Buck Shaming

[yoderjac]

Interesting is the variation across the country. We get 3 either sex tags but only 2 of them are good in the lower deer density mountains on the western part of the state. We also get 3 antlerless tags with our license. You can buy an unlimited number of additional doe tags but they are only valid on private land. The state figures that any land owner will not want to shoot himself in the foot hunting decimating populations on their own land. There may be a few orchards and vineyards that try to decimate their local populations but that is about it. Our seasons run from Early Oct through early Jan except in some urban areas where archery is permitted almost year-round. We start with archery, then muzzleloader, and finally general firearms seasons for deer.

Archery season and Muzzleloader seasons are eithirsex all season. The length of firearm season varies by region based on the objectives for that area (increase, decrease, or stabilize). Firearm season is also antlered only except for designated doe days. So during firearms season, you generally need a doe tag and it much be a designated doe day. The number of designated doe days varies by region and changing that number is the primary means for regulating population.

Our state has some great programs for private property owners. The program we use is their Deer Management Program. We collect metrics and biological samples from every deer harvested and proved them to the state for their management database. In return, a state biologist responsible for our property issues additional free doe tags that are good during any deer season irrespective of doe days. This gives us a lot of flexibility in harvest. The biologist also issues reports and recommendations for us each year regarding harvest. They are only recommendations and we are not required to follow them. I'd say in 95% of the cases we concur.

Deer harvests (proxy for population) climbed pretty rapidly until the mid 1990's. It has been fairly flat since then with minor ups and downs. Most of the oscillations since then seem to be related to a variety of natural factors like mast crop failures and EHD outbreaks. The state population is certainly not uniform.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Baker]

I have no idea what buck shaming is and didn't read enough posts to learn. Glancing quickly thru this thread though I see some discussion on management and buck harvest. It is refreshing to see where most have moved past the concept of removing 'inferior bucks' to improve the herd genetics. That said bucks will get removed every year and the open question always is which one to take.

That question invariably starts with some discussion or concept of herd management. I propose , as referred to earlier , that most landowners should forget herd management and focus on habitat management. Bluntly few own or control enough acreage to effectively manage a herd of deer. Thus most are better off doing all they can to optimize their habitat and shoot whatever animals appeal to their wishes. Irrespective of harvest strategies, nutrition raises the bar for all age classes and can be impactful even on smaller properties.

One thing I rarely see when consideration is given to which buck to remove is natural mortality. Every year, bucks kill each other. As we look at harvest on our properties, which are managed to grow the highest quality bucks possible with a scale and circumstance to accomplish that, we do all we can to protect the most promising bucks to the oldest age classes. Once a buck gets to be 4 or older we start removing from the bottom of the quality scale, leaving those with the most potential. Couple reasons. Hunters want to shoot bucks. By 4 and older you can generally tell which bucks have the most potential and which fit the more average part of the bell curve.. And lastly , I have seen countless times where the crappy 8 pt kills the super star up and comer. Does this strategy stop natural mortality? No. But I feel better about it.

Lastly and just to pontificate. There are almost no herds in north America that reflect what a ' natural ' deer herd would look like...B/D ratios, age structure { How many herds have the majority of the bucks 5 years old or older? } social dynamics, relationship to habitat, stress response, etc. To replicate that is practically impossible for most. Thus it may be more practical to do what can be done with the habitat, and stress less about herd harvest within ones control.

 

[yoderjac]

I have no idea what buck shaming is and didn't read enough posts to learn. Glancing quickly thru this thread though I see some discussion on management and buck harvest. It is refreshing to see where most have moved past the concept of removing 'inferior bucks' to improve the herd genetics. That said bucks will get removed every year and the open question always is which one to take.

That question invariably starts with some discussion or concept of herd management. I propose , as referred to earlier , that most landowners should forget herd management and focus on habitat management. Bluntly few own or control enough acreage to effectively manage a herd of deer. Thus most are better off doing all they can to optimize their habitat and shoot whatever animals appeal to their wishes. Irrespective of harvest strategies, nutrition raises the bar for all age classes and can be impactful even on smaller properties.

