Apple planning phase.... - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Is there another bud below the one that broke?

Yes, that lower leaf. However, it is coming up out of the freezer tape. I'm pretty sure it is from the scion, but not 100%. It could be from the m111 that worked its way up.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack do you have any dolgo crabapple seed left?

No, I got the Dolgo and Siberian Red seed last spring. The Dolgo had very poor germination rate specs (4% as I recall). I only got a handful of trees out of it. This year, I tried pear instead and it was even worse. I ended up with only 2 PYRUS serrulata seedlings and no Sand Pear trees. I'm not sure what I did wrong. The PYRUS serrulata seeds needed less cold stratification and when I planted them many had mold. I checked the Sand Pear seeds and they had some mold as well. I cleaned them and returned them to cold stratification. I checked them in a couple weeks and the mold had returned and was worse. I cleaned them again. Even though they were not fully stratified, I decided to try to plant them. I got none to germinate. Evidently the method I use for cold stratifying chestnuts does not work well for germinating pear.
I'm hoping someone on here with Dolgo trees offer up some seed this fall.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

No dolgo seeds but if you want pear seeds just let me know. Native wild pear.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm at the farm today and got a chance to check the one crabapple seedling that I grafted. A second bud on the scion is leafing out. I cut back a few of the competing branches.

I plan to check it next week and if is still moving forward, I'll remove more competition.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I think that one is going to make it. Any more progress on the 4 apple scions I sent you?

I have a couple that are still alive, but I now think I lost most to adding the biochar which evidently had way too much N in it. I'll need to check on them this week.
By the way, remember that apple I grafted that was doing great but got broken off. Previous pictures show how I just taped it back in place. Well, it is growing again.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, of the 6 crabapple seedlings I tried to field graft this spring, it appears only one has bonded. Here is the latest picture of the scion:

I've removed some more crabapple branches since the last picture. I left one upper branch to become the new central leader if the domestic apple scion dies. Each week, I plant to remove a few more lower branches forcing more energy exchange with the scion. Here is a picture of the entire tree:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, I thought you might be interested in something we did this spring. I had some of those crabapple that make the tiny worthless apples. We grafted apples to them and they have really taken off. These were big trees, probably 3-4 inches diameter.

Yes, I think top working a crab with domestic apple works well with established trees. My downfall here was that these trees were started from seed last spring and planted in the field last fall from 3 gal RB2s. I was hoping that the root system were strong enough to push the scions. In most cases they were not but this tree was.

Jack I would cut back some of those other limbs now if the scion is growing. At very least tip anything taller than your graft as the tallest growing point will try to become the dominant leader and your scions growth will suffer for it.
Chris

Chris,
I'm trying to do a balancing act. I'm not completely sure the scion has developed enough and I'd like to keep a single a crab branch as the central leader if the scion dies. You can see the one branch that is taller than the scion. I'm afraid to remove it until I'm sure about the scion.
I could remove more lower branches faster if you think that would help. I just didn't want to remove too much foliage on such a young tree. Do you think I could get away with removing more. I'll probably be back at the farm sometime next week.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I'm far from an expert, but I think TC is referring to apical dominance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apical_dominance). For simple guys like me, the top-most bud receives the bulk of the energy to grow.
So, I'd either take out or at a minimum 'tie down' at a 90 degree angle the branch that is extending higher than the bud on your scion that you want to get the bulk of the tree's energy.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, I think you could easily remove the majority of the crab branches below the graft. I remove all of mine when I graft to 1 year old seedlings. There is always plenty of energy left in the root system to push the scion. I agree that you need as much energy as possible going to that scion now. BTW---the scion is going to make it!
good job
todd

Todd,
The thing that worries me is that a bird or animal landed on one of the scions on another tree nearby and broke it off before it had a chance. I don't know any way to protect the scion from this. I'm hesitant to tape or cable tie a piece of bamboo to such a young tree to protect it.
If I leave the one crab branch that seems to be forming the central leader, I could remove the lower branches. It seems there is a consensus that this would help. I'll see what I can do when I get back next week.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

