Big Game Rifle Cartridges

[foggy]

OK....so I used to make some precision reloading tools. Bullet seating gauges, headspace gauges, bullet comparators and some other techy stuff.

As such.....I spent ALLOT of time tweaking around with chamber and cartridge dimensions. I came to really appreciate how the 280 Remington cartridge....and guns so chambered....were not "butchered" up....by trying to be all-things-to-everybody.

What happens to so many cartridge (SAAMI) specs is that they try to accommodate too many bullet weights to make the guns "versatile" for many purposes......and therefore may have a long throat and loose tolerances to accommodate all these larger bullets. (like bullets that range from 100gns to 220gns in the 30-06 ?? duh!) This versatility is bad for accuracy....much like a gun that is "shot-out".

Also they kept the DIAMETERS of the case neck and cartridge diameter (IIRC) from excess sizes......so the case fits better in the chamber (to promote alignment with the bore) and does not "rattle around" in the chamber. These thing REALLY promote accuracy in a factory chamber. Then too.....with a "short throat" you can seat the bullets out near the rifling to further promote accuracy! Win / win / win.

Some of this info also is true to some extent with a few other cartridges out there......but none so much as the 280 Remington.....IMHO. Consider it.....if you are really into long-range, precision shooting for medium sized game. :) It may not be the most popular.....but it is often carried by many folks that know about such "details". ;)

 

[sandbur]

Tom, I don't understand everything you said, but my 280 is accurate. Probably my best shooter and I think I had my tightest group with it. Either that or a .223 in the same 700 Remington classic.

 

[foggy]

Tom, I don't understand everything you said, but my 280 is accurate. Probably my best shooter and I think I had my tightest group with it. Either that or a .223 in the same 700 Remington classic.

Hell....I aint really sure what I said either. ;) .....but that won't stop me. :))

 

[sandbur]

Hell....I aint really sure what I said either. ;) .....but that won't stop me. :))

You are qualified to run for office!

 

[foggy]

Art.....One of the reasons muzzle-loaders are so accurate.....is that the bullet is already in the bore of the gun. NO LOSS OF ALIGNMENT of the bullet with the bore of the gun. The breech loaded gun has certain problems.....many which stem from getting the bullet to properly align with the barrel (bore) of the gun. Some cartgtriges are better at that than others. That was my point about the 280Rem......it IS a bit better than most. :)

223?? typically, not so much. But they are fun to shoot.

 

[Native Hunter]

I'm with you on the long throated rifles - they suck! Been there and done that....

 

[sandbur]

Art.....One of the reasons muzzle-loaders are so accurate.....is that the bullet is already in the bore of the gun. NO LOSS OF ALIGNMENT of the bullet with the bore of the gun. The breech loaded gun has certain problems.....many which stem from getting the bullet to properly align with the barrel (bore) of the gun. Some cartgtriges are better at that than others. That was my point about the 280Rem......it IS a bit better than most. :)

223?? typically, not so much. But they are fun to shoot.

I understood that part of your post. I can remember something about the loss of accuracy if the bullet has to "jump" into the barrel. Something about seating the bullet so it just touches the lands?? Do I have it right????

 

[Native Hunter]

I understood that part of your post. I can remember something about the loss of accuracy if the bullet has to "jump" into the barrel. Something about seating the bullet so it just touches the lands?? Do I have it right????

Yes, or just shy of touching. Sometimes you can adjust it a little and improve accuracy. You have to be careful and not set it to where it jams too hard in the lands - I've actually seen bullets hang in the lands when someone tries to unload their rifle...LOL.

 

[foggy]

I'm with you on the long throated rifles - they suck! Been there and done that....

Yep. Seating the bullet out near the rifling is fundamental to good accuracy. I've likely spent more time thinking about this subject more than 10,000 other folks. One thing this does is reduce the bullet "jump" to the lands of the rifling. The other thing it does is serve to center the entire cartridge with the bore of the rifle....which makes things concentric with the bore - prior to punching the firing pin and sending the bullet down the bore.

