Best thing to plant in first year of no till plot

[BJE80]

I will be putting in my first no till, no equipment food plot this year. I will be using my saw blade on my weed whacker to trim all brush and scrubs and then spraying as the summer goes on.

What would be a good thing to plant my first year to get things rolling that will work well in this thatch? I'm guessing the PH is around 5.3-5.5. I will lime after I get the brush out of the way this spring.

 

[PRK]

My first no till last year I planted WR, oats, radish, PTT, rape, and clovers and everything grew well. I roughed up the surface with a chain drag before seeding and fertilizing then flattened it with a chain link fence and lucked out with a lot of rain to keep the thatch moist. That no till plot is still being worked over by the deer. I have a couple spots in the woods that look like what you have there and will get the same smorgasbord , no till planting this year.

 

[BJE80]

My first no till last year I planted WR, oats, radish, PTT, rape, and clovers and everything grew well. I roughed up the surface with a chain drag before seeding and fertilizing then flattened it with a chain link fence and lucked out with a lot of rain to keep the thatch moist. That no till plot is still being worked over by the deer. I have a couple spots in the woods that look like what you have there and will get the same smorgasbord , no till planting this year.

No equipment can get here. All I get to use is a sprayer, hand seeder/spreader. I wasn't planning on roughing up the surface at all. Just letting the rain do the work for me.


Typically I follow the LC mix so I'm guessing either I start with brassicas or ceral mix. Open to suggestions.

 

[PRK]

When I started I was only going to seed WR and oats but I had a bunch of left over brassica and clover seed so I seeded it in not expecting much and was amazed at how well it grew. I can get the atv into the spots so it helps a lot but don't think it's necessary. Look at the lawn mower plot MNfish posted. Amazing.

 

[kabic]

Since sounds like you will plant in the fall after a summer of spraying & liming (planning on adding fertilizer????) I to would suggest winter rye, and some clover. Your going to want small seeds that can work their way through the thatch. Clover would have small seed, alsike clover can do good at lower PH. I planted a clover blend in new ground, but I'm guessing my PH was in the 6 range. Winter rye germinates in back of truck beds apparently so may not be quite as necessary to get soil contact with that.

maybe some tillage radish, does that need lower N than turnips?

 

[BJE80]

Since sounds like you will plant in the fall after a summer of spraying & liming (planning on adding fertilizer????) I to would suggest winter rye, and some clover. Your going to want small seeds that can work their way through the thatch. Clover would have small seed, alsike clover can do good at lower PH. I planted a clover blend in new ground, but I'm guessing my PH was in the 6 range. Winter rye germinates in back of truck beds apparently so may not be quite as necessary to get soil contact with that.

maybe some tillage radish, does that need lower N than turnips?

It it did come down to wanting to plant brassicas I would have no problem spreading urea and getting the N I need. As you said, small seeds. Clover, Brassicas and maybe winter rye. But how much of what is the question.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

I've planted alot of things using the same method as you are describing and have had pretty decent results with most things....like kabic said small seeds work best and rye will germinate on concrete with enough moisture...lol! Most brassicas are small seeded (varieties of turnips and rape). Tillage radish are slightly larger seeds and i have found that broadcasting them into thatch results in a slightly lower germination rate....but not enough to deter me from planting them.

not sure how your soils respond to liming, but mine are in the low to mid 5's like yours. mine take a little more time to get the pH up into the 6's, but i have planted brassicas on them in the first year and achieved decent growth. I like brassicas as a first planting because they do a good job of suppressing weed competition....but a good carpet of rye can do the same.

i take it this smallerish "kill' plot tucked back in the woods? If so when do you want to have the most attraction to it?

Depending on the overall shape and size of the plot you may be able to put it into strips or blocks of two different plantings that will give you attraction throughout the season and possibly beyond depending on your deer density and surrounding food sources.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

It it did come down to wanting to plant brassicas I would have no problem spreading urea and getting the N I need. As you said, small seeds. Clover, Brassicas and maybe winter rye. But how much of what is the question.

the first time i broadcast brassicas into a dead thatch i went heavier on the seeding rate because i figured i would have a lower germination rate.....bad move. I ended up with too many plants in the plot and they were all stunted and tuber growth was severely impacted.

try doing a strip or block of rye/oats/clover and strip or block of brassicas and then rotate them every year instead of just doing a mix of all of them over the whole plot.

 

[BJE80]

Not to be negative...but that area looks to me like you should be planning on a foodplot in 2016 rather than 2015. Getting that brush dead and totally under control without any equipment is going to require a number of chemical applications. Gly is not going to kill that stuff to the roots, you're going to need to use something else...and most of those herbicides have a pretty good residual in the soil.

Having trouble with the brush or grass? The brush I will take care of with the weed whacker saw blade. Then rake all the brush off the plot. The grasses I was able to keep dead all along last year when I planted my apple trees here. Am I missing something?

 

[wiscwhip]

The brush you cut down will stump sprout like wildfire along with possibly sprouting from the root systems away from the main "stump". You need to use Tordon RTU or Garlon-4 to prevent this, gly may work or it may just pi$$ them off.