L2L yes that is what I was saying without using the right words:) . You bring up a good point as well you could tie that branch down if you are afraid to remove it. You might want to refrain from pruning a bunch if fire blight is common in your area until you hit a spell of dry weather.
Chris

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I'm far from an expert, but I think TC is referring to apical dominance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apical_dominance). For simple guys like me, the top-most bud receives the bulk of the energy to grow.
So, I'd either take out or at a minimum 'tie down' at a 90 degree angle the branch that is extending higher than the bud on your scion that you want to get the bulk of the tree's energy.

We must have been typing at the same time cause I missed your post until Chris quoted it. Tying it down is a great idea. If the scion doesn't take I'll still have it to form the central leader!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Ok, I'm at the farm today and decided to work on the tree. First, I removed all the branches except one down to the tree tube. Next, I was going to tie down the crabapple branch but I found the weight of the rope was enough to keep it below the top of the scion. Finally, I used the same biodegradable freezer tap to take a piece of bamboo to the seedling to deter a bird from lighting on the scion. Here is the result:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Looks good Jack. Once that scion kicks in some growth, id snip the old crab branch and call it good.

Thanks! I'll check it again later this week.

 

[yoderjac]

WOW! What a difference a little pruning, tying, and a couple of days can make:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Looking really good there. By tying down the nurse branch, you've taken its vigor away. So really a toss up if you want to prune it off this summer or not.
The graft union is still delicate, so make sure it's supported if you get heavy top growth.
Grafting is very cool. :D

 

[yoderjac]

Here are a couple recent pics. I think this one is really taking:

Close up of scion:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I told you that scion took over 2 weeks ago:D
Looks great and is a fast growing scion.
congrats
todd

You were right. After I pruned all but the crabapple branches except the one I tied down, the scion growth really picked up. One out of 6 is not great, but it is better than zero. There rest are still growing well as crabs. I pruned everything below about 3 feet today on the rest of the trees and removed leaves that restarted below the scion in this one.
Unfortunately none of the scions you sent me that I grafted to M111 survived. I don't think it had anything to do with the scions since most leafed out. I think it was the biochar that was overloaded with N since that seemed to kill many other seedlings.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here is an update on my crabapple trees. Let's start with the one successful graft. It is doing very well:

Next, one of the Dolgo crabs I started from seed last spring and planted in the field last fall is actually already trying to produce fruit:

More coming...

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks to Native Hunter who sent me some bud sticks from his great looking crab, I was able to try my hand at T-budding. I tried re-grafting the trees that failed grafting this spring. This was my first attempt.
Here is the tree I started with:

I pruned it back, leaving one branch to form the central leader if the grafts fail. I removed everything for about 6" below it. I then grafted two buds to it from Steve's scions.

Here are pics of the subsequent trees I grafted:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

The one successful graft looks great. Amazing you are getting fruit on that seedling. Must be the air pruning.
Good luck with the buds--look forward to the progress.

That particular tree was unusual. I got way more Siberian crabs that grew from seed than Dolgos. They also grew much faster than the Dolgos with the exception of this one tree. This Dolgo grew faster and was as large as the largest Siberian when planted. It started growing immediately when I planted it last fall before it went dormant.
I could see the root pruning causing fruiting if it was still in a container. For example, I have Jujube trees in the field that are well over 5 years old and have never fruited, yet trees started from root cuttings from these trees fruit on my deck in their first season in the root pruning containers. One professor who specializes in Jujube postulated that when the root system was limited by the containers, it forced the trees into fruiting mode. He also suggested that if I planted these trees in the field that the roots would be released and they would revert to a vegetative state and stop fruiting until they were mature.
I planted them last fall, so I guess I'll find out if he was right this summer.
I'm sure the root pruning containers contributed to the fast growth, but I would think that since it was planted last fall the root system would no longer be limited. I can say I was shocked when I saw it!
Thanks,
Jack