Chestnut stratification

[yoderjac]

Jack,

you sent me a copy of this in 2015

Sending it to you now by e mail

bill

Thanks so much! It is a great article for folks getting started growing trees with rootmakers. It used to be on the web somewhere but I couldn't find it anymore. I've attached a copy below for others who may be interested.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[silver_yummies]

I did just over 90 of them last year and I can also attest that it got crazy fast! I got 60 seeds in fridge right now and plan to wait another month before I put them in 18s. Last year at this time they were already under my lights and we had a weird spring so couldn’t plant them until way later than I thought. I aborted probably 25 of the smaller/weak ones by the time I went to the field with them.


Good luck!

 

[yoderjac]

That is a good point and is an example of how important it is for folks to put their location in their profile. In my area, the last threat of frost is mid-April. I try to roughly time my nuts so that they are ready for transplant from 18s into 1 gal RB2s about that time. I like to remove the nuts to make them somewhat less attractive to squirrel damage when I do the transplant. That way, I don't need room inside for 1 gal containers. I can transplant them as I move them outside to the deck.

18s are good for 12 to 16 weeks. That puts me starting nuts somewhere between mid-Dec and mid-Jan. This means that in most years, my chestnuts are cold stratified for closer to 60 days than 90. One year Wayne (wpdeer) and I did a test where we handled our chestnuts pretty much the same but he cold stratified for close to 90 days and mine were about 60 days. My germination rate was in the 70s% and his was well into the 90s%. This means even before I start culling, I'm losing about a quarter of the nuts I start with.

Folks further north can't take trees outside until much later. This means they can start nuts later and get plenty of cold stratification. That is one reason folks further north can wait for most of their nuts to have root radicles.

Location usually has an impact on technique.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[cavey]

That puts me starting nuts somewhere between mid-Dec and mid-Jan. This means that in most years, my chestnuts are cold stratified for closer to 60 days than 90. One year Wayne (wpdeer) and I did a test where we handled our chestnuts pretty much the same but he cold stratified for close to 90 days and mine were about 60 days. My germination rate was in the 70s% and his was well into the 90s%. This means even before I start culling, I'm losing about a quarter of the nuts I start with.

Folks further north can't take trees outside until much later. This means they can start nuts later and get plenty of cold stratification. That is one reason folks further north can wait for most of their nuts to have root radicles.

I think I found all of what Yoder said to be very true of what I found in doing my chestnuts. I had a longer cold stratification time and had a very high percentage of nuts with root radicles by the time I removed them from the medium I had them cold stratified in. In fact I had to plant them due to the length of the growing radicles. While handling them while checking for mold I broke a couple of them before moving them to individual (dixie cups) containers. I just plain started everything too early for what I was set up for. I'm not saying I would do anything different initially, I would just be prepared to handle bigger plants with a better set up grow area for them. I just never expected to have plants pushing 3 feet in height (counting the pots) double stacked still growing in my laundry room in the basement. I converted a metal shelving unit into a two layered grow rack with lights mounted on chains for adjusting, I ran out of space both width wise and height wise after potting up the plants 3 times.

I just wasnt prepared for 97% germination, I figured if I got 50 to grow that would be good... and by the time I potted them out to the bigger containers I was running out of space on the shelves. In the end I had a mini forest with pots stacked up beside the shelving unit. I had to rotate in and out so that they got their share of light. It was a real pain.

I think up here our last chance for a hard frost is considered around May 15th ish.

 

[yoderjac]

I think I found all of what Yoder said to be very true of what I found in doing my chestnuts. I had a longer cold stratification time and had a very high percentage of nuts with root radicles by the time I removed them from the medium I had them cold stratified in. In fact I had to plant them due to the length of the growing radicles. While handling them while checking for mold I broke a couple of them before moving them to individual (dixie cups) containers. I just plain started everything too early for what I was set up for. I'm not saying I would do anything different initially, I would just be prepared to handle bigger plants with a better set up grow area for them. I just never expected to have plants pushing 3 feet in height (counting the pots) double stacked still growing in my laundry room in the basement. I converted a metal shelving unit into a two layered grow rack with lights mounted on chains for adjusting, I ran out of space both width wise and height wise after potting up the plants 3 times.

