Changing up my planting strategy

[Wild Thing]

Sounds awesome!

I think the key to building soils - or maximizing the potential of our soils- is not solely focusing on what is planted now, but on what will follow. In an effort to maximize our soil's ability to the nutrient cycle and communicate with the soil microbial populations, increasing our bacterial to fungal networks - over time.

When I look at most foodplotters we want a heavy grain and brassica mix for hunting in the fall. Often many of these mixes use beans as their main N source in the Summer - beans are a legume but they dont fix an astronomical amount of N.

One of the reasons no-till, regen, conservation ag, whatever we want to call it - fails - is due to the inability to cycle nutrients. We must pay attention to the Carbon To Nitrogen ratios and be highly confident we have enough N in the system for the microbes to breakdown the Carbon and not too much N that our microbes mine our OM.

In conclusion- looks asweome, buddy! Just start planning the fall mix now to follow these Summer mixes and enjoy every second of it!!

You obviously have a much better handle on building soil than I do Buckhunter, but I am trying to learn as much as I can. This is one of my soil samples from last spring before I planted - which would have been after my 5th year of no-till and cover cropping. The other 5 soil samples from other food plots were very similar. The last couple of years I was reducing my fertilizer inputs as suggested by Dr Grant Woods (cut back to 75% of soil test recommendation, then 50% the next year and then 25%). I still used fertilizers in some of my plots but nothing in others. This year I will not use any synthetic fertilizers at all and hopefully - none in the future.

My OM and CEC have been slowly increasing, as have my other nutrient levels. I believe I am now good-to-go in eliminating P and K for sure, but I just don't know for sure on N. The bottom of the report shows an "Estimated N Release" of 118#/acre but it is my understanding that this is just some type of estimate. I do know that the legumes included in my cover crops will fix N from the atmosphere but I am just not sure how much N will be available the following year.

I also don't have a real good handle on C:N ratios yet...

What do you think about further inputs based upon soil tests like this particularly for a following crop such as sugar beets or brassicas which are high N users?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Buckhunter10]

You obviously have a much better handle on building soil than I do Buckhunter, but I am trying to learn as much as I can. This is one of my soil samples from last spring before I planted - which would have been after my 5th year of no-till and cover cropping. The other 5 soil samples from other food plots were very similar. The last couple of years I was reducing my fertilizer inputs as suggested by Dr Grant Woods (cut back to 75% of soil test recommendation, then 50% the next year and then 25%). I still used fertilizers in some of my plots but nothing in others. This year I will not use any synthetic fertilizers at all and hopefully - none in the future.

My OM and CEC have been slowly increasing, as have my other nutrient levels. I believe I am now good-to-go in eliminating P and K for sure, but I just don't know for sure on N. The bottom of the report shows an "Estimated N Release" of 118#/acre but it is my understanding that this is just some type of estimate. I do know that the legumes included in my cover crops will fix N from the atmosphere but I am just not sure how much N will be available the following year.

I also don't have a real good handle on C:N ratios yet...

What do you think about further inputs based upon soil tests like this particularly for a following crop such as sugar beets or brassicas which are high N users?

Thanks for your help.

View attachment 42829

So for starters, this is an awesome-looking soil test!
I am not overly familiar with sugar beets (not a lot grown in Ohio). However, it appears that you fall well within the nutrient demand for them unless you are looking for a recording-breaking yield goal.

Turnips or other brassicas are recorded at needing 60-80lbs per acre of N. Again these recommendations are assuming monoculture, bu/ac production needs. Keep in mind that yes turnips use N, but they also release N when they break down the following Spring. This is why we don't want Spring mixes to be solely legumes, or we risk N going through the N cycle and leaching out of the soil - we want to keep the N in the system.

You have a great CEC - 12.7- you will hold nutrients and you won't leach nutrients like lower soil types. Even with the highly reachable nitrate, you'll be able to be more efficient, than others (CEC x 10 nitrate holding capacity - you are at 118 per this test!).

An almost 4% OM is great as well. I am not sure how they calculate the N release, I would ask them. That might be a nitrate reading combined with an N mineralization from your OM.

