Brassica/Clover Rotation Question

[Jer]

New to the forum and fairly new to food plots. I live in the Northeast and this is my 3rd year planting. I have a kill plot that is referred to as my "meat garden" which has grown to be about .35 acres.

Year one (2014) I planted a mix that included dwarf essex rape, groundhog radish and a few types of clover. Year two (2015), I planted a mix over the entire plot of barsicca rape, turnip, groundhog radish and a few types of clover. Year three (2016), I began to worry about what we all have read about disease and crop rotation. This year I expanded the plot from .25 acres to about .35 acres, but cutting trees, stump grinding and preparing the soil. I then split the plot in half and left the clover that was established from 2015 to grow for 2016. I sprayed the other half with Gly and planted July 15th in the expanded area (plus a little overlap) again with a mixture of barsicca rape, ground hog radish, turnip and Red clover this time. Also, for a little background I did test and lime the soil year 2 with pelletized lime as well as the expanded section in 2016. All 3 years I have tilled in triple 19 fertilizer at a rate of 300lbs/acre. Year two the plot looked amazing, with the barsicca so lush and tall that it was falling over from it's own weight. Here are a couple of grainy pics from 2015:



This year the clover came in pretty well, but I did not treat it with anything to kill the weeds. I elected to mow it one time, but the weeds are still present. The new half with the brassica mix is also coming in really well this year. Here is a picture of 24 days after I planted, where the brassica mix is to the left and the clover is to the right.

What my dilemma is that I am concerned the deer are going to devour the brassica half before the hunting season. I'm sure it will be fine thru bow season, but will likely be dirt by Rifle. It's taken me a while to get to my question, but wanted to give some background info first. Here goes with the series of questions. Has anyone every experimented with the similar plantings that I'm doing, by planting the clover with the brassicas in the mid summer for a fall plot? Brassicas do very well nursing the clover, while it establishes. Then the following spring, you have a well established clover plot that in my region would be there May, June and most of July. My plan would be to spray mid July with Gly and then till in the clover, before replanting the brassica/clover mixture again. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge to know if the clover growing for the months of May, June and most of July would be enough of a rotation before replanting brassicas. I understand the rule of thumb says every other year. I'm just curious others thoughts on this?

 

[yoderjac]

Brassica is not a good nurse crop for clover. Cereal grains, Winter Rye especially, make a great nurse crop. I've included light brassica (GHR to be specific) in a clover/winter rye mix with no problem but light is 2 lbs/ac only. Another approach to use brassica with clover is to drill radish into well established but suppressed clover.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[wiscwhip]

Just get some winter rye seeded into those brassicas as soon as possible. Even if they eat the brassicas to the ground you will have the rye for backup food. I have done this many times in the past and it should work fine. You will have a rye plot at the very least, and the ground will not be bare dirt.

 

[Jer]

Jack,

Thank you for your input. I do appreciate it as I'm certainly no expert. Still trying to learn as much as I can. This planting is pretty fun to say the least. What I am trying to do is find a way to plant brassicas on the same ground year after year in successive years. My reasoning for planting the clover with the brassicas, was not to develop a clover plot. My thinking was to interrupt the planting of brassicas, by having a legume like clover for a few months in the spring prior to planting the brassicas in late July to early August. Has anyone tried this multiple years without any problems from disease with the brassicas?

 

[Jer]

Wiscwhip,

It's interesting you say that about the winter rye! Just this weekend I did in fact spread some winter rye on the thin areas of the brassicas, with the exact same thought in mind. However, I did not incorporate throughout the entire stand of brasscias. Maybe I should seed over the rest of them?

 

[wiscwhip]

Wiscwhip,

It's interesting you say that about the winter rye! Just this weekend I did in fact spread some winter rye on the thin areas of the brassicas, with the exact same thought in mind. However, I did not incorporate throughout the entire stand of brasscias. Maybe I should seed over the rest of them?