One thing I rarely see when consideration is given to which buck to remove is natural mortality. Every year, bucks kill each other. As we look at harvest on our properties, which are managed to grow the highest quality bucks possible with a scale and circumstance to accomplish that, we do all we can to protect the most promising bucks to the oldest age classes. Once a buck gets to be 4 or older we start removing from the bottom of the quality scale, leaving those with the most potential. Couple reasons. Hunters want to shoot bucks. By 4 and older you can generally tell which bucks have the most potential and which fit the more average part of the bell curve.. And lastly , I have seen countless times where the crappy 8 pt kills the super star up and comer. Does this strategy stop natural mortality? No. But I feel better about it.

Lastly and just to pontificate. There are almost no herds in north America that reflect what a ' natural ' deer herd would look like...B/D ratios, age structure { How many herds have the majority of the bucks 5 years old or older? } social dynamics, relationship to habitat, stress response, etc. To replicate that is practically impossible for most. Thus it may be more practical to do what can be done with the habitat, and stress less about herd harvest within ones control.

I tend to agree. While there is some obvious logic to culling deer in that age class that you feel are "inferior", I can't find any science to back this up. Second, that seems to be where I draw the line between QDM and trophy management. Just to be clear for folks, I would define QDM as managing to maximize the health of the local deer herd. I would define trophy management as managing for trophy class bucks. You need to do QDM to be successful at TM, but you don't need to do TM to be successful at QDM.

My old boss had an expression I liked, "Polishing a Turd". In science, one might view it as reporting precision that exceeds statistical significance. My personal opinion is that the strategy you describe for selective buck harvest does no harm at all, but I can find no scientific basis to say it has the intended impact. I'm certainly not opposed to it. Whether effective or not, I see the intent as Trophy Management. I'm also not saying there is anything wrong with trophy management, it is just not my objective.

I also tend to agree that deer herds are quite plastic. The idea of "natural" is very squishy. I'm looking to manage in a way that my herd numbers stay in relative balance with the habitat and to increase the BCC in such a way that if I stop, they revert to a lower BCC slowly enough that deer populations can adapt over time rather than crash. I'm looking to have healthy individuals in my herd. My recruitment goals include hunters as well as deer. I want to balance recreational opportunities as well.

I learned a hard lesson in that respect. While some of the owners of our property were very knowledgeable and onboard with QDM, I think others liked the sound of things, but did not have a full understanding as to what all was involved and how many year of commitment and resources it would take. They tended to be overoptimistic as pushed by the industry. One became a great friend. He was older and in poor health. He had both knees replaced and did not get around well. I built box blinds with his access in mind. He was retired and an avid, but not effective hunter. I could hear the frustration in his voice as he would have young racked deer in range. I told him to shoot whatever makes him happy. He is an owner and should be able to enjoy the place. However, because of our harvest guidelines (not hard requirements), he still felt obligated to let those deer walk. His odds of ever harvesting a great buck were small. Unfortunately, he passed on without harvesting a good buck, not because he didn't want to, but because he did not want to let the other owners down.

I agree, that once you let enough bucks survive to maturity and harvest enough does to keep the population in balance, the habitat end of the equation is where we can do the most good.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Telemark]

Isn't culling for the purpose of removing specific deer a legitimate practice?

 

[yoderjac]

Isn't culling for the purpose of removing specific deer a legitimate practice?

As far as removing specific bucks for the purpose of improving genetics in free ranging deer, no. Listen to the pod cast link.

As far as removing specific bucks for population control, no. Removing bucks has little impact on population and only the number removed impacts habitat in rare critical situations.

As for as removing specific bucks that are old but have lesser rack so they don't chase out younger bucks with more potential, we don't know. No good science on this one that I've seen. Reasonable theory. In my opinion, there are too many other complex factors for it to have a statistically significant impact (but that is just opinion). In any case, in my opinion it is a Trophy Management practice, not a QDM practice.