Honestly, when I look at a test like this there are only a few questions I have for you.
1. Are you happy with the results in this field?
2. Do you feel the PH reading is accurate?
3. If you are looking at the next steps to start fine-tuning the system - I would start marking exact locations (GPS or stakes) as to where you are pulling soil samples each year. Pull the samples with a probe and mark the probe (I use 6 inches). Take samples at the same time each year (roughly) and repeat.

The thing we must be cognizant of with soil building and even plant to microbial bio-signaling that is occurring, is we don't understand it all yet. Even the most well-educated PHDs in the world admit to not knowing it all. We do know that as we increase our populations of fungal and bacterial populations in the soil, feed them through diverse root exudates, and keep the nutrients cycling in our system (as best we can), we can make plant uptake WAY more efficient and less stressful to said plants. Our microbes will work to solubilize nutrients previously thought unavailable.

Many articles today still only reference N uptake as ammonia or nitrate, however - there is research that shows plants can uptake microbes themselves - digest them, and create plant proteins (basic understanding of this). Some of the microbes are not consumed and are exuded back into the rhizosphere to signal additional plant needs to the microbial populations (Rhizophagey Cycle Dr. James White).

In conclusion - I wouldn't touch that field. I would be diverse in my mixes and follow good soil health principles, as I know you already are. Hope this is generally helpful.

 

[Wild Thing]

So for starters, this is an awesome-looking soil test!

You have a great CEC - 12.7- you will hold nutrients and you won't leach nutrients like lower soil types. Even with the highly reachable nitrate, you'll be able to be more efficient, than others (CEC x 10 nitrate holding capacity - you are at 118 per this test!).

An almost 4% OM is great as well. I am not sure how they calculate the N release, I would ask them. That might be a nitrate reading combined with an N mineralization from your OM.

Honestly, when I look at a test like this there are only a few questions I have for you.
1. Are you happy with the results in this field?
2. Do you feel the PH reading is accurate?
3. If you are looking at the next steps to start fine-tuning the system - I would start marking exact locations (GPS or stakes) as to where you are pulling soil samples each year. Pull the samples with a probe and mark the probe (I use 6 inches). Take samples at the same time each year (roughly) and repeat.

The thing we must be cognizant of with soil building and even plant to microbial bio-signaling that is occurring, is we don't understand it all yet. Even the most well-educated PHDs in the world admit to not knowing it all. We do know that as we increase our populations of fungal and bacterial populations in the soil, feed them through diverse root exudates, and keep the nutrients cycling in our system (as best we can), we can make plant uptake WAY more efficient and less stressful to said plants. Our microbes will work to solubilize nutrients previously thought unavailable.

Many articles today still only reference N uptake as ammonium or nitrate, however - there is research that shows plants can uptake microbes themselves - digest them, and create plant proteins (basic understanding of this). Some of the microbes are not consumed and are exuded back into the rhizosphere to signal additional plant needs to the microbial populations (Rhizophagey Cycle Dr. James White).

In conclusion - I wouldn't touch that field. I would be diverse in my mixes and follow good soil health principles, as I know you already are. Hope this is generally helpful.

Thank you for the detailed response Buckhunter. I knew that the CEC was an indicator of the soils' ability to uptake nutrients but I never knew you could calculate the nitrate holding capacity (CEC X 10). That is good to know.

1. Are you happy with the results in this field?

Yes - This particular plot was in brassicas the year before last. I do include 2# each of Crimson and Med Red Clovers in with my brassica mix when I drill them. 5-6 weeks later I broadcast rye over the brassicas so I keep my soil covered after the brassicas are gone, continue to fix N, provide fall and spring browse for my deer, etc. Last year I drilled my 12-seed cover crop into it. I am planning on terminating the cover crop in another few weeks and drilling sugar beets. In early July I will broadcast my brassicas (including the clovers) over the sugar beets and hope to broadcast some rye into them in August.

2. Do you feel the PH reading is accurate?

Absolutely. I opened up this plot (and several others) after a timber sale in 2013 and applied ag-lime a little heavier than what was recommended. All of my plots have been in the range of 6.8 - 7.5 ever since.

