47]

As a well established lousy food plotter, my vote is to spray a solid 3+ acres with gly and drill brassicas into it next July to make sure you get a better stand of brassicas.

Did you try to broadcast rye over top of existing plots this year and if so did it take any better than prior attempts? If that worked with your improving soils it would make the spray and drill brassicas route even more appealing IMO because you know you can still get a solid rye stand for the next spring in your brassicas.

I'm still holding out hope for a "reasonable" amount of brassica this fall. I DRILLED my rye and brassica this fall......100# rye / acre. Then I went back a few weeks later and broadcast more rye just before a big rain. The rye seems to be doing fine. .....and in places I do have fair to middling brassica. Just nothing like Jack shows in his pics tho.

I may consider nuking the centers of a few big plots next year to drill brassica into them. Gotta do a bit more long-range planning for a rotational plan if I go that route. Or.....I suppose I just hit the centers with Braisscas first (July) and rye later (Early Sept) .....and rinse and repeat each year? I think the rye would not need to be rolled until early to mid July or so. Could maybe add some pumpkins into that plan too. Hmmmm

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I suppose I just hit the centers with Braisscas first (July) and rye later (Early Sept) .....and rinse and repeat each year? I think the rye would not need to be rolled until early to mid July or so.

This is basically my plan. Basically lick creek rotation with late broadcasted rye over top of everything and a clover component in everything so there is always spring clover and rye.

 

[Tree Spud]

Background: (I know this is bit long winded....but I need to set the stage)

Started my no-till journey in August of '21. My first seeding was 100 lbs of rye and 34 lbs of a mix of clovers, brassica and peas. I have four clover varieties of Durana, Alice, Ladino, and medium red clover. I had a pretty good start in fall with frequent rains after drilling into nuked attempts of spring / summer failed crops. Was very satisfied coming into '22 Spring with great rye and clovers and in June I planted GCC Summer Release mix. I got some reward for that into July and August with some sorgum and beans in my now very well established clovers. 8 acres worth.

In late June I used my roller crimper to lay a very nice Matt of rye over all my plots........and watched the clover emerge through the rye. Perfect!

After mid-July I planted some GH Radish, Forage Collards, PT Turnips to get some growth for fall. Not much reward for that effort but now when I get to August I do see a "fair" mix of some of these brassica leaves in my plots. Not great.....but hoping for more. I'm in zone 3 in Northern MN......so In late August it was time to get my winter rye and another mix of clovers and brasica drilled into the now very lush clover plots.

During the summer I did a few applications of (edit) Clethodium where I had grasses and mowed over the top of my clover to control broadleaves. These efforts were timely and seemed to do the trick.

I did mow a few strips to the "nubs" in my August efforts......but otherwise drilled these seeds into the standing lush clover. The areas where I mowed short did a bit better than the un-mowed.....but that clover I mowed came back like gangbusters. The rye planted in late August, has come in well in the 7.5" strips thought my plots and I feel certain I will get a decent stand of rye for weed control and mulch again for fall and into next spring.

Now my concerns and how to fix it?

I should not complain as I have about 8 acres of beautiful clovers that are reasonably weed free and some mixture of brassica forage intermixed through most of my plots. My issue is......that I do not have good brassica stands to attract the deer once that clover diminishes due to the onset of cold weather......which is just now starting here. We getting some nighttime freezes now.......and that clover will be mostly gone come our rifle season.....where I will need to rely on the rye to feed the deer. I don't think I have enough decent brassica to draw and basically no turnip bulbs or radish bulbs.

I suppose it's too late this year to get a great result and I will "limp through" with the clover and rye and meager brassica's I have.....but there is always a better way to do things. So my question for next year becomes: How should I set-back my clover to establish a better brassica result for fall of 2023? Should I do small brassica plots via nuking or mowing areas?.....or what do you guys do??

The pic below may be the best of my brassica in the clovers......not a horrible situation.....I just want to learn how to do better next year. Those pics are now a month old....that sorgum is brown and the clovers are beginning to diminish. Thanks for considered input to my questions above.