As for removing specific classes of anterless deer, yes it is a legitimate practice.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Troubles Trees]

I would consider myself an "average Joe" in my area and hunting community, although I have never had them officially scored I am told that I have shot a few good bucks in my life, but nothing over 125" and of those, the average age of those bucks is 2-3 years old. I'm a single dad that works 9-5, I own a house on 30 acres and I have planted over 1,000 trees shrubs and berry bushes on that 30 acres for the purpose of feeding my food (wildlife) and to create a grocery store in my backyard (in case I fall on hard times). I started out with teaching myself how to hunt with no mentor, just a hunting friend that was as green as I was to bing questions off of or get guidance from so in the beginning it was brown its down and fill the freezer. Today I have to do my rounds every year to keep/get permission to hunt other peoples land and do a few chores for each place, or offer them some meat for that permission. Most of these spots are around 8-10 acres, only 1 is 60 acres but has 2 other guys hunting it also, and they are brown it's down/meat hunters mentality. As my friend and I matured we started "giving them another year" and almost immediately started harvesting 2 and 3 year olds and bigger racked bucks. But we attribute much of that to simply not tagging out the first few weeks of that season (definitely tagged out before the best part, the rut) and at the same time stinking up bedding and sanctuary areas tracking and dragging the 1 year old crotch horns, and we all know mature bucks won't tolerate that for long. In my area after the first couple days of gun season I swear bigger bucks have a secret cave they go to during the day because even seeing medium 6-8 point bucks become a challenge until the end of season when everyone has tagged out or won't hunt coldest part of the season.

I get 2 buck tags per year, I could have spent my lifetime trying to cull bucks at 2 per year, or ate my tags because I waited for a 4 year old with inferior genetics (or a bruiser) and never made a difference in the overall herd that I would benefit from, or personally seen the benefit of doing it because very few in my area "give them another year". In my 30 years of hunting deer, I have shot 2 or 3 bucks that were 4.5 years old, if I was hunting solely for age and inches my whole life, I would have only shot 2 or 3 bucks total. Some of my fondest hunts/bucks were not the biggest at all.

My point is, QDM only works on much larger scales like if my whole county or State does it and it is enforced. Sure someone in Ohio or Illinois could criticize me for the young deer with alot of potential that I have harvested but from where they are standing, a 3.5 year old buck is an average deer and commonly seen, for me it's more like 1 or 2 bucks per season, and just because I see them doesn't mean I get a chance to harvest them. A good example is last year, I harvested just 1 doe and ate my other 3 tags, I am at peace with that because I hunted how I wanted to, I didn't take a bad/hurried shot at one of the big ones I saw, and I passed on lots of smaller bucks I easily could have taken. The only part that sucked is after I doled out my bounty with the land owners I didn't have much meat for myself or my family.

I am all for real QDM, I do wish others would join that mentality but since they don't QDM won't work for people in my area until it is mandated and enforced in my area. I have been buck shamed many times in my life, one was a 10 point that my taxidermist said the teeth reveled it was only 2.5 years old. I will see if I can find a picture to add here so you get a visual of why I harvested it and also why I don't care what the shamer's say, I would have never passed up that buck.
Just my 2 cents :)
This 10 point came in right under my stand (you can barely see the entrance hole at the top of his back, it was a perfect shot as you can see coughing up blood and only went 40 yards after the shot) chasing a doe during the rut, a buck I have never seen on trail cam or in person. His rack looks huge in the picture in part because the body is so small, he only has 17 1/2' inside spread which puts him just inside his ears. I can only take my taxidermist's word for it being a 2.5 year old.

 

[yoderjac]

I
My point is, QDM only works on much larger scales like if my whole county or State does it and it is enforced.

While I agree with much of what you said, I think the above might be a bit strong. In general, you need sufficient scale so that the herd you are managing spends 90% of its time on your ground. When you look at the home range of bucks, it varies with habitat, but 1,000 acres might be a good proxy or an average. You don't have to own the full thousand acres, but you need some level of cooperation from that much. We own 378 acres. We have some level of cooperation (wittingly or not) from some adjoining lands. The total comes out to be about 800 acres. We have been trying to practice QDM for over 10 years now. The game department biologist that we turn all of our data in to says he sees an improvement in the herd as measured by body weight. Personally, I'm not yet convinced this improvement is statistically significant.

I think QDM can be done on less than the county level, but it does require sufficient scale. Exactly how much depends on a lot of factors, but certainly less than the size of a county.

