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Chestnut stratification

98uconn

Yearling... With promise
I have about 180 chestnuts stratifying right now with plans to start in RootMaker 18’s using grow lights and then transplant in spring to final location using tubes and weed mats (with drip irrigation).
My question is... a few have started developing radicles.. do I: 1)start just those individuals with radicles in the 18’s now and pull individually once radicles form, or, 2) wait until most have radicles and put all in 18’s at once (meaning some with radicles wont be in medium for a period of time)
My thinking is to use a 1:1:1 vermiculite, perlite, peat moss mixture as a growing medium.
Thank you for your input. (I live in Northeast PA for reference).


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Well, to start with, the concept of root pruning requires a system of containers, not just 18s. I've had almost zero success planting from 18s. I've had good survival planting after they fill 1 gal RB2s, but the best success with trees really flourishing when they are planted from 3 gal RB2s. I provide not supplemental water once trees are planted in the field. I would grow them out in rootmakers for at least one growing season. If I get the timing right, here in zone 7a, I can keep them in 18s for about 12 weeks or so, transplanting to 1 gal RB2s about the time I put them outside, and then a second transplant in late spring. You may not be able to get them to fill 3 gal RB2s in one season in your location.

If you can't use the full container system, I think you will be better off direct seeding them in the early spring.

A lot of when to put them into 18s is driven by the number of 18s you have. If I have enough 18s for all the nuts, I plant them all in 18s as soon as I see a few root radicles. If you have a limited number of 18s, you can just plant ones with radicles since you know they will germinate. I prefer to plant them all at once if possible because there is less variation in the stage of development of my trees. There is always some variation as they will still produce top growth at different rates. Another reason is that nuts determine up/down based on gravity just before the start producing the root radicle. They will readjust if you reorient them but it take time. The change in direction of the root radicle if it is severe can cause kinking of the root which can be an issue later in life the of the tree.

As for medium, if this is your first try, I'd use Promix or a similar professional mix (not miracle grow or a mix from a big box store). The key to a mix is that it is very well drained. If the root radicle is just a tiny white nub that has not showing direction yet, you generally want to plant the nut in the corner of the 18 on the flat side with the root radicle pointed toward the center. Some guys like to put them on top but I like mine covered slightly with medium. This will put the tap root in the center of the 18 and the top growth will be in the center as well. If the root radicle is already growing you want it to be point down with the nut as much on its side as possible.

You will want to use Osmocote as a fertilizer. There are lots of old thread on here about growing technique. This one shows some techniques I used to maximize growth with pictures: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...h-rootmakers-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5556/

Hope this helps,

Jack
 
Thank you for the information. My main problem is not having the room to overwinter a large number of trees so I was hoping to get them in the field in one season. From what I’ve learned, a fall planting isn’t ideal in my area so that’s why I thought I might have reasonable success going straight from the 18’s since they’d have protection and supplemental water. Considering that I’m just starting with radicals now, I’m not sure I’ll have time to step from 18’s to 1 gal and then get them planted all on the same season.


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Thank you for the information. My main problem is not having the room to overwinter a large number of trees so I was hoping to get them in the field in one season. From what I’ve learned, a fall planting isn’t ideal in my area so that’s why I thought I might have reasonable success going straight from the 18’s since they’d have protection and supplemental water. Considering that I’m just starting with radicals now, I’m not sure I’ll have time to step from 18’s to 1 gal and then get them planted all on the same season.


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Keep in mind that most of what you hear about planting time is for bare root trees, not root pruned trees. Here is the issue. A root pruned tree has a dense very efficient root system that has lots of root tips and thus can transport a lot more nutrients and water from a given area. However, the area contained in an 18 is tiny. So, when you plant from an 18, it has very little reach. If you plant the tree at home and watch over it daily watering when necessary, you can probably get a tree planted from an 18 to survive. It doesn't take much time to dry out the soil a couple inches deep which is the reach of an 18. There is a big jump in area from an 18 to a 1 gal RB2 and even a bigger jump to a 3 gal RB2. However, just planting from the larger container does little good, the roots need to have filled the container for the root ball to be that big and that takes time.

Here the last threat of frost is about mid April and I'm sure it is later in your area. Trees grown under lights need to be acclimated to the sun slowly and that takes some time. Even though the trees can go outside to filtered sun when the threat of frost is gone, they are going from a place where nights were relatively warm to a place where they are much colder. This can slow them down. Since trees in your area will go dormant before they do here, your growing season is shorter on both ends.

If you decided to go the indoor start with root pruning containers route, I would at least keep them in 1 gal RB2s for the summer and plant them in the fall. Unlike bare root trees that spend a season of sleep, then a season of creep, before they finally leap. When planting from an RB2, the root ball is completely intact and there is almost no gap in growth. I believe a larger root ball with a fall plant will give you better results by far than planting directly from an 18. You may want to split your trees into two groups and do both. Or, perhaps 3 groups and direct seed some in early spring as soon as the ground thaws.