I have tried for years to overseed brassicas into clover and no matter what did (cutting clover, etc.), the clover always out competed the brassica.

This year I overseeded with hairy vetch & winter rye, along with brassicas, and this spring I will drill in sunflower, hybrid sorghum, sunhemp, and peas. I will let the OM grow out and then terminate it along with the clover in early to mid summer. I will then drill in the brassicas, forage rape, & kale along with some other legumes, and then overseed with red & frosty berseem clover once the others have gotten a jump start. Then in early fall will overseed with WR.

I may have to do 2 sprayings to terminate the high/bushy OM and them to terminate the clover.

I think this will accomplish my goals of improving OM & thatch layer for soil building, water retention, nitrogen production, crop rotation, and year round food source.

 

[omicron1792]

Clover seems to be one of those plants that “lives” underground. What you see on top is not the main part of the plant. So even when you mow short or hit with light Gly the roots and stolons underground are sucking up water and nutrients.

Seems to get something to grow in it like brassica you might need to actually kill a strip with herbicide or discing to give brassicas a chance.

Or, can overseed with rye and live without the brassicas.

 

[Catscratch]

Oooooo, just gave me an idea. Lower the boom on a sprayer or adjust spray to a narrow swath. Spray rows into your clover then plant your brassicas into those rows. I believe in edge. I think soil life under the spray will repopulate quickly if unaffected organisms are only a few inches away. I've been known to remove every other tooth on a bucket and drag grooves into a plot for planting. You could calibrate your spraying to your bucket teeth spacing and essentially have a free no-till system.

 

[Foggy47]

Oooooo, just gave me an idea. Lower the boom on a sprayer or adjust spray to a narrow swath. Spray rows into your clover then plant your brassicas into those rows. I believe in edge. I think soil life under the spray will repopulate quickly if unaffected organisms are only a few inches away. I've been known to remove every other tooth on a bucket and drag grooves into a plot for planting. You could calibrate your spraying to your bucket teeth spacing and essentially have a free no-till system.

I like this idea. Wonder if SD is listening and if he can attach a tooth to his old poop plastic bucket. (Sorry SD I could not help myself).

I do think some good nuked strips would / could work quite well.....just gonna be hard to remember where those strips are.....unless you wait a few days until they wilt.....or perhaps flag em? On Second thought.....I suppose I could mow the clover short and then nuke the mowed strips.......but that is not as effective of a means at killing IME. Lets keep working this strip idea for "the ultimate brasica strips in a clover plot".

 

[Wind Gypsy]

"the ultimate brasica strips in a clover plot".

Sounds like a Sturgis youtube video title. Must be the word ultimate.

 

[Foggy47]

When you terminate clover with a chemical.....does it give back the same N credits you would receive by tilling that clover down? I ASSUME so.....but I'm not much of an agronomist.

 

[omicron1792]

When you terminate clover with a chemical.....does it give back the same N credits you would receive by tilling that clover down? I ASSUME so.....but I'm not much of an agronomist.

It’s my understanding Foggy that plants really only give those back when they die, so I guess it doesn’t matter how it’s terminated.

 

[Foggy47]

It’s my understanding Foggy that plants really only give those back when they die, so I guess it doesn’t matter how it’s terminated.

sounds like a stupid question when I re-read it....lol.

 

[SD51555]

I like this idea. Wonder if SD is listening and if he can attach a tooth to his old poop plastic bucket. (Sorry SD I could not help myself).

I do think some good nuked strips would / could work quite well.....just gonna be hard to remember where those strips are.....unless you wait a few days until they wilt.....or perhaps flag em? On Second thought.....I suppose I could mow the clover short and then nuke the mowed strips.......but that is not as effective of a means at killing IME. Lets keep working this strip idea for "the ultimate brasica strips in a clover plot".

Poop bucket may be back in business here the way the world is going. And I’m gonna be collecting fees to use it.

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