Apple planning phase.... - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Haven't read this entire thread but you will want Black Limbertwig. Possibly the most trouble free and reliable apple I've ever seen.
I'm also loving what I see from Priscilla, but mine is still young. However, not a leaf spot or even a hint of FB so far. Only small crops to date.

Is that different than Black Twig?

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, they are two different varieties. The good thing is that Black Limbertwig is a popular old time apple and easy to find. You can get them almost anywhere they sell vintage apples.

This is what it looks like. Setting a few feet away from big cedar trees.

 

[yoderjac]

Very nice!

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, another old time apple I got from Big Horse Creek Farm that I will recommend is Betsey Deaton. It's a reliable bearer and never touched by FB. In bad CAR years I have seen some pretty bad spotting (no spraying), but it still manages to bear a good crop.
Another one that seems to be touched by nothing out there is Striped June (AKA Margret). But it is so early I doubt you would have interest. It actually drops in June. And, even though the apple are pretty, they don't taste very good - unless you like mealy and sour.
Bevan's Favorite has also shown resistance to disease for me. But my tree is in a location that is too shady. I planted another one in a better spot, but it is still young. I'm thinking that one will be a winner. Another apple near the old Bevan's Favorite gets eat up with FB every year, but the Bevan's has never shown any sign of it. Haven't got many apples from it but the ones I got were great tasting.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm at the farm today. I checked out some of the crabapples I started last spring from seed. They are going gangbusters:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Man, talk about a perfect example of proper protection and weed suppression!

Holy crap! You are at least 5-6 weeks ahead of us! I'm envious.

That one is a Siberian Red. They all look like that. The dolgo crabs are just starting to produce a few leaves.

That's an impressive seedling for sure. Are you planning in grafting the crab or letting it be to see what it produces? My dolgo seedlings are going gangbusters also--just don't know what they will produce but I don't have any plans to graft them at this point.

I plan to graft a few of the Siberian Reds but not all in April as an experiment. I grafted a couple trees to M111 in my grafting class. I ended up with more scions that I think I want to use on the crabs. So, today I'm headed back to the orchard to buy a few more M111s.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I stopped at Virginia Vintage Apples today and picked up some M111 rootstock. I found a few of there trees in full bloom, some with leaves just starting and most with just bud swell. I presume it depends on the variety.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Last night I did some W&T grafting of apples. I grafted 2 Virginia (Hewes) Crabs, one Black Twig, and one Arkansas Black to M111 rootstock and potted them up in 1 gal RB2s. There is no sign yet of bud break on the two I did in grafting class. All are under lights indoors.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Todd,
I received your scions today. A big thanks! I was able to match 2 of the enterprise and one of the liberty to my rootstock. I tried to use a Z-graft on the last one with a mismatch, but I couldn't seem to get it right. I eventually gave up and just did a W&T graft on the last rootstock aligning only one side.
I really appreciate the scions. The apples I grafted at the class a couple weeks ago are just starting to show some bud swell and a little green.
Here are the 4 I grafted tonight:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Glad they arrived quickly. I have done many W&T with only aligning 1 side with very good success. You should be just fine.
Keep me updated
Todd

Best of luck with the grafts Jack.
I have done 2 this year myself and still will do 2 more.
My plans are for 3 golden delicious and 1 d'anjou pears(cause I like them and have the tree already).
I looked at them yesterday and I think the buds are bigger than a week ago, but not warm enough in Ohio to get them going too much!

Grafts look nice Jack, wish much success to you!

 

[yoderjac]

The master grafter in the class I took said that anyone who hasn't cut themselves good while grafting is a novice so we might as well get it over and cut ourselves. Everyone laughed.
I laughed a little less today. I was at the farm and my Siberian red crabs are well leafed out. Some are in bloom. I grafted 6 of them today. I got a surprise on the first tree. I used whip and tongue grafts. I made the scion cuts first and expected the same on the tree. Well, this was my first time doing top work on apples. The actively growing tree is much softer wood than the dormant scion. I ended up with a big cut on my index finger.
The good news is that I got 6 trees grafted with Arkansas Black, Black Twig, and Virginia Hewe's Crab.
I guess time will tell if I'm now an experienced grafter or just a novice grafter with a sliced finger and failed grafts. With all the persimmon grafting I've done, I've never cut myself once.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Glad they arrived quickly. I have done many W&T with only aligning 1 side with very good success. You should be just fine.
Keep me updated
Todd

Best of luck with the grafts Jack.
I have done 2 this year myself and still will do 2 more.
My plans are for 3 golden delicious and 1 d'anjou pears(cause I like them and have the tree already).
I looked at them yesterday and I think the buds are bigger than a week ago, but not warm enough in Ohio to get them going too much!