As for your harvest, don't feel bad at all. Personally I don't think it makes any sense (especially is as few acres as we own) to set harvest standards based on some kind of rack score. The underlying dirt is a limiting factor and some places will never produce record book bucks. I like to think of targeting the top 10% of bucks. I buck in my top 10% might not be in the top 30% of some other area. If you wait for a record book class buck, in some areas you would never shoot a buck.

So, in our case, we have determined that targeting bucks that are 3 1/2 and older is the best way for us. Antler size is an important indicator of age, but only one indicator. Judging under field conditions is not always easy. We have probably shot more large racked 2 1/2 year old bucks than 3 1/2 year old bucks. Not on purpose, but simply by accident using our best estimate of the buck given the conditions. We don't have any issues with someone making an honest mistake or mis-estimate. We have had a guest or two shot a basket rack 1 1/2 year old 10 point, and we made our displeasure known, but it is easy to mistake a big 2 1/2 year old for a 3 1/2 year old on our place.

Congrats on the harvest!

Jack

 

[Bill]

I would consider myself an "average Joe" in my area and hunting community, although I have never had them officially scored I am told that I have shot a few good bucks in my life, but nothing over 125" and of those, the average age of those bucks is 2-3 years old. I'm a single dad that works 9-5, I own a house on 30 acres and I have planted over 1,000 trees shrubs and berry bushes on that 30 acres for the purpose of feeding my food (wildlife) and to create a grocery store in my backyard (in case I fall on hard times). I started out with teaching myself how to hunt with no mentor, just a hunting friend that was as green as I was to bing questions off of or get guidance from so in the beginning it was brown its down and fill the freezer. Today I have to do my rounds every year to keep/get permission to hunt other peoples land and do a few chores for each place, or offer them some meat for that permission. Most of these spots are around 8-10 acres, only 1 is 60 acres but has 2 other guys hunting it also, and they are brown it's down/meat hunters mentality. As my friend and I matured we started "giving them another year" and almost immediately started harvesting 2 and 3 year olds and bigger racked bucks. But we attribute much of that to simply not tagging out the first few weeks of that season (definitely tagged out before the best part, the rut) and at the same time stinking up bedding and sanctuary areas tracking and dragging the 1 year old crotch horns, and we all know mature bucks won't tolerate that for long. In my area after the first couple days of gun season I swear bigger bucks have a secret cave they go to during the day because even seeing medium 6-8 point bucks become a challenge until the end of season when everyone has tagged out or won't hunt coldest part of the season.

I get 2 buck tags per year, I could have spent my lifetime trying to cull bucks at 2 per year, or ate my tags because I waited for a 4 year old with inferior genetics (or a bruiser) and never made a difference in the overall herd that I would benefit from, or personally seen the benefit of doing it because very few in my area "give them another year". In my 30 years of hunting deer, I have shot 2 or 3 bucks that were 4.5 years old, if I was hunting solely for age and inches my whole life, I would have only shot 2 or 3 bucks total. Some of my fondest hunts/bucks were not the biggest at all.

My point is, QDM only works on much larger scales like if my whole county or State does it and it is enforced. Sure someone in Ohio or Illinois could criticize me for the young deer with alot of potential that I have harvested but from where they are standing, a 3.5 year old buck is an average deer and commonly seen, for me it's more like 1 or 2 bucks per season, and just because I see them doesn't mean I get a chance to harvest them. A good example is last year, I harvested just 1 doe and ate my other 3 tags, I am at peace with that because I hunted how I wanted to, I didn't take a bad/hurried shot at one of the big ones I saw, and I passed on lots of smaller bucks I easily could have taken. The only part that sucked is after I doled out my bounty with the land owners I didn't have much meat for myself or my family.