I just wasnt prepared for 97% germination, I figured if I got 50 to grow that would be good... and by the time I potted them out to the bigger containers I was running out of space on the shelves. In the end I had a mini forest with pots stacked up beside the shelving unit. I had to rotate in and out so that they got their share of light. It was a real pain.

I think up here our last chance for a hard frost is considered around May 15th ish.

I did the same my first year. I transplanted to 1 gals a month before they went outside. I ended up rigging up a section where the lights go from floor to ceiling for it. I'm glad I did, I'm now using that area for apple grafts, but I was blindsided that first year as well.

 

[98uconn]

I am at the point where my chestnuts are all in RM 18’s with heat mats (soil temp is 70 degrees). The majority have radicles ranging from just started to several inches. The air temp is around 55 degrees and I have led grow lamps ready to go as well. I know there are many variables, but does anyone have a ballpark idea of how long it would generally take to see some top growth? Thank you again for any input.


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[TreeDaddy]

FWIW starting 4th season this spring

I usually start mine outdoors ~3/16 in RM18s after germination( radicles showing in long leaf sphagnum )

Usually takes 18-21 days before I see top growth

long growing season here and i baby them through container sizes in backyard before transplanting in the winter

bill

 

[yoderjac]

I am at the point where my chestnuts are all in RM 18’s with heat mats (soil temp is 70 degrees). The majority have radicles ranging from just started to several inches. The air temp is around 55 degrees and I have led grow lamps ready to go as well. I know there are many variables, but does anyone have a ballpark idea of how long it would generally take to see some top growth? Thank you again for any input.


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If you are starting them indoors under lights, your air temp is a bit low. I use a small oil filled heater and just rigged up an enclosure to keep that area warmer than the rest of my basement. I like to shot for 70 degrees and 80 degrees is even better.

Germination rates depend on the amount of cold stratification. Back in 2016 Wayne (wpdeer) and I did a comparison. We handled our nuts the same way the only difference was that he used Chinese and I used Dunstan and he cold stratified for almost 90 days and I cold stratified for 60 days. He got germination rates in the 90+% range and mine was in the mid 70% range. I charted both germination rates and top growth over time:

The red line is read with the right percentage axis. It indicates the percentage of nuts that would eventually germinate that were germinated by that date. It excludes nuts that never germinated. The blue line is read with the left axis. It is the actual number of nuts that showed top growth by the date.

This chart shows the number of cells that showed their first top growth on any given date. You can see that while most of the nuts produced the first signs of top growth about the same time, there were some that straggled in for the next couple weeks.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[98uconn]

Thank you for all the input. I don’t really have a good way to raise the air temp but I was hoping that they would still grow, if even at a lesser rate at the lower temp as long as I kept the soil temp up to 70 degrees.


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[yoderjac]

They will grow, but everything will be slower so don't give up if things don't seem to be happening.

 

[IkemanTx]

Starting next year, I plan on doing 4 different methods for oaks and chestnuts.

I will direct seed stratified nuts and protect from rodent damage. I plan on doing a LOT of this method, both because it is the least expensive, and because I expect lower percentages of success.

I will grow out and plant directly from RM18’s

I will plant from RM18’s into in-ground root containment bags go a season, then transplant in early winter after they go dormant.

And, I will direct seed into the in-ground root containment bags and transplant after they go dormant in early winter.