Are you saying this is the first time you have cut yourself grafting? If so that is some talent. I've lost count on the number of times I have cut myself. You are correct the wood on the growing apple tree is a lot softer than the scion--also much much softer than persimmon (as you now know)
did you take us some pics of your grafts?
hope the finger heals quickly.
todd

If a guy can do more than a dozen or so W/T grafts and not cut their thumb...they must be overly cautious or just plain lucky.

 

[yoderjac]

Yep, I've cut myself in lots of ways. Almost cut my thumb off cleaning a gobbler one spring and ended up in the ER. However, this is the first time I've drawn blood while grafting!
Here is one of the Siberian crabs that I did not graft:

Here are some I grafted:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

A couple more:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I think one of the first apple grafts I did at the grafting class is now far enough along to claim it took:

What do you thin?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I'll say! Looks really healthy.
Are you planning to plant when dormant next fall or are you planning two years in the root maker pot?

I'm not sure yet. I'll definitely keep it in the RM for this summer. I'll make a decision later as to whether to keep it a second season.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

On your crab seedling grafts are you planting on removing all the crab growth under the graft? The reason I am asking is when I graft my seedlings and cut down to about 4" above soil line and graft and remove any growth below the graft. That seems like a lot of energy being stolen from the scion?

I'm intentionally leaving the lower growth for now. First, if the graft doesn't take it will keep the seedling going for a second try. Presuming the scion takes, I plan to remove some of the growth below the scion, but I will leave some strategic branches. I'm doing this for several reasons. First, crab apple branches will be great pollinators. The master grafter told us a story in the grafting class about an orchard that was having an issue with production. When he evaluated it, he decided it was a pollination issue. They sent a crew in and grafted a crabapple branch on each tree and suddenly the orchard production took off. That worked great for a couple years until the dumb pruning crew pruned off all the crabapple branches. They had to do it all over again.
The third reason I intentionally grafted high and will leave lower branches is to see what I get from seed. It could be some of these trees are highly productive or ripen just when I want. If I get a seedling with great characteristics, it becomes a source for future scions to graft on other seedlings.
My general approach to trees is to go for low maintenance. Apples are my highest risk in this area. So, I'm taking an approach that attempts to minimize maintenance. If I don't like the maintenance associated with the grafted varieties, I can simply cut down the domestic portion and top work it with my best seedling scions down the road.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
In the spirit of brainstorming, one challenge with your approach of leaving a low crab apple branch on your domestic cultivar trees is that the crabapple branch will always be under the browse line and thus I'd think you'll have to leave large diameter cages around your apples, which I think is a negative long term.
If leaving a single crabapple tree close enough to your domestic apples isn't an option, one alternative to consider is to graft a crab apple scion to your apple tree above the browse line allowing you to tighten your cages when your apple trees begin producing.
- L2L

I'm really hedging my bets here and trying to leave lots of options. I do plan to leave some trees as full crabs, but my plans are volatile. I'm going to feel my way as I go.
Once the scions take, I'll remove most of the branches below the scion just leaving a few. My guess is that by the time I remove the cages, those branches will be too large and mature to browse, but you could be right.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Gotcha. Best of luck with your grafts. I would say with certainty that your graft from class has taken. Seeing anything on the scions I sent you yet?

None of your scions have shown any signs of taking yet but they were grafted several weeks later. Some of the other grafts I did between the ones in the class and yours are now showing signs of growth but not enough to call it macaroni yet.
Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack I gotta say the way you top worked those trees are something out of a horror flick. LOL! Of all the forums I hang out on and the videos i've seen i've never seen anyone do something like what you did. Should be an interesting experiment.

Yep, it could be a total flop. That is one reason I left lower branches. If the scions don't take, one of them will become the new central leader. I didn't realize they were that ugly.
Most of the videos I've seen are aimed at the backyard orchard, not wildlife.