Cleth / COC and rain

[MoBuckChaser]

I am spot checked so much it would make your head spin. And what that does or can do, is trigger spot check for every customer in my data base if they choose, and right now that is just under 900. If any inspector gets a bug up their ass they can come to your house and inspect your spray records for compliance in MN, records you must keep, whether you are a licensed applicator or not, for the product purchased in your name, from my establishment. What are the chances that you will be checked, slim, but I have had customers spot checked. I go to continuing education classes all the time. One thing that has been pounded into my head, is if what you are using your pesticide for is not specifically stated on a label for that said purpose, it will be determined you are not in compliance, and subject to possible punishment. Nothing in the Cleth labels says, you can spray food plot clover or any clover in any other states than the 3 listed! Once again, its plain and simple! Well, not for everyone......

 

[Tree Spud]

Jack,
There is a ridiculous amount of fine print involved in these things, so it's rarely as simple as one might think if an inspector gets a bug up their rear. What type of grass one is targeting in a very specific setting could result in a totally off-label use, even if unintentional. I will give a personal example: when the inspector visited me, we were going over my records. She was good about it, but she pointed out that I didn't have all the same EPA numbers etc. listed on my individual spray locations even though it was listed as being a continued use from the same tank mix that I used (and recorded info for) at the previous location. It was clearly all recorded in such a way that it was obvious (so she didn't push it), but it could have cost me if she wanted it to, and there would have been nothing I could have done about it, even though she was looking for an insane amount of duplication. My standards are higher than someone using something for personal use by John Q. Plotplanter, but the point is that there is so much left to the discretion of an inspector anything could happen.
MO is a dealer and probably has to deal with inspectors once a month (more if he is a commercial applicator as well), so I feel pretty sure he is giving wise advice. The whole point is it doesn't really matter what a person thinks MAY be okay, but rather to just adhere to the "loose lips sink ships" motto.

So Jeff23 ... what you are saying is that Mo threw in the white flag ... he gives in and agrees that jack is correct?

.

 

[Jeff23]

So Jeff23 ... what you are saying is that Mo threw in the white flag ... he gives in and agrees that jack is correct?

.

Hmmm, that is certainly an interesting interpretation of what I wrote. I'm pretty sure MO can answer that for you, though, and you might even get a "bahahahaha."

 

[MoBuckChaser]

Nope, no need to answer, just can't fix stupid sometimes!

Bahahahahahahahahaha!

 

[Alpha Doe]

Lets play nice boys. Calling people stupid is going way to far. :( This bickering crap is why I took a year off QDMA.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
There is a ridiculous amount of fine print involved in these things, so it's rarely as simple as one might think if an inspector gets a bug up their rear. What type of grass one is targeting in a very specific setting could result in a totally off-label use, even if unintentional. I will give a personal example: when the inspector visited me, we were going over my records. She was good about it, but she pointed out that I didn't have all the same EPA numbers etc. listed on my individual spray locations even though it was listed as being a continued use from the same tank mix that I used (and recorded info for) at the previous location. It was clearly all recorded in such a way that it was obvious (so she didn't push it), but it could have cost me if she wanted it to, and there would have been nothing I could have done about it, even though she was looking for an insane amount of duplication. My standards are higher than someone using something for personal use by John Q. Plotplanter, but the point is that there is so much left to the discretion of an inspector anything could happen.
MO is a dealer and probably has to deal with inspectors once a month (more if he is a commercial applicator as well), so I feel pretty sure he is giving wise advice. The whole point is it doesn't really matter what a person thinks MAY be okay, but rather to just adhere to the "loose lips sink ships" motto.

That is an argument I can understand and I completely agree. There is a different education requirement, threshold and standard for a licensed applicator and is the primary reason many herbicides are restricted to licensed applicators and not available to the public. I also don't disagree with the concept of not advertising when one with a high degree of scrutiny is operating in a grey area.

I'm very comfortable with my application of Clethodim on non-crops and have discussed it freely with state folks. I've got no problem with a dealer or commercial applicator erring on the side of caution. I have an issue with someone trying to make food plotters operating within the bounds of the labeling afraid to discus their use. This only results in less informed average users doing dumb things like thinking if 4 oz is good 8 oz must be great. I'd much rather see folks discuss their use openly and learn.