3. If you are looking at the next steps to start fine-tuning the system - I would start marking exact locations (GPS or stakes) as to where you are pulling soil samples each year. Pull the samples with a probe and mark the probe (I use 6 inches). Take samples at the same time each year (roughly) and repeat.

I sample 4-8 of my plots every year and I do use a soil probe marked at 6 inches. I typically collect anywhere from 10-20 cores for each plot depending upon the size of them. I do take my soil samples in the spring (usually May) every year. I have always just moved around the plots randomly to collect the samples so - probably nowhere near the same GPS coordinate from year to year. I will try to be a little more precise about that but otherwise, it sounds like we are on the same page.

Based upon your comments and what I am seeing here, I plan to go ahead and plant my usual rotation and forget about adding any fertilizer inputs....and I feel confident I will do just fine. I have been tweaking my cover crops every year and have gone up to a 12-seed mix, including plants from all 4 categories in the past couple of years. I just need to learn more about C:N ratios, exudates, and soil biology in general to come up with what will best fill my needs here.

Thank again for taking the time to help us out here.

 

[SwampCat]

Yes, this should be achievable but will be highly dependent on
1. CEC
2. Nitrate reading in soil (6inch minimum)
3. OM
4. Previous cropping

We need 60-120lbs of N to yield 50-100 bu/a of milo/grain sorghum. CEC x 10 is a rough estimate of your soil nitrate holding capacity, N credits from previous cover crops, and organic N mineralization can be factored in at 1%-2% of your OM (3% OM= 30-60lbs N per acre per annum). Another way of noting this is, Each % of OM allows 10-20lbs of N to be mineralized throughout the year.

So with that being said, in a well-managed system - can you have milo/grain sorghum produce seed, without fertilizer - yes. This is where it is so critical to understand the cycling aspect of nutrients. We cannot expect to have sunflowers and milo grown year after year, following a heavy fall grain mix -without adequate N in the system. We simply will have N tie-up and the plants to microbes will suffer.

Note the above is assuming a monoculture and bu/acre is fairly high. So we can also assume that the production of milo in a mix will have slightly fewer requirements. I also believe in a higher microbial active soil, we can assume better N uptake and cycling than the previously assumed data. Even N uptake through plants direct absorption of the microbes themselves via the Rhizophagey cycle could be considered but I don't know how quantifiable this is currently, even with tissue testing.

One additional thing to note is that as we add diversity, and reduce disturbance in our soils - we will increase bacterial and fungal populations. As we do this, our fungal networks release glomalin which is a biotic glue that helps to aggregate (hold together) the soil. This, with good cycling, can increase our soil's efficiency, water infiltration, OM, etc. To achieve this we need diversity, so even with extremely diverse mixes, not all is lost (from a soil building perspective), if we don't get full-grain production in the first year or two. If roots are growing and plants are photosynthesizing -we are doing a great thing!

Hope this helps.

I am looking for a reliable mix that would be utilized by deer and had a reliable seed source every year starting with year one, if it floods, for duck hunting. The deer are easy, the ducks complicate matters greatly

 

[Buckhunter10]

So for starters, this is an awesome-looking soil test!
I am not overly familiar with sugar beets (not a lot grown in Ohio). However, it appears that you fall well within the nutrient demand for them unless you are looking for a recording-breaking yield goal.

Turnips or other brassicas are recorded at needing 60-80lbs per acre of N. Again these recommendations are assuming monoculture, bu/ac production needs. Keep in mind that yes turnips use N, but they also release N when they break down the following Spring. This is why we don't want Spring mixes to be solely legumes, or we risk N going through the N cycle and leaching out of the soil - we want to keep the N in the system.

You have a great CEC - 12.7- you will hold nutrients and you won't leach nutrients like lower soil types. Even with the highly reachable nitrate, you'll be able to be more efficient, than others (CEC x 10 nitrate holding capacity - you are at 118 per this test!).

An almost 4% OM is great as well. I am not sure how they calculate the N release, I would ask them. That might be a nitrate reading combined with an N mineralization from your OM.