In my bench rest shooting......I had such close tolerances of the case with the chamber that only a few ten-thousanths of an inch allowed the bullet to release from the case's neck. The bullets were actually engraving into the lands (rifling) by a few thousandths of an inch. Once the bolt was closed I had to fire the gun or (upon ejecting) the bullet would be stuck in the bore......and I'd spill powder all over the action. Grrrrr.

This is what virtually all competitive shooters do....they get most of the excess dimensions out of the mate of the cartridge with the chamber. THEN....you are back to the good ole muzzle loader....at least in theory. (hope that makes sense?)

 

[Native Hunter]

Yep. Seating the bullet out near the rifling is fundamental to good accuracy. I've likely spent more time thinking about this subject more than 10,000 other folks. One thing this does is reduce the bullet "jump" to the lands of the rifling. The other thing it does is serve to center the entire cartridge with the bore of the rifle....which makes things concentric with the bore - prior to punching the firing pin and sending the bullet down the bore.

In my bench rest shooting......I had such close tolerances of the case with the chamber that only a few ten-thousanths of an inch allowed the bullet to release from the case's neck. The bullets were actually engraving into the lands (rifling) by a few thousandths of an inch. Once the bolt was closed I had to fire the gun or (upon ejecting) the bullet would be stuck in the bore......and I'd spill powder all over the action. Grrrrr.

This is what virtually all competitive shooters do....they get most of the excess dimensions out of the mate of the cartridge with the chamber. THEN....you are back to the good ole muzzle loader....at least in theory. (hope that makes sense?)

Makes perfect sense to me since I have been a handloader all my life. I can tell that you flat know your stuff on this subject.

Well...headed to bed now...I'm going to try and introduce a coyote to my Tikka in the morning and want to be there at daylight!!

 

[mikmaze]

I was trying to set up as close to the riffling as I could in my tika t3 lite stainless 270, I was using uncharged, unprimed brass and chambering rounds. Well I found out what "too tall" would do. riffling plucked the bullet right out of the case and stuck there. That was interesting. Went back to the book, noted max chart, and settled back towards that.

 

[foggy]

One thing....there is no SAAMI specification for the "throat" of a rifle barrel. In other words....where the rifling begins is largely up to the discretion of the rifle / barrel maker. Therefore bullet seating depth and the resulting bullet jump (to the origins or the rifling "lands") is a big variable. Then too....all brands of bullets have differently shaped ogives. Also as the gun is fired....the flame and powder from the cartridge will slowly erode the barrel at the throat. So it's an ever-changing dimension at a very critical area of the barrel: the gap between the bullet and the rifling.....prior to firing the gun. Very Subjective......and why I sold lots of gauges to allow handloaders to determine this variable. :D ;)

 

[foggy]

At one time several years back.....I was shopping for a new rifle. The dealer had two IDENTICAL new rifles sitting in his rack. Both were chambered for the same cartridge....but the serial numbers were quite different. With the dealers permission to check the chambers......I went out to my vehicle to get the tools I was manufacturing at the time and promptly got some data on bullet jump. One of those guns seemed perfect with the bullet touching the rifling and plenty of bullet remaining in the case neck.....just as you would hope. However the other gun must have been throated by another worker or another reamer.....as the same bullet was completely out of the cartridge before it touched the rifling. These were both 22-250 varmint guns.....made by a reputable manufacturer.

I told the dealer I was only interested in the first gun.....and then asked him (he watched my process) which gun he would buy. He replied he had to sell both guns and he hoped more folks would not check like this. That was about 20 years ago.....and I still never seed anyone checking the bullet jump before buying a new gun. Oh well......I do. ;):D

 

[Native Hunter]

At one time several years back.....I was shopping for a new rifle. The dealer had two IDENTICAL new rifles sitting in his rack. Both were chambered for the same cartridge....but the serial numbers were quite different. With the dealers permission to check the chambers......I went out to my vehicle to get the tools I was manufacturing at the time and promptly got some data on bullet jump. One of those guns seemed perfect with the bullet touching the rifling and plenty of bullet remaining in the case neck.....just as you would hope. However the other gun must have been throated by another worker or another reamer.....as the same bullet was completely out of the cartridge before it touched the rifling. These were both 22-250 varmint guns.....made by a reputable manufacturer.