If you have any inclination that the deer will decimate them, it will not hurt to overseed the whole nine yards. Not to mention that in the spring when the brassicas are toast, you will have some early food and ground cover working to feed pregnant does and keep weeds down.

 

[Jer]

I like it. That's a great idea! So maybe instead of planting clover at the same time as the brassicas, wait a month and plant winter rye throughout the brassica stand. Then overseed in the spring with more winter rye on any bare ground. Let the winter rye grow until mid July before tilling in the ground and replanting brassica? Has this been tried? Being that it's total only 1/3 of an acre I would prefer to have it all covered in brassica for the fall.

Our deer densities are very low, but handful of deer I have on camera can do some serious damage from my little experience. So yes, I do expect them to decimate the brassicas unfortunately

 

[Phil]

I think what your saying is you know planting brassicas year over year in the same food plot can be disastrous disease wise? For instance club root and other brassica related diseases can present themselves if brassicas are planted back to back for more than 3 years. I think on QDMA someone mentioned that disease isn't as big of an issue with food plotters, but I don't really understand why they said this. Maybe someone could explain if disease is an issue if you plant buckwheat in the spring and then plant 2 months later brassica. I wish I knew this also, because I am always nervous about disease.

 

[wiscwhip]

Has this been tried?

Been tried! LOL! You bet, that is a "staple" for many guys plot "rotations". I would also spread about 2lbs of medium red clover in there as well. It will not do much this fall, but next spring it will take off and provide lots of food and also provide some nitrogen for next years brassicas. Have you done a soil test?

 

[wiscwhip]

I think what your saying is you know planting brassicas year over year in the same food plot can be disastrous disease wise? For instance club root and other brassica related diseases can present themselves if brassicas are planted back to back for more than 3 years. I think on QDMA someone mentioned that disease isn't as big of an issue with food plotters, but I don't really understand why they said this. Maybe someone could explain if disease is an issue if you plant buckwheat in the spring and then plant 2 months later brassica. I wish I knew this also, because I am always nervous about disease.

A lot of speculation where this is concerned. Some may have disease issues using the methods you describe, others may not. I'm sure much of it depends on if those diseases are common in your area and also it is a bit dependant on if weather conditions are right to promote those diseases. One just has to be ready with plan "B" if it turns out your plots get stricken with a brassica disease. Failed plantings suck, but ALWAYS have a quick hitting plan "B" ready for those occasions.

 

[Phil]

A lot of speculation where this is concerned. Some may have disease issues using the methods you describe, others may not. I'm sure much of it depends on if those diseases are common in your area and also it is a bit dependant on if weather conditions are right to promote those diseases. One just has to be ready with plan "B" if it turns out your plots get stricken with a brassica disease. Failed plantings suck, but ALWAYS have a quick hitting plan "B" ready for those occasions.

Wiscwhip, will the disease remain in the soil? or will it disappear if you plant buckwheat and winter rye the following year. And wait a full year to replant the brassica? I am a desk jockey so this foodplotting is my hobby, so I just don't want to ruin a nice plot by planting year over year brassicas to find out that disease wipes them out and it remains in the soil for years, if that is the case.

 

[bbcoach]

Jer, Split your plot in two halves. Plant WR and Dutch white clover on one half and brassicas on the other half and rotate every year or every other year and your problem is solved. If the deer decimate your brassicas keep some WR on hand to over seed the brassica plot. The clover will put down some nitrogen for your brassicas and the clover will help feed through the spring and summer.

 

[wiscwhip]

bb is right on with the above post. You could potentially have some residual disease issues for a year to 15 months, but if you do happen to end up with brassica issues, then you just turn that area into a perennial white clover plot for 12 to 15 months as bb stated and it should be good to go back to brassicas after that. BTW, I do not personally know of anyone who has done brassicas in the fall that has interseeded it with rye/rye-clover that grows the following spring or that has planted a short term buckwheat crop the following spring that has had any issues replanting brassica the following fall, but that is just my experience. I'm not insinuating that it could NEVER happen.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Jer - Whip and BB have it right. If you rotate by halving your plot, you'll be taking a precautionary approach to any brassica disease problems. Also adding nitrogen from the clover. Having a back-up plan like rye/clover mix will cover the bases if brassicas fail for whatever reason. Smart approach = less wasted time, $$, and better results.