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[yoderjac]

Good luck with method 2. It was a total failure for me, but I don't provide supplemental care after planting. Here is my theory why. When we use a root pruning container system, we are doing a trade off. We are trading the advantages of a tap root for a large, dense, efficient root system with many tiny tips. I think there is a tipping point in terms of root ball size. When planting directly from 18s, the root ball is so small that regardless of how efficient it is, it is simply too small to tip the scale in favor of root pruning. In my climate, I think the tipping point is about the 1 gal size. That seems to be large enough for most trees to survive and a few to thrive. For me, it seems that 3 gal is where the root pruning system wins out. I would love to try planting from even larger root pruning containers, but in my situation, I just don't find it practical to transport and plant trees that large.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

I don't know of anyone with success planting directly from 18s in the absence of supplemental water

I have had decent survival with 1gal RBIIs by planting on north and east facing slopes in my region

This is my fourth year with the rootmaker system and the plan(starting this season) is to progress to 3 gal prior to transplant in the field

i will baby them over two growing seasons in the backyard

bill

 

[TreeDaddy]

Starting next year, I plan on doing 4 different methods for oaks and chestnuts.

I will direct seed stratified nuts and protect from rodent damage. I plan on doing a LOT of this method, both because it is the least expensive, and because I expect lower percentages of success.

I will grow out and plant directly from RM18’s

I will plant from RM18’s into in-ground root containment bags go a season, then transplant in early winter after they go dormant.

And, I will direct seed into the in-ground root containment bags and transplant after they go dormant in early winter.


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How will you protect from rodents?
i started a thread on this and am all ears for fresh ideas

bill

 

[IkemanTx]

Starting next year, I plan on doing 4 different methods for oaks and chestnuts.

I will direct seed stratified nuts and protect from rodent damage. I plan on doing a LOT of this method, both because it is the least expensive, and because I expect lower percentages of success.

I will grow out and plant directly from RM18’s

I will plant from RM18’s into in-ground root containment bags go a season, then transplant in early winter after they go dormant.

And, I will direct seed into the in-ground root containment bags and transplant after they go dormant in early winter.


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How will you protect from rodents?
i started a thread on this and am all ears for fresh ideas

bill

I am currently looking at either cut down PVC pipe or gutter downspout with wire mesh on top. I would pull the protection when the seedlings were large enough to remove the nut. We don’t have much in the way of moles, voles etc. so, my problem would be nice, rats, and a limited population of Fox squirrels.


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[98uconn]

I planted 85 barefoot Dunstans from Chestnut Hill in the spring if 2016 using planter tubes and stairs and 9 square feet of weed block per tree. I have a vinyl wrap on each tree inside the tube to protect rom voles.
For the first year I watered regularly with a 5gal bucket with small hole on the side to slowly drip and then switched to a drop irrigation system to save tons of time filling all those buckets. This past year I didn’t water at all...I’ve lost 3 or 4 trees since day 1 and had several nuts on 4 of the trees this past year. (I have lots of buckets with a small hole in them laying around now!)
This is the first time I’m starting from seed. I considered going right from the RM 18’s into tubes with drip irrigation but after reading on here and learning, I am concerned that the small root ball would have way too little room for error with regards to watering, so I’m going to at least go to 1 gal and then proceed from there depending on where I am in the growing season at that point. I may just hold them all and go right through the 3gal before planting.
It will cost more for all of the rootmaker pots but I’m also thinking I may be able to save on the cost of tubes at that point and just use the vinyl wrap. (That may be wishful thinking however as they still may not be large enough to handle the deer).
I’m anxious to see how it all plays out and will likely try more than one of the above methods depending how many viable trees I get.


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[TreeDaddy]

What watering schedule do you use with drip irrigation? (frequency,timing,duration,etc)

thanks,

bill

 

[98uconn]

What watering schedule do you use with drip irrigation? (frequency,timing,duration,etc)

thanks,

bill

I have a single drip emitter per tree delivering .5 gal/hr. I have a few 50 gal plastic drums on an old trailer. The few feet off the ground that it sits and the slight downhill slope of my field works very well to supply the emitters. During the summer, each tree gets about 7.5 gallons (they’re in rows of 13, each row gets 2 drums of water) per week delivered at .5 gal/hr, so it takes about 15 hours and gives a nice, through soaking.
The firs year, with the buckets, they got 5 gallons weekly-twice weekly, depending on rainfall.
Because last summer was extremely wet here, coupled with the fact that they were in their third season, I didn’t use any irrigation.