I am all for real QDM, I do wish others would join that mentality but since they don't QDM won't work for people in my area until it is mandated and enforced in my area. I have been buck shamed many times in my life, one was a 10 point that my taxidermist said the teeth reveled it was only 2.5 years old. I will see if I can find a picture to add here so you get a visual of why I harvested it and also why I don't care what the shamer's say, I would have never passed up that buck.
Just my 2 cents :)
This 10 point came in right under my stand (you can barely see the entrance hole at the top of his back, it was a perfect shot as you can see coughing up blood and only went 40 yards after the shot) chasing a doe during the rut, a buck I have never seen on trail cam or in person. His rack looks huge in the picture in part because the body is so small, he only has 17 1/2' inside spread which puts him just inside his ears. I can only take my taxidermist's word for it being a 2.5 year old.


View attachment 30867

I think you’d be nuts not to shoot that deer in NY where you are.

 

[Tree Spud]

I would consider myself an "average Joe" in my area and hunting community, although I have never had them officially scored I am told that I have shot a few good bucks in my life, but nothing over 125" and of those, the average age of those bucks is 2-3 years old. I'm a single dad that works 9-5, I own a house on 30 acres and I have planted over 1,000 trees shrubs and berry bushes on that 30 acres for the purpose of feeding my food (wildlife) and to create a grocery store in my backyard (in case I fall on hard times). I started out with teaching myself how to hunt with no mentor, just a hunting friend that was as green as I was to bing questions off of or get guidance from so in the beginning it was brown its down and fill the freezer. Today I have to do my rounds every year to keep/get permission to hunt other peoples land and do a few chores for each place, or offer them some meat for that permission. Most of these spots are around 8-10 acres, only 1 is 60 acres but has 2 other guys hunting it also, and they are brown it's down/meat hunters mentality. As my friend and I matured we started "giving them another year" and almost immediately started harvesting 2 and 3 year olds and bigger racked bucks. But we attribute much of that to simply not tagging out the first few weeks of that season (definitely tagged out before the best part, the rut) and at the same time stinking up bedding and sanctuary areas tracking and dragging the 1 year old crotch horns, and we all know mature bucks won't tolerate that for long. In my area after the first couple days of gun season I swear bigger bucks have a secret cave they go to during the day because even seeing medium 6-8 point bucks become a challenge until the end of season when everyone has tagged out or won't hunt coldest part of the season.

I get 2 buck tags per year, I could have spent my lifetime trying to cull bucks at 2 per year, or ate my tags because I waited for a 4 year old with inferior genetics (or a bruiser) and never made a difference in the overall herd that I would benefit from, or personally seen the benefit of doing it because very few in my area "give them another year". In my 30 years of hunting deer, I have shot 2 or 3 bucks that were 4.5 years old, if I was hunting solely for age and inches my whole life, I would have only shot 2 or 3 bucks total. Some of my fondest hunts/bucks were not the biggest at all.

My point is, QDM only works on much larger scales like if my whole county or State does it and it is enforced. Sure someone in Ohio or Illinois could criticize me for the young deer with alot of potential that I have harvested but from where they are standing, a 3.5 year old buck is an average deer and commonly seen, for me it's more like 1 or 2 bucks per season, and just because I see them doesn't mean I get a chance to harvest them. A good example is last year, I harvested just 1 doe and ate my other 3 tags, I am at peace with that because I hunted how I wanted to, I didn't take a bad/hurried shot at one of the big ones I saw, and I passed on lots of smaller bucks I easily could have taken. The only part that sucked is after I doled out my bounty with the land owners I didn't have much meat for myself or my family.

I am all for real QDM, I do wish others would join that mentality but since they don't QDM won't work for people in my area until it is mandated and enforced in my area. I have been buck shamed many times in my life, one was a 10 point that my taxidermist said the teeth reveled it was only 2.5 years old. I will see if I can find a picture to add here so you get a visual of why I harvested it and also why I don't care what the shamer's say, I would have never passed up that buck.
Just my 2 cents :)
This 10 point came in right under my stand (you can barely see the entrance hole at the top of his back, it was a perfect shot as you can see coughing up blood and only went 40 yards after the shot) chasing a doe during the rut, a buck I have never seen on trail cam or in person. His rack looks huge in the picture in part because the body is so small, he only has 17 1/2' inside spread which puts him just inside his ears. I can only take my taxidermist's word for it being a 2.5 year old.


View attachment 30867

TT ... stop explaning yourself. You shot a nice buck. Not everyday day, not every season ... presents the same opportunity. Great Buck!