 

[Jer]

Wiscwhip,

I have only done the rapitest soil sample kits, which I have done to check the levels of N, P & K. I've also checked soil acidity with these test kits. I've not gone the step further to have our local university conduct a true soil sample test. Each year I've added the 19/19/19 which seems to give me good levels of P & K. However, the brassicas eat the heck out of the N. The last 2 years I've even spread urea twice during the growing season on the brassicas, which is insane the reaction the plants get from it. What's interesting is that the nitrogen the following spring is low even after the urea doses from the previous summer and fall. I guess it's either eaten or dissipated.

The back-up plan of planting winter rye if stricken with disease is a very good idea. Thank you!

 

[Jer]

BB,

I 100% agree with you about splitting the plot, which is what I did this year. Half is all clover from 2015 planting (plus frost seeding in spring). The other half is the rape, turnip, radish and red clover. My concern is the size of this plot is only 1/3 acre total. Half that is 1/6, which isn't much for brassicas based on what they've eaten in the past.

Phil asks a very good question about if disease were to happen, how long would the residual effects stay in the soil. Wiscwhip says it may last for 12-15 months, which really isn't that bad in my mind anyway. So a diseased plot would only need to be rotated for one year with WR or Clover to rid the soil of the disease. In the case of disease as previously stated, plant WR before fall and then Replant the WR or clover the following spring and leave it that way for another 15 months before going back to brassicas?

 

[wiscwhip]

Wiscwhip,

I have only done the rapitest soil sample kits, which I have done to check the levels of N, P & K. I've also checked soil acidity with these test kits. I've not gone the step further to have our local university conduct a true soil sample test. Each year I've added the 19/19/19 which seems to give me good levels of P & K. However, the brassicas eat the heck out of the N. The last 2 years I've even spread urea twice during the growing season on the brassicas, which is insane the reaction the plants get from it. What's interesting is that the nitrogen the following spring is low even after the urea doses from the previous summer and fall. I guess it's either eaten or dissipated.

The back-up plan of planting winter rye if stricken with disease is a very good idea. Thank you!

Get a "real" soil test done, you might be throwing money away with the trip19 every year. You might just need to add N, which in that case you could put that money to other habitat uses. Also, those cheap test kits are usually very inaccurate, and can vary depending on if your soil is moist or dry.

 

[bueller]

Whip has given some very good advice in this thread. I ALWAYS overseed my brassicas with winter rye. BUT I'm in an area where brassicas are heavily used by the deer. As Whip stated, adding a couple pounds of red clover when overseeding the rye works very well. And the cost is very low. Don't expect the clover to do anything in the fall/winter the after seeding, but next spring/summer you will be reaping the benefits regardless of what you will be doing with the plot in the future.

 

[wiscwhip]

next spring/summer you will be reaping the benefits regardless of what you will be doing with the plot in the future.

This ^^^ should always be a consideration, given we as food plotters do not receive any monetary benefits from our efforts like a true farmer does.

 

[bbcoach]

A TRUE soil test is the way to go! It will tell you exactly what you need for the specific crop you are growing so you will need to send off two soil samples, one half for clover and one half for brassicas. As stated, this will save you money so you don't over fertilize with something that isn't needed and see if you need lime as well. As far as splitting your food plot in two halves, you are providing more of a variety with the WR, clover and brassicas. You will still have a third of an acre but with more variety and a sustained food source for the year. As I stated earlier, have some WR on hand if they decimate your brassicas. WR will grow in the bed of a pickup truck so just over seed the brassica plot and you'll have a quality forage throughout the winter and early spring.