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[Rubee]

98 what part of the country did you plant those chestnuts in? Zone?

 

[yoderjac]

I see lots of potential issues here. I understand the thinking behind planting from 18s. I can get an early start...I can get a lot of seedlings going inexpensively...Maybe I can use drip irrigation. I had similar thinking when I started. It is flawed. Here is what I've learned:

Root pruning requires a system of containers to be effective. The real purpose of 18s is to prune the tap root. Most of the root branching occurs in the 4" above where you prune and that is why 18s are the depth they are, to maximize branching. Once that tap root is pruned, you can, if you have room and want to maximize growth, transplant into a 1 gal RB2. You don't have to wait for the 12 to 16 weeks. At first I thought this was necessary and beneficial, but a 1 gal RB2 is 7" tall and 6.5 inches wide. So, there is still right around 4" on all sides of the tap root. These take a lot more space, so from a practical standpoint, most folks keep them in 18s for the full 12 to 16 weeks indoors and then move to 1 gal when they take them outside. Nothing wrong with this approach, but you get a bit more growth transplanting early rather than waiting. You can't go too large because of the 4" rule.

When you plant in the field, the increased size and efficiency of the root ball need to offset the lack of a deep tap root. The next shortcut is to say "well, I'll just use drip irrigation " and plant from a smaller container. There are several problems with this. First, once you stop using root pruning containers, roots go back to growing normally. So, the rootball on seedling planted from an 18 will never have the efficiency of a root ball planted from a 1 gal RB2 and a seedling planted from a 1 gal RB2 will never have the efficiency of one planted from a 3 gal RB2. The size will increase, but you won't get the continued root branching. The second problem is that chestnuts don't like wet feet and they are susceptible to root rot when kept wet. They want to be saturated and then dry out. Unless you have a very stable climate, this just doesn't work. I have used drip irrigation successfully to keep trees alive but it is set very low. I often take trees to the farm during late summer and early fall since I only have the ability to transport a few at a time. These were in 3 gal RB2s. I hooked up drip irrigation. I found that if it is not set very low, rain will saturate them and the drip irrigation will keep them from drying out unless it is set very low. This makes the subject to some kind of root rot. If you have ever done a post mortem on a dead tree from an 18, you will often find a "carrot root". That is a tree that got infected. It is not the water that caused it, but the constant dampness favors the pathogen.

Another mistake I made was assuming I'll just plant so many trees deer will be overwhelmed. They will kill some and others will survive and grow well. I found deer will nip the central leader from every tree and kill none of them. Without tubes, I end up with bushes with no central leader and no nuts. Unless you have very low deer densities, you need tubes or cages.

A root pruning container system is not for everyone and every climate. It works well for me, but I have found it is a system and you can't go part way with it. I would either commit to transplanting between root pruning container until you fill a 3 gal RB2 or equivalent or just use direct seeding.

This year my Chestnut project is with Seguins: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/seguin-chestnut-experiment-and-request.10336/
In addition to the nut grafting which is the major focus of the thread, I got 4 seguin nuts and 3 of them germinated. Since I only have a few, I plan to do the transplant to 1 gal RB2s as soon as the tap roots are pruned. I'll document it on that thread with pics. Keep in mind that Seguins are smaller than other chestnuts so I don't expect the same growth rate as with Dunstans, but it will give folks a feel for early transplant.

By the way, even though it goes against my personal experience, situations and climates are different. I love to see all the experimenting. Please report back with your results, good or bad!

Thanks,

Jack