I told the dealer I was only interested in the first gun.....and then asked him (he watched my process) which gun he would buy. He replied he had to sell both guns and he hoped more folks would not check like this. That was about 20 years ago.....and I still never seed anyone checking the bullet jump before buying a new gun. Oh well......I do. ;):D

I wish I had checked it before I bought a Ruger 77 300 Win Mag. Never seen such a long throated piece of junk in my life. Shoots great if you are into single shots.

 

[foggy]

Yep. Ruger's are somewhat known for a long throat, not great barrels....and crunchy triggers. Still....Ruger is all-American....and I like some of their stuff (revolvers and 22's come to mind). I own a ruger rifle that (even with a long throat) shoots like a house-afire. Go figure....rules are made to be broken.

Several other brands are known for long-throats too....Including the older Weatherby's. Not too sure about current offerings.....as I am kinda out of date. Roy Weatherby used to want long throats to allow for 'magnum pressures' and a "run at the bore". Yeah.....riiiiight Roy. ;)

HOWEVER.....the gun companies hands are tied in many cases. Can you imagine that you need to get such a large number of cartridges with various bullets all to fit in your firearm and get some semblance of accuracy out of all of them? Our American fascination with one gun handling such a wide variety of bullet shapes and sizes makes a nightmare for the gun companies. If they would just hold-down to the more ideal bullet weights and sizes that the cartridge is designed for.....none of this would be an issue and our guns would shoot more accurately. i.e.: If the 300 winchester would only shoot bullets that weigh 180 grain....with an ogive of XXX we could have more accurate guns. But noooo.....we need 100 grain and 220 grain bullets. :rolleyes: Sheesh.

For lighter or heavier bullets we could select another cartridge which would excel at a different bullet weight. Alas.....we have duped ourselves thru ignorance and marketing. Hey....it's America! ;) o_O:rolleyes::eek::confused:

 

[foggy]

OK.....I'm on a roll now. Thought I would post some of my old instructions, a few illustrations I made, and show one of my old Rem Titanium actions. Those illustrations and pictures are mine.....so are the hands. ;) Kinda fun re-visiting this old stuff. Hope its not too overbearing. :D Hornady now has this product line. Good folks. I see they have simplified my old " instruction language" here.


Hornady LNL OAL Gauge and Bullet Comparator
View Images

Price:$52.00
Prod. Code:C1000

For max accuracy you need consistent bullet position relative to the start of the barrel's rifling. You can set this by trial and error, but it is much easier (and more repeatable) to use the Hornady O.A.L. Gauge to measure case length with the bullet ogive just touching the lands. When combined with a Bullet Comparator (with caliber-specific insert), you can also very quickly measure case base to ogive for any loaded round.

The Hornady system (formerly Stoney Point) consists of the O.A.L. Gauge, a red aluminum tube with a plastic internal pusher rod, and a "Modified Case", a 6mm BR case that has been bored and threaded at the base. This screws on to the end of the O.A.L. Gauge, and is sold separately by caliber. Though not essential, we also strongly recommend you get a Hornady Bullet Comparator. This Comparator attaches to the jaws of your calipers and lets you make readings off the bullet ogive.

When using the unit, you should take measurements from 3 or 4 different bullets (in each box), since there will be minor bullet to bullet variances. It also takes a little practice to get the right "feel" for putting the bullet in contact with the lands. We go for a fairly firm seat, sliding the bullet until we feel resistance, then tapping a couple times on the gray rod while holding the Red Gauge body firmly against the mouth of the chamber. That usually gives very consistent results, if you start with a clean bore. When repeatedly measuring with the same bullet, the OAL normally is within .001", 8 times out of 10.