By the way, I tried something similar with persimmons. I went for very high volume planting hundreds from 18s. The results were dismal. I've found that I've had to cut back my volume each year and plant across more years to get good results. I like to start with a lot of nuts, they are cheap. Some won't germinate. Some will germinate but die. Some won't die but just wont' be prolific growers. I cull keeping only the best trees when I go from 18s to 1 gal RB2s and cull a second time when I go to 3 gal RB2s.

Thanks,

Jack
 
When I've started in RM18s, i used a Promix or similar rather than mix my own. I'd move to the 18 as soon as I saw the radicle. Once near last frost, i acclimated outside, brought inside on cold nights, and planted outside by June. Watered and good protection. Columbia Co PA.

I found managing watering with 18s to be challenging, dry for a few days can kill but too wet for too long and they damp off and die. Easy to overcorrect too much. Apple have been more forgiving than chestnut in this regard.

After my 18s were full, i saved the rest that were stratifying and planted directly ones that had radicles.
 
Watering with the rootmaker system has been a challenge for me as well

i began to "get it right" my 3rd year growing baby chestnuts using the '"weight" method that Jack describes

wayne (wbpdeer) closes his eyes and feels the leaves of a healthy seedling between his fingers

I'm still learning

bill
 
Thank you for the valuable tips. I think I will do as suggested and try a few methods to see what works best. One question... if I overwintered for one season to plant in the spring... do you think 1gal rb2’s would be sufficient (considering a relatively short growing season here) rather than having to step up to 3gal (trying to keep expenses reasonable)? And lastly, if overwintered, I wouldn’t have room indoors other than in a non temperature controlled barn, would they survive that?


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Thank you for the valuable tips. I think I will do as suggested and try a few methods to see what works best. One question... if I overwintered for one season to plant in the spring... do you think 1gal rb2’s would be sufficient (considering a relatively short growing season here) rather than having to step up to 3gal (trying to keep expenses reasonable)? And lastly, if overwintered, I wouldn’t have room indoors other than in a non temperature controlled barn, would they survive that?


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I'm not sure how much you gain from overwintering if you plan to plant in the spring. You won't get much root development over the winter. I would only over winter them if you plan to keep them a second season in Rootmakers and plant them in the fall. As for overwintering, I find that the smaller the container, the more you have to watch watering. They don't use a lot of water during the winter, but above ground containers can dry out. If you make sure they don't dry out during the winter and you do plan to plant in the spring, a 1 gal container would be sufficient. On the other hand, if you plan to keep them for the second season and plant in the fall as I suggest, it is better to transplant into a 3 gal RB2 when you over winter them. The additional medium surrounding the root ball acts as insulation for the root ball and the larger container requires less attention to watering in the winter.

By the end of the second growing season in your area, they should have filled a 3 gal RB2 and be ready for planting in the field with a much better chance of thriving.

I will make one caveat here. This is all coming from my personal experience and I have heavy clay soils that is not particularly fertile. Trees grow like mad in containers on my deck with lots of attention, but slow down when the get planted in the field and no attention after planting. The larger they are when I put them in the field, the more advantaged they are. Someone planting them in rich fertile soil may see less benefit from keeping them in containers for as long. Also, folks who are planting them where they live and can provide supplemental support as needed to the trees once planted in the field will likely see different results than I see.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I think I have a much better idea on the different approaches to consider.


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I can’t find anyone local that carries pro-mix hp, which seems to be the most recommended medium as far as I can tell. (They only have bx). Any suggestions?? Thought of using bx and adding more perlite to it?? Or making my own medium with 1:1:1 vermiculite, perlite and peat.


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BX will work.
 
Most Ace Hardware stores can order ProMix BX for you

Rootmaker website has recipes for propagation mixes with ingredients readily available at big box stores

bill
 
Most Ace Hardware stores can order ProMix BX for you

Rootmaker website has recipes for propagation mixes with ingredients readily available at big box stores

bill

Bill,

Unless you've found something on he Rootmaker site I missed, I think those are some general mixes for a variety of applications. I somehow lost my copy and can no longer find the on-line link, but Dr. Whitcomb had a nice paper specifically describing how he grows trees from nuts in rootmakers. That paper had a mix that was different than anything I see on the rootmaker site. He had lots of great info in there about fertilizer too.

If folks want to mix their own, I suggest looking at this tread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...s-from-seed-transferred-from-qdma-forum.5571/ Please ignore all the posts where some guy went off on the brand name "metromix" thinking it was something from a sewage treatment plant. If you ignore that, there is some good information in that thread with references to some actual testing with chestnuts. It is aimed at commercial mixes most of which are not longer being sold, but one can probably look at the ingredients and proportions and mix their own.