Honestly, when I look at a test like this there are only a few questions I have for you.
1. Are you happy with the results in this field?
2. Do you feel the PH reading is accurate?
3. If you are looking at the next steps to start fine-tuning the system - I would start marking exact locations (GPS or stakes) as to where you are pulling soil samples each year. Pull the samples with a probe and mark the probe (I use 6 inches). Take samples at the same time each year (roughly) and repeat.

The thing we must be cognizant of with soil building and even plant to microbial bio-signaling that is occurring, is we don't understand it all yet. Even the most well-educated PHDs in the world admit to not knowing it all. We do know that as we increase our populations of fungal and bacterial populations in the soil, feed them through diverse root exudates, and keep the nutrients cycling in our system (as best we can), we can make plant uptake WAY more efficient and less stressful to said plants. Our microbes will work to solubilize nutrients previously thought unavailable.

Many articles today still only reference N uptake as ammonium or nitrate, however - there is research that shows plants can uptake microbes themselves - digest them, and create plant proteins (basic understanding of this). Some of the microbes are not consumed and are exuded back into the rhizosphere to signal additional plant needs to the microbial populations (Rhizophagey Cycle Dr. James White).

In conclusion - I wouldn't touch that field. I would be diverse in my mixes and follow good soil health principles, as I know you already are. Hope this is generally helpful.

Great - let that PH settle now for a bit, as we increase our PH we can start to reduce our plant's ability to take up micros. To try to keep it simple - I like to do the following
1. Manage Base Sat %
2. PH - where are we
3. figure a plant/planting technique for your soil types to help increase biology and productivity in the soil

PS: @Wild Thing that soil is beautiful!! Keep up the awesome work!

Thank you all for allowing me to chime in and share some information. I really enjoy it.

Albert

 

[yoderjac]

Do you folks see much milo seed production in unfertilized seed mixes?

When I use it, I get great seed heads every year with zero fertilizer.

 

[Foggy47]

I used to plant spring oats and mammoth red clover into my played out brassica plots. By spring those plots would be bare dirt. A few years ago I started including some clovers in with my brassica mix which I drill in early July here and then I broadcast winter rye into the brassicas in August. I no longer have bare dirt in the spring - I have nice clovers and young rye to feed my deer in spring as well as keeping my soil covered....producing Nitrogen and other nutrients to feed my following crop.

Here is what that looks like - this is the brassica plots on August 21st when I broadcasted rye into the brassicas. The clovers had been included in the brassica mix when I drilled it around July 8th.

August 21st - You can't even tell that there are any clovers in these plots in August, but they are getting their roots established and will flourish in the spring...

View attachment 42810

I "spot" pails of rye seed around the plots to minimize my backtracking to fill my broadcast spreader when adding the rye component...once again - this is on August 21st.

View attachment 42811

The following June 16th - the brassicas are long gone but the clovers and rye have been feeding my deer since the snow melted. The clovers and rye are also keeping my soil covered and feeding nutrients to my soil and fixing atmospheric Nitrogen into the root nodules of the legumes.

View attachment 42812

June 16th...

View attachment 42813

While the rye is beyond being palatable by this time, the clovers are being heavily browsed by lactating does and antler growing bucks.

View attachment 42814

This is my brassica recipe with the clovers included...2# each of Crimson and Medium Red Clovers per acre.

View attachment 42815

I REALLY liked this post as it is so informative for me right now. Thanks Wild Thing. I like the worksheets you show here. While my new drill is not the same as yours I will be doing much the same as you this summer. I am picking up my new Great Plains 3P500 next week......so I am looking for all the mixes and settings I can find......like that shown above. I've been making similar "work sheets" lately....in order to prepare for the next year. Have you posted more of these "settings" on your drill? (I am considering starting a GP / LP settings thread to consolidate some of this sort of thing.)

 

[omicron1792]

Do you folks see much milo seed production in unfertilized seed mixes?

I see a ton.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

I used to plant spring oats and mammoth red clover into my played out brassica plots. By spring those plots would be bare dirt. A few years ago I started including some clovers in with my brassica mix which I drill in early July here and then I broadcast winter rye into the brassicas in August. I no longer have bare dirt in the spring - I have nice clovers and young rye to feed my deer in spring as well as keeping my soil covered....producing Nitrogen and other nutrients to feed my following crop.

