Cloning Machnines - Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I KNOW you've been doing a lot of reading on propagating persimmons. Have you ever read this paper?
"Single-node Stem Cuttings from Root Suckers to Propagate a Potentially Dwarfing Rootstock for Japanese Persimmon?"

http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/10/4/776.full.pdf+html
It was published in Hort Technology, and I believe it's interesting and might be helpful for your projects.

Blitz,
Thanks for the link. It is one of the papers I read. It was a good read and is one that helped me understand a few things.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

The USDA/NRCS web sight says persimmon can be propagated from cuttings, but not all cuttings are created equal. Persimon can be started from cuttings, but it's difficult. I started pears from cuttings, and got two pears from about a dozen cuttings. So with Persimmon plant lots of cuttings, expecting most to die.
Two things I noticed from your pics. #1 there should be 2/3 of the cutting in the medium, so the top doesn't dry out. #2 the hood, or a clear plastic bag should be used to create a humid/greenhouse effect.
Persimmon has no anaerobic tolerance, which means it doesn't survive in saturated soil or flooding. That tells me that the cuttings should be in moist, but not saturated soil. Rooting cuttings is a balancing act between rooting and rotting, and sand is less likely to cause decay than soil.
Some cuttings will leaf, but that doesn't mean they've rooted. When plants leaf, you're halfway there, and humidity is important when leaves appear. Without humidity or a mist system, leafed out cuttings are likely to die, because the leaves are drawing from a cutting that's not rooted.
When a plant can be rooted from cuttings, that doesn't necessarily mean hardwood cuttings like we discuss on the forum. Cuttings can be hardwood, semi-hardwood or softwood. It appears the best success with persimmon is semi-hardwood. Here is info:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seeding-Propagation-733/Wild-persimmon.htm
Good luck, and I hope to see success pics. :)

Brushpile,
Thanks! Just to be clear, my first experiment used 10 dormant cuttings. Not because I think they have the most chance, but because that is what I have right now. I used different planting depths and different lengths so that I could compare any successes to failure.
Rather than a hood over individual plants, the entire rootmaker tray was in an indoor greenhouse enclosed with plastic with a humidifier and heater inside. I also had a remote sensor inside to measure temp and humidity. My hope was that this would prevent dry out. I did not mist and perhaps I should have.
Most all of my cuttings leafed out but the leaves eventually shriveled and died. When I extracted the cuttings, rooting was minimal.
Everything you say is spot on with my understanding. I will be trying new wood and herbaceous cuttings this year as well.
The thing I like about using the cloning machine is that I can examine rooting anytime without disturbing the plant. I'll be posting more pics as things progress...or don't.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Does your rooting machine come with a lid? If not it may help to cover them with something to keep the humidity up. i agreee w/ brushpile you need to experiment with different types of cuttings too...dormant hardwood is a start but you can take softwood and semis later on. Also, you may consider something to keep algae at bay. A product called zerotol is often used...its basically a very concentrated form of hydrogen peroxide. It converts to something else rather quickly so you'll need to keep adding it. Try it without first but if you start getting slimes and algae you'll need to try something to set it back.

Trophy Doe,
No. I know some of these come with domes, but I decided to buy one without a dome. I did that on purpose. The dome limits the height of the cuttings. I wanted to be able to experiment with different sizes. I have the unit inside an indoor greenhouse like this one:

The lights are raised of course. There is a remote sensor that lets me monitor humidity.
Thanks for the tip on zerotol, I'll check it out. I was actually looking at anti-algae products when I bought the aquarium heater, but I wasn't sure what effect they would have on the cuttings. It is good to know there is a product intended for this.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Just an idea that I had. No research or previous knowledge.
Do you think it will help the cuttings from drying out on top if you coat the cuttings (the top portion) with grafting wax?
Chris