 

[Telemark]

I would consider myself an "average Joe" in my area and hunting community, although I have never had them officially scored I am told that I have shot a few good bucks in my life, but nothing over 125" and of those, the average age of those bucks is 2-3 years old. I'm a single dad that works 9-5, I own a house on 30 acres and I have planted over 1,000 trees shrubs and berry bushes on that 30 acres for the purpose of feeding my food (wildlife) and to create a grocery store in my backyard (in case I fall on hard times). I started out with teaching myself how to hunt with no mentor, just a hunting friend that was as green as I was to bing questions off of or get guidance from so in the beginning it was brown its down and fill the freezer. Today I have to do my rounds every year to keep/get permission to hunt other peoples land and do a few chores for each place, or offer them some meat for that permission. Most of these spots are around 8-10 acres, only 1 is 60 acres but has 2 other guys hunting it also, and they are brown it's down/meat hunters mentality. As my friend and I matured we started "giving them another year" and almost immediately started harvesting 2 and 3 year olds and bigger racked bucks. But we attribute much of that to simply not tagging out the first few weeks of that season (definitely tagged out before the best part, the rut) and at the same time stinking up bedding and sanctuary areas tracking and dragging the 1 year old crotch horns, and we all know mature bucks won't tolerate that for long. In my area after the first couple days of gun season I swear bigger bucks have a secret cave they go to during the day because even seeing medium 6-8 point bucks become a challenge until the end of season when everyone has tagged out or won't hunt coldest part of the season.

I get 2 buck tags per year, I could have spent my lifetime trying to cull bucks at 2 per year, or ate my tags because I waited for a 4 year old with inferior genetics (or a bruiser) and never made a difference in the overall herd that I would benefit from, or personally seen the benefit of doing it because very few in my area "give them another year". In my 30 years of hunting deer, I have shot 2 or 3 bucks that were 4.5 years old, if I was hunting solely for age and inches my whole life, I would have only shot 2 or 3 bucks total. Some of my fondest hunts/bucks were not the biggest at all.

My point is, QDM only works on much larger scales like if my whole county or State does it and it is enforced. Sure someone in Ohio or Illinois could criticize me for the young deer with alot of potential that I have harvested but from where they are standing, a 3.5 year old buck is an average deer and commonly seen, for me it's more like 1 or 2 bucks per season, and just because I see them doesn't mean I get a chance to harvest them. A good example is last year, I harvested just 1 doe and ate my other 3 tags, I am at peace with that because I hunted how I wanted to, I didn't take a bad/hurried shot at one of the big ones I saw, and I passed on lots of smaller bucks I easily could have taken. The only part that sucked is after I doled out my bounty with the land owners I didn't have much meat for myself or my family.

I am all for real QDM, I do wish others would join that mentality but since they don't QDM won't work for people in my area until it is mandated and enforced in my area. I have been buck shamed many times in my life, one was a 10 point that my taxidermist said the teeth reveled it was only 2.5 years old. I will see if I can find a picture to add here so you get a visual of why I harvested it and also why I don't care what the shamer's say, I would have never passed up that buck.
Just my 2 cents :)
This 10 point came in right under my stand (you can barely see the entrance hole at the top of his back, it was a perfect shot as you can see coughing up blood and only went 40 yards after the shot) chasing a doe during the rut, a buck I have never seen on trail cam or in person. His rack looks huge in the picture in part because the body is so small, he only has 17 1/2' inside spread which puts him just inside his ears. I can only take my taxidermist's word for it being a 2.5 year old.


View attachment 30867

That's a great deer. Period.

If you have several different properties to hunt, have to considered using them differently? For example, use some of them for chasing mature bucks, and some for meat harvest? Seems like you want to fill your freezer and go after trophies, all while sharing everything with other people. If, for example, one of the properties has a lot of does and small bucks, but little to no mature bucks, why not go ahead and shoot some meat deer there? That could help to take some of the pressure off when you are hunting trophies on the properties that hold trophies.