I'm too lazy here. Promix is a bit expensive. I use it straight in 18s because they are so small. I used to mix it 50/50 with mini-pine bark nuggets from lowes when I put trees in 1 gal and 3 gal containers. I had some trees cut and chipped in my yard, so I now use them instead.

The mix content is less important in larger containers where watering is less critical with chestnuts. The key in 18s is having the right amount of density. When one starts watering 18s, water should pour out the bottom holes very quickly. As the trees develop over time and the roots fill the voids in the mix, they become harder to top water. You have to put some water in and wait for it to absorb, add some more, and so on until it drips out the bottom holes. When they become real hard to water they need transplanted.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I have about 180 chestnuts stratifying right now with plans to start in RootMaker 18’s using grow lights and then transplant in spring to final location using tubes and weed mats (with drip irrigation).
My question is... a few have started developing radicles.. do I: 1)start just those individuals with radicles in the 18’s now and pull individually once radicles form, or, 2) wait until most have radicles and put all in 18’s at once (meaning some with radicles wont be in medium for a period of time)
My thinking is to use a 1:1:1 vermiculite, perlite, peat moss mixture as a growing medium.
Thank you for your input. (I live in Northeast PA for reference).


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180 is an impressive amount of trees to start, especially indoors. I wish you luck!

I've never had the room for a project that large, I've done half that with maybe fifty making it through to planting outside. Any more I just direct seed stratified chestnuts in mid to late March and have had satisfactory success with it.
 
I have about 180 chestnuts stratifying right now with plans to start in RootMaker 18’s using grow lights and then transplant in spring to final location using tubes and weed mats (with drip irrigation).
My question is... a few have started developing radicles.. do I: 1)start just those individuals with radicles in the 18’s now and pull individually once radicles form, or, 2) wait until most have radicles and put all in 18’s at once (meaning some with radicles wont be in medium for a period of time)
My thinking is to use a 1:1:1 vermiculite, perlite, peat moss mixture as a growing medium.
Thank you for your input. (I live in Northeast PA for reference).

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You have a fun project ahead of you. I used RM 18’s last year and figured out they are not for me. For one thing I planted the nuts that germinated as they produced a radicle and that got to be a problem as they were shading out the ones that were Smaller. (I bought the solid tray RM18, not the cells. Big mistake) . The cells would have made it way easier to care for the larger seedling and their higher demand for water, which is really why I will go back to planting in 1 gal this year.Much easier to water correctly. I used Promix until I ran out and then used Dr.Whitcomb’s recipe with Peat, Sand & Mini bark. It was ok but not near as good as ProMix. Just cheaper. I do kind of like Yoder and cull some and then take 50% if my 1 gal and plant them and the rest I put in 2 or 3 gal and over winter them and grow them another year. They are usually 3-4 ft by then. Doing an experiment on which ones do the best after transplanting.
there’s some good info on this forum so read all you can. This is only my 4th year to do it but some of these guys have been doing it a long time. Good luck.
 
Yes, the express trays are little more expensive than the regular 18s but I found them well worth it. First, the cells are made from a different type and heavier plastic and can be reused for many years. The solid 18s are made of a more brittle plastic and can crack much easier. As Cap'n points out, they allow you to reorganize trees based on height. This lets you hand fluorescent shop lights at an angle so they are only a couple inches above all of the trees regardless of size.

Thanks,

Jack
 
i looked at rootmaker.com....... knowledge center.......Q&A ....... "what kind of mixes for propagation?"

Seems similar to what most recommend for chestnuts

bill
 
Also, I have found "MetroMix" 852 to be a good product and less expensive than promix varieties

bill
 
I somehow lost my copy and can no longer find the on-line link, but Dr. Whitcomb had a nice paper specifically describing how he grows trees from nuts in rootmakers. That paper had a mix that was different than anything I see on the rootmaker site. He had lots of great info in there about fertilizer too.

Jack,

you sent me a copy of this in 2015

Sending it to you now by e mail

bill
 
I have about 180 chestnuts stratifying right now

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I did 100 chestnuts 2 years ago under grow lights in my basement, and that number was almost enough to kick my butt, they start off all nice and manageable but they get big fast (in both directions) and quickly out grew everything I kept putting them into not to mention the constant adjusting of the grow lights and trying to keep them perfectly watered. I had something like 97 out of 100 germinate and I think I potted out to the field later around 90.

A 180 is a handful. If your set up for it, it will be worth it.....if not, welcome to the madness. Good luck. I just know I will never do that many in my basement again. Once I get set up in my pole shed and can have a larger heated area with shelving racks converted to grow racks (which I did in my basement) I would consider doing it again, it was fun in the end.
 
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