Chris,
Yes I do. If you scroll back up and look at the pictures of the batch in the cloning machine, you will see yellow tops. Guess what that is? Yep, it is Doc somebody's magic grafting gunk (or some such name). It is the stuff folks recommended for sealing grafting wounds.
As soon as I got back to camp with the persimmon cuttings, I dipped the top end in the grafting compound to seal it. I did not seal the bottom end of course, but I did re-cut it at a 45 just prior to applying rooting hormone and placing it in the machine.
I think with most cuttings, sealing not necessary. I also don't think dry-out was the primary cause of my previous failure. When I did the post mortem, I found insufficient rooting to support the leaf-out, so once the stored energy was consumed, they were doomed. Persimmons take so long to root, I do think top dry-out can become a factor if I can get more rooting. There is also a balance of making sure you don't get mold, so I think any means like sealing that prevents unnatural moisture loss is a wise thing to do.
Like you, I have no data on it, but it just seemed like the thing to do.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

... Also, you may consider something to keep algae at bay. A product called zerotol is often used...its basically a very concentrated form of hydrogen peroxide. It converts to something else rather quickly so you'll need to keep adding it. Try it without first but if you start getting slimes and algae you'll need to try something to set it back.

I just took a look at zerotol. The label shows 27% H202 as the only active ingredient. Over the counter hydrogen peroxide label show 3% H2O2 and the rest purified water. If I'm looking at the right mix on the zerotol label, they are calling for a 1% solution for clean water in irrigation systems and for fogging plants. If my math is right, for by 2 1/2 gal tank (320 oz), I would use 3.2 Oz of zerotol or 28.8 oz of the pharmacy hydrogen peroxide. I can get that for about $2.00 for 48 oz.
If I'm looking at the pricing right, zerotol is running about $0.48/oz in 2 1/2 gal size ($154). The pharmacy stuff is running about $0.04/oz which is an equivalent price of $0.38/oz when the concentration is accounted for.
Since I'm working on a small scale and the pharmacy stuff is actually less expensive, I may got that route if I start to see fungus or algae issues.
If I'm missing something please let me know. You folks who do greenhouse stuff on a larger scale and for a lot longer than I have are a valuable resource to those of us starting out.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Last winter I kind of created my own cloning machine using milk jugs. I cut the top off the jugs so I could put pear cuttings in sand. The jug created a humid environment, and the sand didn't cause decay. The milk jug opening was about two inches, so humidity was partially retained. The cuttings were inserted so that only 1-2 buds were above the soil. The cuttings were placed in a dimly lit location, to retard top growth while roots formed, and I think that's important. After the cuttings were rooted they were transplanted in potting soil, taken outside and grown in the shade.
All of the pear cuttings produced leaves, but only two rooted. Your cloning machine interests me, because I would be able to start softwood cuttings from things like Eastern Wahoo, Strawberry Bush... I'm very interested in seeing your success with softwood and semi-hardwood cuttings. It's the logical next step for me.

 

[yoderjac]

From what I've seen, these cloning machines do a very good job on plants that root easily or even with some difficulty. I'm asking a lot for persimmons especially with dormant wood.
Sorry for the pot link, but these guys have some good instructions:
http://forum.grasscity.com/do-yourself/444974-lets-build-clone-machine-*step-step*.html
http://www.technologygarden.net/ind...-your-own-homemade-aeroponic-cloning-machine/
I went ahead and bought a commercial version but I don't see any reason why the homemade versions above would not do just as good a job if you want to save some money.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

:eek: Too funny, but those boys definately know how to do the cloning thing.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I was thinking coat the whole top with wax not just the cuts. The man who showed me his method of grafting last year used Gulf Wax Paraffin Wax and he coated the whole scion and the graft.
Chris

I had not thought of that. I use parafilm when grafting to keep the scion from drying out. I think that performs the same function as the wax. When I'm bark grafting to male rootstock, it is often a couple inches in diameter compared to the tiny scions. I use the wax to cover the large wound and parafilm to cover the scions. However, when grafting the scion is exposed to the outdoors. I would think the humidity control would keep the scion from drying out indoors. I thought the open wound from the cut might take less energy from the cutting trying to heal and it might cause excess dry-out.
Perhaps with a future batch I may give the idea a try.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

about the only other thing I can think of trying would be another fall experiment. Cuttings from known good females taken just after leaf drop, grafted onto root cuttings.