 

[Troubles Trees]

The NY DEC (dept of environmental conservation) heavily culls doe in this area to the tune of 2 doe per day from October 1st Bow opener, all the way till just before Christmas when muzzleloader season ends, and also open again for a 2 or 3 weeks in January, after a short break for Christmas. Anyone that has a valid NYS hunting license anywhere in NYState that applies for the DMFA can print their tags at home from their computer, and are legally allowed to take 2 doe per day EVERYDAY of that time timeframe. It’s early am so my math might be off but it’s close to 95 days long times 2 doe per person per day. If 1 person used every tag they give them in the DMFA they can legally shoot roughly 190 doe in 1 hunting season, that’s just 1 person lol there isn’t much meat to hunt but I will say the benefits of the lack of doe makes for one awesome rut!
The property’s I have permission to hunt are on the west edge of this 60,000 acre doe kill off zone. The reason the DEC created this kill zone is because the rich folks in Cayuga Heights were tired of the deer eating their fancy landscaping flowers and shrubs. The actual “problem area” of Cayuga Heights isn’t huntable, and the deer treat this area as a safe zone and flock to this area when they start feeling pressure. Their idea is to kill off a majority of doe around that area and the deer in Cayuga Heights will move out naturally We have asked CH to allow us to organize a push (no guns for pushers) during gun season to kick out all the deer taking harbor there and they continue to say no citing privacy issues and oddly... some are treehuggers that don’t think humans should kill animals.
For the record, my house and property are a half hour away from the DMFA. But... the very reason I have always hunted this far from home was to get away from the insane hunting pressure around my 30 acres 2 of my 3 neighbors at home push (slowly not like a gun drive) deer during bow season to give you an idea the pressure I mean.

https://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/82382.html

 

[Tree Spud]

Suburban areas are great places for deer. Lots that are 2 acres with pine tree blocks, gardens, flower beds, shrubs, and bird feeders. We have deer in and moving through our yard everyday. When I back out of the garage in the morning, there are usually deer in the apple trees 30'-40' away who do not move and just watch me drive away.

 

[yoderjac]

Suburban areas are great places for deer. Lots that are 2 acres with pine tree blocks, gardens, flower beds, shrubs, and bird feeders. We have deer in and moving through our yard everyday. When I back out of the garage in the morning, there are usually deer in the apple trees 30'-40' away who do not move and just watch me drive away.

They also show how important age is. In our state, the county with the most P&Y book bucks is a suburban county where there is essentially no firearm hunting permitted. It is over populated and I was one of the founders of a suburban archery group that connected property owners with deer damage to experienced bowhunters for population reduction. There is no intentional habitat improvement, food plots, or any other QDM. The only thing is that bucks live longer than other places in the state because there is essentially no firearm hunting and it is hard to kill mature bucks with a bow.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[bwoods11]

They also show how important age is. In our state, the county with the most P&Y book bucks is a suburban county where there is essentially no firearm hunting permitted. It is over populated and I was one of the founders of a suburban archery group that connected property owners with deer damage to experienced bowhunters for population reduction. There is no intentional habitat improvement, food plots, or any other QDM. The only thing is that bucks live longer than other places in the state because there is essentially no firearm hunting and it is hard to kill mature bucks with a bow.

Thanks,

Jack

The key to bucks survival (age) is the firearm season. Look at states with a late firearm season like Iowa. It is the biggest key to survival, hands down. States like Minnesota, that have enormous potential for big bucks, never see the potential, because there are 500,000 orange gun hunters in early November when the bucks are rutting. Poor, poor management and it is sad, because our state should be "the best".

For a buck to survive beyond 3 years old, he has to find a state park, a 5 acre metro property, or sometimes a big swamp that allows him to bed down in a sanctuary. That is unless he lives on a well managed farm where they "pass" the young bucks.

 

[roymunson]

I try to play the age game more than the size game. A 5 year old was killed off of our farm last year that scored 119. We had seen him grow up year to year, he never made the size jump. I'd chased him al lyear and my buddy got him with the gun. I was thrilled for him. As far as cagey, that deer was every bit as smart and tough to kill as a 170" 5 year old. No shame in that.

We let a 155" 4 year old walk. He's a homebody and I can't wait to see him this year. May not get a shot at him, but the thought of the 5 year old to hunt is more appealing than the 4 year old last year.