Here is what that looks like - this is the brassica plots on August 21st when I broadcasted rye into the brassicas. The clovers had been included in the brassica mix when I drilled it around July 8th.

August 21st - You can't even tell that there are any clovers in these plots in August, but they are getting their roots established and will flourish in the spring...

View attachment 42810

I "spot" pails of rye seed around the plots to minimize my backtracking to fill my broadcast spreader when adding the rye component...once again - this is on August 21st.

View attachment 42811

The following June 16th - the brassicas are long gone but the clovers and rye have been feeding my deer since the snow melted. The clovers and rye are also keeping my soil covered and feeding nutrients to my soil and fixing atmospheric Nitrogen into the root nodules of the legumes.

View attachment 42812

June 16th...

View attachment 42813

While the rye is beyond being palatable by this time, the clovers are being heavily browsed by lactating does and antler growing bucks.

View attachment 42814

This is my brassica recipe with the clovers included...2# each of Crimson and Medium Red Clovers per acre.

View attachment 42815

Wild thing this is what I’m going to do (drill brassicas and clovers with my Kasco E-Drill) in late July (northern ny). I thought about another 1/2 of plot with clover and rye drilled in 1st week of sep/last week of aug.

Do you think it’s better to do the whole plot in brassicas and clover late July then broadcast rye in September or split them up 1/2 and 1/2? (Half brassicas + clovers and the other half rye + clovers).

 

[SwampCat]

I see a ton.

Would like to plant a seed mix for doves and then ducks later on if it floods. The seed mixes I have planted with milo make almost no seed.

 

[omicron1792]

Would like to plant a seed mix for doves and then ducks later on if it floods. The seed mixes I have planted with milo make almost no seed.

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I started using these. Now I mix my own.

Pearl, browntop, Japanese millet. Sorghum. Sorghum Sudan. Sunflowers. Buckwheat. Sun hemp

Keys for seed head production.

Have to plant small poundage of milo/millet. 5lbs total of milo, 5lbs total of millet. 2-3 sunflower. 5 of sun hemp. 10 of buckwheat.

If you crowd the millet/milo they won’t head out. Also they love N. So either plant into great fall/spring legume crop or give some N about 6 weeks into growth.

I use same for ducks, but add some aeschynomene.

I usually add some cowpeas too.

It’s ok if other plants, especially legumes fill in the gaps. But if sorghum and Milo plants are too close together they form no heads.

 

[omicron1792]

Would like to plant a seed mix for doves and then ducks later on if it floods. The seed mixes I have planted with milo make almost no seed.

 

[SwampCat]

Food Plot CRP Seed Mixes for Sale | Pheasants Forever

See the Pheasants Forever selection of 2024 Food Plot CRP Seed Mixes for Sale. Quality CRP and Other Habitat Seed designed for Wildlife.

www.pfhabitatstore.com

I started using these. Now I mix my own.

Pearl, browntop, Japanese millet. Sorghum. Sorghum Sudan. Sunflowers. Buckwheat. Sun hemp

Keys for seed head production.

Have to plant small poundage of milo/millet. 5lbs total of milo, 5lbs total of millet. 2-3 sunflower. 5 of sun hemp. 10 of buckwheat.

If you crowd the millet/milo they won’t head out. Also they love N. So either plant into great fall/spring legume crop or give some N about 6 weeks into growth.

I use same for ducks, but add some aeschynomene.

I usually add some cowpeas too.

It’s ok if other plants, especially legumes fill in the gaps. But if sorghum and Milo plants are too close together they form no heads.

Thanks. Cant plant anything deer will eat because they will wipe it out before six inches tall. Millets and milo will work if I can get milo to head out. Thanks

 

[omicron1792]

Thanks. Cant plant anything deer will eat because they will wipe it out before six inches tall. Millets and milo will work if I can get milo to head out. Thanks

Browntop millet is easiest to grow and seems to be least liked by deer.