On a personal note, my approach to food plotting is really changing over time. One of the areas is a much higher tolerance for "weeds" in many situations. My use of herbicides has really diminished in recent years.

Thanks,

jack

 

[yoderjac]

Lets play nice boys. Calling people stupid is going way to far. :( This bickering crap is why I took a year off QDMA.

Glad to see you're here. I always enjoyed your posts over there. The older I get, the less time I have for disparaging others. I won't be bullied and will stand my ground, but if you ever see me slipping to that level, feel free to call me on it!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Buckly]

If you can't use Cleth on clover, what good is it? It would just be a useless chemical.

 

[yoderjac]

If you can't use Cleth on clover, what good is it? It would just be a useless chemical.

No, there are many other applications listed on the label. It would be of much less value to most food plotters that don't grow crops though.

 

[Semisane]

Reading that whole "can vs. can't" use cleth discussion was a waste of time and energy. Each of us are going to do what we're going to do.

 

[Jeff23]

Reading that whole "can vs. can't" use cleth discussion was a waste of time and energy. Each of us are going to do what we're going to do.

That's fine, just understand that there are people employed by the government whose job it is to dish out fines to people who "are going to do what they're going to do." They know or can know everything you buy from a dealer. As I said before, they most likely won't bother a non-licensed individual using it for personal use, but the more you buy means the more likely your name pops up for a spot check.

 

[yoderjac]

That's fine, just understand that there are people employed by the government whose job it is to dish out fines to people who "are going to do what they're going to do." They know or can know everything you buy from a dealer. As I said before, they most likely won't bother a non-licensed individual using it for personal use, but the more you buy means the more likely your name pops up for a spot check.

Yes, and I'd also say there is a difference between just "doing what you want", and making a good faith attempt to follow the label directions. The last thing I'd want to do is to use a herbicide in a way that is harmful to myself, others, or my habitat. It is interesting that they know or can know everything you buy from a dealer. I don't recall ever dealing with a log or anything when I buy unrestricted herbicides from the local coop. Since I use a credit card, I'm sure they could figure it out.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Semisane]

The thing is - if I want to read several intractable positions stated over and over I can go to a political forum. Not interested in dealing with that here.

 

[yoderjac]

The thing is - if I want to read several intractable positions stated over and over I can go to a political forum. Not interested in dealing with that here.

I'm not sure I see that here. In post #40, Jeff took Mo's position and made a well reasoned argument pointing out differences between dealers, licensed applicators, and personal users. I conceded he has a very valid point. That is not intractability as I see it.

I do agree the name calling is a waste, and I'm sure I'm guilty of trying to explain the same thing in different ways when the name calling begins and dialog ceases. One reason I like forums like this is that there are usually well reasoned folks willing to step in and reason together. I'm always open to learn, and in this case, Jeff has helped me see just how much more intense the pressure and scrutiny is with licensed operators. That helped me understand Mo's knee jerk "don't talk about it" reaction. While I'm still concerned that that attitude is counterproductive when trying to help new folks on the forum, at least I better understand his intent.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[wiscwhip]

The real point is, ask all the questions you need from a "strictly learning and understanding" point of view, then SHUT UP about the actual "application" you intend to use that information for...........simple as that!

 

[MoBuckChaser]

The real point is, ask all the questions you need from a "strictly learning and understanding" point of view, then SHUT UP about the actual "application" you intend to use that information for...........simple as that!

10-4!

Bahahahahahahaha! Finally!

 

[Buckly]

That's fine, just understand that there are people employed by the government whose job it is to dish out fines to people who "are going to do what they're going to do." They know or can know everything you buy from a dealer. As I said before, they most likely won't bother a non-licensed individual using it for personal use, but the more you buy means the more likely your name pops up for a spot check.

I've bought Gly from Home depot and tractor supply and Cleth from Rural King and no one has ever ask my name!

 

[MoBuckChaser]

If you can't use Cleth on clover, what good is it? It would just be a useless chemical.

In our state it is mainly used to kill volunteer corn out of Soybeans.

 

[MoBuckChaser]

I've bought Gly from Home depot and tractor supply and Cleth from Rural King and no one has ever ask my name!

Be thankful for that!

 

[Buckly]

I see that. Cash only and no data base trail.