JMO. I may kill a 4 year old without as much history, or a deer that uses our property as a fringe area of his range. But There is room for nuance in this hunting thing. Just go enjoy it.

 

[SwampCat]

Compared to what most northern states have for seasons, if most southern firearm seasons were 14 days with a one buck limit - instead of the typical six to twelve week season and two or three bucks - there is no telling what kind of big bucks might be produced. We would probably also start having some of those areas with 50 and 60 deer per square mile.

 

[yoderjac]

Compared to what most northern states have for seasons, if most southern firearm seasons were 14 days with a one buck limit - instead of the typical six to twelve week season and two or three bucks - there is no telling what kind of big bucks might be produced. We would probably also start having some of those areas with 50 and 60 deer per square mile.

Eventually you run into Bergman's Rule except in areas where deer were imported.

 

[SwampCat]

Eventually you run into Bergman's Rule except in areas where deer were imported.

you run into more than that - but comparatively speaking - I have no doubt a ten or twelve day firearm season would allow a lot of additional bucks to reach an additional year older. Shooting most of your 3.5 yr old bucks each year because of six week long firearms seasons with two buck limits has a much greater affect on local antler quality than Bergmans rule.

 

[yoderjac]

you run into more than that - but comparatively speaking - I have no doubt a ten or twelve day firearm season would allow a lot of additional bucks to reach an additional year older. Shooting most of your 3.5 yr old bucks each year because of six week long firearms seasons with two buck limits has a much greater affect on local antler quality than Bergmans rule.

Lots to consider here. Age is clearly an important factor, and season length and timing are factors, but not the only ones. Hunter hours and density are also factors. I grew up in PA with short seasons, but hunting deer was a requirement of residency, or so it seemed. With that many hunters and such a short season. Hunter densities were very high and deer were running every which way and most everything with antlers was shot. We have long seasons in VA. Opening weekend has heavy pressure, but not like in PA. After hunting for a month of archery and a couple weeks of muzzleloader, guys peter out pretty quickly after opening weekend. Here, the biggest impact has been muzzleloader season being coincident with the rut.

While biology is a major consideration when developing regs, it is not the only factor. Our harvest has been fairly flat recently, but that harvest is accounted for by fewer hunters killing more deer. At the rate we are attriting, hunter satisfaction and behavior becomes a factor. There are lots of things to balance. Do we really want more older deer at the cost of lower recruitment and retention? Regs are not the only factor in this, but they play a role.

I would agree with you that reducing firearm season length and the number of buck tags would increase the average age of a buck, but our bucks will rival bucks in the big farming states. Deer are made of dirt. Places with good dirt will never challenge places with great dirt.

I have to say that I enjoy deer hunting much more here than I ever did growing up in PA.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

Lots to consider here. Age is clearly an important factor, and season length and timing are factors, but not the only ones. Hunter hours and density are also factors. I grew up in PA with short seasons, but hunting deer was a requirement of residency, or so it seemed. With that many hunters and such a short season. Hunter densities were very high and deer were running every which way and most everything with antlers was shot. We have long seasons in VA. Opening weekend has heavy pressure, but not like in PA. After hunting for a month of archery and a couple weeks of muzzleloader, guys peter out pretty quickly after opening weekend. Here, the biggest impact has been muzzleloader season being coincident with the rut.

While biology is a major consideration when developing regs, it is not the only factor. Our harvest has been fairly flat recently, but that harvest is accounted for by fewer hunters killing more deer. At the rate we are attriting, hunter satisfaction and behavior becomes a factor. There are lots of things to balance. Do we really want more older deer at the cost of lower recruitment and retention? Regs are not the only factor in this, but they play a role.

I would agree with you that reducing firearm season length and the number of buck tags would increase the average age of a buck, but our bucks will rival bucks in the big farming states. Deer are made of dirt. Places with good dirt will never challenge places with great dirt.

I have to say that I enjoy deer hunting much more here than I ever did growing up in PA.

Thanks,

Jack

I agree - that is why I said here is more to it than Bergmans rule - and a lot of it has to do with the dirt.