It is possible that yours is heading out, and deer are nipping off the heads. May try an exclusion cage to see.

 

[Foggy47]

View attachment 49687View attachment 49688View attachment 49689

So.....JT.....what did you plant the above mix "into". i.e. Did you till this ground before planting these things shown above?.....or did you nuke it?? ......or plant green into clover??? And....what is that mix comprised of???? I want to plant some 5' wide strips like you show above here....adjacent to my clover on one side and brassica on the other side. I need some vertical cover in some of my wider plots......and this looks like it would do the trick.....VERY NICELY.

Come spring....I will have clover and rye in the plots I want to drill a mix such as you show here.....and I'm not certain how much prep to do to that area after I roll the rye. What I see here is beautiful cover.

 

[omicron1792]

So.....JT.....what did you plant the above mix "into". i.e. Did you till this ground before planting these things shown above?.....or did you nuke it?? ......or plant green into clover??? And....what is that mix comprised of???? I want to plant some 5' wide strips like you show above here....adjacent to my clover on one side and brassica on the other side. I need some vertical cover in some of my wider plots......and this looks like it would do the trick.....VERY NICELY.

Come spring....I will have clover and rye in the plots I want to drill a mix such as you show here.....and I'm not certain how much prep to do to that area after I roll the rye. What I see here is beautiful cover.

Different things, but all were planted into thick previous crops. I didn’t have crimper then so I sprayed or Mowed.

I had drill for all those plantings. Night and day difference in germination and outcomes.


It would def do the trick. In some areas I mowed it then planted fall crops. In some I left standing and drilled fall crop with no termination. Those areas did best.

 

[omicron1792]

So.....JT.....what did you plant the above mix "into". i.e. Did you till this ground before planting these things shown above?.....or did you nuke it?? ......or plant green into clover??? And....what is that mix comprised of???? I want to plant some 5' wide strips like you show above here....adjacent to my clover on one side and brassica on the other side. I need some vertical cover in some of my wider plots......and this looks like it would do the trick.....VERY NICELY.

Come spring....I will have clover and rye in the plots I want to drill a mix such as you show here.....and I'm not certain how much prep to do to that area after I roll the rye. What I see here is beautiful cover.

Here I planted into my summer crop with drill and didn’t terminate. It did great. Kept some vertical cover Most of winter.

 

[omicron1792]

So.....JT.....what did you plant the above mix "into". i.e. Did you till this ground before planting these things shown above?.....or did you nuke it?? ......or plant green into clover??? And....what is that mix comprised of???? I want to plant some 5' wide strips like you show above here....adjacent to my clover on one side and brassica on the other side. I need some vertical cover in some of my wider plots......and this looks like it would do the trick.....VERY NICELY.

Come spring....I will have clover and rye in the plots I want to drill a mix such as you show here.....and I'm not certain how much prep to do to that area after I roll the rye. What I see here is beautiful cover.

Foggy. That post above with my three pics, the top one with front of tractor visible. That is same field I just posted pic of now, that was me drilling into standing summer crop.

 

[SwampCat]

It is possible that yours is heading out, and deer are nipping off the heads. May try an exclusion cage to see.

They typically produce a head with flowers - just not much seed

 

[Foggy47]

Foggy. That post above with my three pics, the top one with front of tractor visible. That is same field I just posted pic of now, that was me drilling into standing summer crop.

Wow. Says allot about your ground and technique. I've had issues with my clover out competeing my "summer release" to some extent......but especially my brassica efforts.

This year I intend to plant some 5' wide strips into my clover/rye from last falls planting. Planning to leave a clover perimeter around the plot......then nuke the areas I want to plant with a tall mix and an adjacent brassica mix.

I'm really considering to nuke the standing clover / rye in late June, with a mix of 2-4d and roundup, then 10 days later plant "brown" into that dead crop prior to crimping it. Same goes for my brassica. I may try just rolling a few areas just to compare and find out what works for me and my ground. (dunno yet)

Just this afternoon I put these mixes and plans on paper to give this some more thought.....but basically below are the process' I am considering for my larger plots. All are subject to change....grin.