Chestnut issue

[Skelly]

I have about 30 chestnuts left from starting out with about 100. A bunch had worms or failed the float test.

Of those I had almost 100% germination. Then I had a brain fart and left them outside when and they frost bite. I know, what a dumb ass.

I didn’t toss them, instead I kept them watered and babied them back to life. They are shooting up new central leaders so although some didn’t make it it’s not an all loss.I have a few that didn’t get affected and are looking great.

I do have 4 that just don’t look right and probably need to be thinned from the herd.
Should I just toss or any chance they will grow somewhat normal?


Thanks

 

[yoderjac]

Did you start these under artificial light or did you try to use a window? The very whitish or light colored stalk typically indicates a lack of light. In fact one of the grafting techniques I've tried had you start the trees in the dark on purpose to get and even whiter stock. This evidently makes the tree more willing to accept a graft. When the stalk gets about 6" you graft a tiny scion to it and move them under lights. While I have not had success with this technique, I have studied it. My lack of success may have more to do with the lack of compatibility between types of chestnuts than the technique.

If you started them early using just natural light, even the trees that look good above ground are at risk. Dr Whitcomb warn specifically against trying to get an early start on trees by growing them in a greenhouse (same effect as using a window). The intensity and low angle of the sun provides insufficient light in the winter. While the trees may look fine above ground, the root systems are very under developed. Somewhere there is a thread that shows my first hand experience with this.

Several years back, I started some pawpaws from seed indoors under lights in 18s. Another guy did the same thing but did it in a greenhouse under artificial light. Although his trees looked pretty good above ground (not quite as good as mine but pretty good), when we both tried to transplant into 1 gal RB2s, I had great rootballs and his had almost no root development. He ended up discarding most of them.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Skelly]

My wife is cool with my habitat and usually is down with just about anything. Setting up a grow room in one of the spare bedrooms just wasn’t happening. So I was able to to start them on a southern facing window and then setting them outside on 50+ temp days. We’ve had a pretty good late winter weather to allow quite a few days outside.

The four that look like that came up out the dirt at first growth that way. They were not next to each other or have any different shading.

When I let them get damaged I pulled a couple out in frustration to look at the tap root. The air pruning bags I am using are working perfect. When I looked at the tap root the tip was dry and there tons of little feeder roots sprouting all the way up the 4” tap root.

I’m limited on my set up at this stage so I’m making the best of it until I can make a grow room or wife comes around. Guess which one will happen first.

Thank you for the thoughts.

 

[yoderjac]

My wife is cool with my habitat and usually is down with just about anything. Setting up a grow room in one of the spare bedrooms just wasn’t happening. So I was able to to start them on a southern facing window and then setting them outside on 50+ temp days. We’ve had a pretty good late winter weather to allow quite a few days outside.

The four that look like that came up out the dirt at first growth that way. They were not next to each other or have any different shading.

When I let them get damaged I pulled a couple out in frustration to look at the tap root. The air pruning bags I am using are working perfect. When I looked at the tap root the tip was dry and there tons of little feeder roots sprouting all the way up the 4” tap root.

I’m limited on my set up at this stage so I’m making the best of it until I can make a grow room or wife comes around. Guess which one will happen first.

Thank you for the thoughts.

No problem. It is a good learning experience. We don't all have the same resources and objectives. The key is matching yours to methods that work. In a case like yours with an indoor grow room not available, I'd suggest simply waiting until spring and starting them outdoors. In our area April 15th is usually a reasonable time to start outdoors. The threat of freezing is only 10% at that point. You could probably get away with starting a bit earlier if you germinate indoors and watch the weather. As long is there is not top growth a light frost is not an issue. You don't want the tap root to freeze though. It takes some time for germination, so if you watch the weather and start in early April you will be fine most years.

Without a solid indoor growing setup, the longer growing season is offset by some of the issues you are experiencing. Another option is direct seeding rather than using containers. Here you don't need to worry about weather because the nuts will know when to germinate. I may lean toward that option in your case. All methods have advantages and disadvantages. Also, keep in mind that even with my extensive grow room setup and the large amount of growth I get before my trees go outdoors, once they do, there are risks. For example growth slows down dramatically at first. This is because the trees are not used to the cool nights of spring after thinking it was mid-summer in my grow room. I could keep them indoors longer until it gets warmer but that presents issues with acclimating them to the sun. Another risk is me pushing them too fast. I put them on my lower deck that only gets a few hours of direct morning sun and then they are shaded. I eventually move them to my top deck where they get much more sun. If I move them too fast, leaves that developed outdoors do fine, but I lose all the leaves that developed indoors to sun scald. This too slows growth.

If everything goes right with my timing, I can get some really great trees, but if I don't get the timing right, I can lose much of the early start I got.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Skelly]

No problem. It is a good learning experience. We don't all have the same resources and objectives. The key is matching yours to methods that work. In a case like yours with an indoor grow room not available, I'd suggest simply waiting until spring and starting them outdoors. In our area April 15th is usually a reasonable time to start outdoors. The threat of freezing is only 10% at that point. You could probably get away with starting a bit earlier if you germinate indoors and watch the weather. As long is there is not top growth a light frost is not an issue. You don't want the tap root to freeze though. It takes some time for germination, so if you watch the weather and start in early April you will be fine most years.