We've also found it helps improve results if, prior to measuring, you insert the tool with the Modified Case attached until it fits flush with the outside of the chamber, then rotate it a bit clockwise and counter-clockwise. That tends to remove any fouling build up. Also every time you measure with the tool, make sure the Modified Case is screwed on tight. It can tend to unscrew a bit as you remove the tool from your rifle's chamber (see bottom photo). If the Modified Case is not fully seated on the O.A.L. Gauge, measurements will vary.

We've listed a "street price" of $53.00 which will cover a straight O.A.L. gauge, a modified case, a Bullet Comparator body, and a caliber insert. It's not a bad idea to buy the Bullet Comparator Basic Set (Item #B234-678, $26 at MidwayUSA). This lets you measure a variety of calibers (.223, .243, .264, .277, 7mm, and .308). Then, by adding a second Comparator body ($14) and second 6mm insert ($3.50), you can sort individual bullets by bearing surface length (ogive to bottom of max diameter). See how this works in the photo above. You can sort bullets very quickly this way. We have found, in many guns, sorting bullets by base to ogive improves accuracy more than by sorting by bullet-weight alone.

The next point is important--we recommend you keep a 36" piece of wood dowel in the bore. This helps seat the bullet more consistently and it lets you tap the bullet out easily if it sticks in the lands. Since firm contact with the lands produces the most repeatable measurements, you really need to have a long dowel handy. A cleaning rod will work in a pinch, but it is more likely to harm the delicate crown of your rifle. Stoney Point's "Tech Tips" confirms: "When using the OAL Gauge we have found the most accurate results come when using a wooden dowel inserted through the muzzle of the firearm. This allows you to 'sandwich' the bullet between the dowel and the bullet push-rod in the OAL Gauge. Then it's easy to jockey the bullet back and forth as you feel the 'stick-point' of the bullet on the rifling. Lock in this 'stick-point' for repeatable results." Just be sure you remove the dowel before you shoot the rifle!

Another benefit of the Stoney Point measuring system, if you keep good records, is that you can track throat erosion. Often you will find OAL to lands grows .003-006" very quickly in the first 100 rounds or so as burrs or chatter-marks polish out, but then it stabilizes. But regular use of the OAL gauge will let you "chase the lands" to keep bullet position constant relative to the entrance to the rifling.

Midway USA User Review: "This is indispensible for making top grade ammo. It is the best design for fitting your bullet into the throat of your gun safely and accurately. Just screw the case on, push a bullet in and push it all into the chamber until the bullet touches the lands. Lock the screw and pull it out. Then reset it up and measure with the comparator. It takes a few times to get a consistent and accurate method, but then it is perfect and repeatable." N. Padget, Delaware, OH

 

[Native Hunter]

Keep it coming Foggy. I'm in the "Amen Corner" with you on this.

Question: If I bought another Tikka T3 like my 22-250 in a larger caliber like a 270 or 30-06, what do you think that my chances are of getting a tack driver?

 

[mikmaze]

my hand loads are tacks, 270 t3 lite stainless. I got lucky, but I read for days on which gun to buy as it was my first rifle purchase. Never needed one before, jersey has no high power rifle season, but now have property in NY to hunt. Glad I bought what I did. I do read a lot of good stuff now on the new 260 round, and am intrigued.

 

[Native Hunter]

my hand loads are tacks, 270 t3 lite stainless. I got lucky, but I read for days on which gun to buy as it was my first rifle purchase. Never needed one before, jersey has no high power rifle season, but now have property in NY to hunt. Glad I bought what I did. I do read a lot of good stuff now on the new 260 round, and am intrigued.

Good info. The 260 is okay, but I have some possible shots at very long range and feel that a 270 would suit me better. If they make the T3 in the 280 I would rather have that. I once owned a 264 Magnum that was a nice gun but let a guy talk me out of it. Mistake.......

 

[mikmaze]

I think they made one in 280, for the rocky mountain elk federation or something like that, only time they ever made it. rare beast.