 

[BJE80]

I've planted alot of things using the same method as you are describing and have had pretty decent results with most things....like kabic said small seeds work best and rye will germinate on concrete with enough moisture...lol! Most brassicas are small seeded (varieties of turnips and rape). Tillage radish are slightly larger seeds and i have found that broadcasting them into thatch results in a slightly lower germination rate....but not enough to deter me from planting them.

not sure how your soils respond to liming, but mine are in the low to mid 5's like yours. mine take a little more time to get the pH up into the 6's, but i have planted brassicas on them in the first year and achieved decent growth. I like brassicas as a first planting because they do a good job of suppressing weed competition....but a good carpet of rye can do the same.

i take it this smallerish "kill' plot tucked back in the woods? If so when do you want to have the most attraction to it?

Depending on the overall shape and size of the plot you may be able to put it into strips or blocks of two different plantings that will give you attraction throughout the season and possibly beyond depending on your deer density and surrounding food sources.

This plot is actually much closer to the cabin and road than my other plots. LOL But it has no trail close to it. The only way would be to open up a trail from the road and I don't want to do that. From what I've read this no till method can work pretty good and it seems like the best option by far. But yes this is a kill plot that I can quickly access from the road for a quick evening hunt.


I don't know how big as I will be making it up as I go. But based on the aerials I'm figureing 0.2 -0.25 acre. I've had good luck when I started my other plots with lower PH's in my soils as well with brassicas. I like the strips or blocks idea to see what works and what doesn't.

 

[BJE80]

The brush you cut down will stump sprout like wildfire along with possibly sprouting from the root systems away from the main "stump". You need to use Tordon RTU or Garlon-4 to prevent this, gly may work or it may just pi$$ them off.

So you guys are saying if I cut it all down near ground level and nuke it with whatever it needs to be this spring it won't be ready to plant this coming fall?

 

[phil@thesidehill]

The brush you cut down will stump sprout like wildfire along with possibly sprouting from the root systems away from the main "stump". You need to use Tordon RTU or Garlon-4 to prevent this, gly may work or it may just pi$$ them off.

I think it really depends on what species it is. i've done well on NN invasives like AO, Japanese Barberry and MFR buy cutting them off and treating with gly. AO needed to be treated several times in most cases, but barberry generally was down for the count. Some MFR i sprayed with gly before cutting and then sprayed the resulting regrowth the next year then mowed it and that was it.

But some things don't die easily and require more specific herbicide like you talking about wiscwhip.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

So you guys are saying if I cut it all down near ground level and nuke it with whatever it needs to be this spring it won't be ready to plant this coming fall?

depends on the chemical used. Obviously gly woulding be a concern, but other chemicals that are better suited for brush than gly may have soil residuals that would prohibit you from planting for a year or so.

 

[BJE80]

I don't know if this helps at all but I grabbed a few more pics from my apple trees at this location.

 

[wiscwhip]

So you guys are saying if I cut it all down near ground level and nuke it with whatever it needs to be this spring it won't be ready to plant this coming fall?

Use the correct herbicide for woody brush and you should be ok. The caveat is that some of those herbicides have a fairly long half-life in the soil. You must do your homework if you want to plant this fall. The other option is to just go about it as you have planned, spray only with gly, plant away, and then deal with the residual "woody invasion" if and when it happens, just don't be surprised to have unwanted stuff in your plot. Remember, it's a food plot for deer, not a production ag field.

 

[BJE80]

depends on the chemical used. Obviously gly woulding be a concern, but other chemicals that are better suited for brush than gly may have soil residuals that would prohibit you from planting for a year or so.

Obviously I would have to be damn careful killing brush with other chemicals with my apple trees around. :eek:


I really hope Gly will take of most of it.

 

[BJE80]

Use the correct herbicide for woody brush and you should be ok. The caveat is that some of those herbicides have a fairly long half-life in the soil. You must do your homework if you want to plant this fall. The other option is to just go about it as you have planned, spray only with gly, plant away, and then deal with the residual "woody invasion" if and when it happens, just don't be surprised to have unwanted stuff in your plot. Remember, it's a food plot for deer, not a production ag field.

This is what I was thinking. Deal with grow ups as they occur and hopefully just stick with gly.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

Obviously I would have to be damn careful killing brush with other chemicals with my apple trees around. :eek:


I really hope Gly will take of most of it.

what kind of brush is it?

I would say get in there and cut that stuff down as soon as possible then come spring green up you should be able to tell if you have some stump sprouting and root suckering. then hit it with gly and see what happens. cut it all again and spray again with gly if needed.

 

[wiscwhip]

It would probably be a darn good idea to positively ID what it is you're trying to kill, then find out if it is on the Gly label for treatment. I know from first hand experience that killing species that readily root sucker or those that are clonal with gly is an exercise in futility.

Especially the ones with clonal rootstocks, stump sprouts can eventually be eliminated with gly, but gly only kills the "green" stuff and will not penetrate far enough into the rootzones of plants like that, thus my comment about "pi$$ing them off, they will come back with a vengeance if not done correctly.