Without a solid indoor growing setup, the longer growing season is offset by some of the issues you are experiencing. Another option is direct seeding rather than using containers. Here you don't need to worry about weather because the nuts will know when to germinate. I may lean toward that option in your case. All methods have advantages and disadvantages. Also, keep in mind that even with my extensive grow room setup and the large amount of growth I get before my trees go outdoors, once they do, there are risks. For example growth slows down dramatically at first. This is because the trees are not used to the cool nights of spring after thinking it was mid-summer in my grow room. I could keep them indoors longer until it gets warmer but that presents issues with acclimating them to the sun. Another risk is me pushing them too fast. I put them on my lower deck that only gets a few hours of direct morning sun and then they are shaded. I eventually move them to my top deck where they get much more sun. If I move them too fast, leaves that developed outdoors do fine, but I lose all the leaves that developed indoors to sun scald. This too slows growth.

If everything goes right with my timing, I can get some really great trees, but if I don't get the timing right, I can lose much of the early start I got.

Thanks,

Jack

So what are your thoughts with the 4 that have odd color and growth rate.

I know you’ve worked with chestnuts multiple seasons.

Have you seen the issues before. Any chance they may correct themselves?

 

[yoderjac]

So what are your thoughts with the 4 that have odd color and growth rate.

I know you’ve worked with chestnuts multiple seasons.

Have you seen the issues before. Any chance they may correct themselves?

Life is virulent. They may even survive, but I doubt they will ever thrive. If you are interested in quality trees for habitat improvement, just toss them. Probably all of them. On the other hand, if you are looking for a fun learning experience, go ahead and keep them. It is surprising what some trees will do.

In nature, only a tiny percentage of the nuts produced germinate, and a tiny fraction of those that do germinate grow to maturity. Some trees are just very good growers and producers and others are not. I now start with lots more nuts than I need trees. I cull at each stage, germination, 18s to 1 gal RB2, and 1 gal RB2 to 3 gal RB2. I only plant the best growers. When I first started, I planted everything that lived. I now have a bunch of trees that are just junk and will probably amount to nothing ever. A chestnut that survives but does not produce nuts is taking up space and resources and not contributing. Over time, I'll be culling these threes from the field and replacing them.

Keep in mind that the longer you keep a tree the more expensive it is in time. It costs me very little to try to germinate nuts and throwing away those that don't germinate is pretty much free. When I've kept a tree in 18s for 12 to 16 weeks and cull it, I have a lot more time and resources invested. When I keep a tree until it has filled a 1 gal RB2 and decide to cull it, I have even more invested. If I have to cull a tree in the field, I''ve lost a lot more. It is expensive in time and materials to plant and properly protect trees.

While I started with "high volume" perspective, I've learned over time that I'm better off culling hard at each stage and planting the very best. My strategy has changed over time as I've learned! But, learning and experimenting has been some of my most fun and enjoyable time, just not the most productive for my habitat.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[chickenlittle]

One thought on culling that may or may not apply to chestnuts. For apple, i have read there is a correlation between germination and when the seedling leafs out, flowers, and the fruit ripens. Seeds that germinate later are likely to leaf out later in spring, flower later, and ripen later. I don't have a source that documents a carefully controlled study of this so maybe it is more of breeding theory. But if true and we only grow our the early germinating seeds, we may miss out on what could be useful genetics for missing late frosts and dropping mast later in the fall.

 

[Skelly]

I agree with that. I have a couple Dunstan’s in the ground my hope the drop time with these Chinese may be a little different to extend the drop time. Plan on doing some research for a later dropping chestnut for next years nut purchase.

This particular issue is what they look like. I they seem to have an issue with putting out growth. The growth is just an odd color and shape to the leaves and stem.

I’m planning on culling these 4 unless someone with experience has seen this same issues and say they will grow out of it.

 

[yoderjac]

One thought on culling that may or may not apply to chestnuts. For apple, i have read there is a correlation between germination and when the seedling leafs out, flowers, and the fruit ripens. Seeds that germinate later are likely to leaf out later in spring, flower later, and ripen later. I don't have a source that documents a carefully controlled study of this so maybe it is more of breeding theory. But if true and we only grow our the early germinating seeds, we may miss out on what could be useful genetics for missing late frosts and dropping mast later in the fall.

Yes, I don't cull based on the timing of the germination. It is funny how, with chestnuts, some trees start later but then really take off. I cull nuts that don't germinate or germinate and have issues. Some will start fine but he primary shoot will die and they will put up a second. Some have odd phenotypes and just start branching almost immediately.

After mine are ready to transplant from 18s, I do some significant culling. If a tree has not caught up by then, it probably won't.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Skelly]

So I went ahead and terminated the ones that were off colored and had bad leaves. Partly due to wanting to see the root growth with the air pruning bags I purchased. Pretty good root system started.

 

[yoderjac]

Not so much. The swollen tap root is something I've found on a lot of my culled trees. I call it "carrot root". I don't know what the actual disease is but it is some pathogen. It is not related to your containers, at least directly. It is related to water and temp. I find this condition occurs when chestnut seedling don't get the drench and dry cycle and stay wet for longer periods. I typically find it in the first stage of root pruning. The one on the right may or may not be affected by this but the others clearly are.

When I compare seedlings with this condition to their counterparts that don't have it, the difference in root development is obvious.

The first stage of root pruning when we are dealing with small containers is the toughest to get watering right. Damp conditions for too long seem to favor whatever pathogen causes this. Once I get to 1 gal containers watering becomes easier.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Skelly]

Getting pretty good growth and looking good so far.

 

[yoderjac]

Looking very good!