 

[yoderjac]

Wish I could help on this one but I've never tested to see if there is a difference. Zerotol in solution w water does seem to feel different than the h202...maybe it has some type of surfactant in it to slow its breakdown.

I wonder if that is because of the higher concentration. The label says 27% H202 and 73% inert ingredients. I don't think a surfactant would be considered inert.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, it has now been almost a week. I decided to check the cloning machine. There is little if any sign of rooting yet:

There is clearly a green tint to the wood where I made the 45 degree cut. I'm not sure if this is good or bad. It is roughly the same shade as the cambium layer where I scraped off the bark, so I'm hoping it is a good sign, not a bad one.
The picture is a little fuzzy, but there may be a little bit of rooting starting on the scion on the top left of the picture below:

I let them dry off a bit and then dipped rows 1-3 in rooting hormone again and let them sit for an hour before turning the pump back on. I'll check them again in another week.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

The suggestions on this thread also got me thinking about starting root cuttings. While I was at the farm to day I took some root cuttings. Not from a persimmon, but from an equally hard to reproduce plant, a Jujube. Most Jujube are grafted on to wild non-productive rootstock, but the few I have are a tigertooth variety that is grown on its own rootstock. My Jujube were planted a couple years ago and haven't fruited yet, so I don't know which ones are more productive. I simply used the largest tree.
I started with two sections of root that look like this:

Next I cut them into sections that look like this:

I planted 10 of them in rootmaker cells with the entire root under the potting mix. I cut one of them long and placed it in a 1 gal rootbuilder II container.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

It has only been a couple of days but I decided to check the persimmons in the cloning machine again. I think Trophy Doe was right. It looks like I might be getting some kind of algae growth on the inside of the tank. I'm surprised. I thought algae needed light. I am intentionally not turning on the overhead lights to slow top growth. The tank is opaque and the only light would be through the slits in the neoprene scion holders. I'm not 100% sure it is algae. It is more brown than green. It may actually from the persimmons, but the fact that it is adhering to the sides of the tank makes me thing algae.
So, I added the pharmacy H202 as discussed above.
I did not notice any rooting, but I did notice that a couple buds are starting to turn green. This is not a great sign in that I hoped to see some rooting development before any top side green.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Keep plugging jack. You may find the missing link the persimmon folks in the orient have been trying to do for more than a thousand years. I think they finally gave up. I would try again with green shoots here in a few weeks. Are the hardwood cuttings callusing yet? If you can get callus the roots may happen.

 

[yoderjac]

Not much yet. I do plan to try green cuttings. I also plan to try a modified air rooting approach. In august, I plan to us use a sharp knife and cut a branch and insert a toothpick. This is one of two techniques they use as part of air rooting. However, instead of applying a rooting mix, I just plan to let the tree grow. I'll just mark the branch.
In December when the tree goes dormant, I'll prune off that branch just below the tooth pick. If things go as I hope, the branch will still be alive, fed by the cambium layer I did not cut, but it should have had all summer to begin to form a callus since the toothpick should keep the wound from closing. I will then put that in my cloning machine. It should have a real head start (if it works).
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, I decided to check the cloning machine today. Top growth is moving slowly as I had hoped. I still have the lights turned off.

The good news I think I'm starting to see callusing. I know the pics are a bit fuzzy, but Trophy Doe, does this look like callusing to you?

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

yes those do look like there is some action, that double dip of hormone might be working its magic.

What encourages me is looking at the minimal top growth. I think this means these scions are not sending so much energy to the top that they burn out before roots establish.
I'm not sure if the second hormone dip had an effect or not. Callus development seems to be occurring on random scions, not obviously more on the double dip set.
Come this Sunday, I plan to give a third dose of rooting hormone to only rows 1 and 2.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I'm still following along. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[yoderjac]

It has now been two weeks. There is not noticeable difference in rooting. There are some signs of callusing and no root. I didn't try to take close-up pictures since there is no significant change from the ones I posted above. Here is an overview pic:

I reapplied rooting hormone to rows 1 and 2 today and let it sit for a couple hours before turning the pump back on.
I am still keeping the artificial light off and they are only getting indirect light, but the top growth is starting.

Thanks,
Jack