Apple planning phase.... - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Glad they arrived quickly. I have done many W&T with only aligning 1 side with very good success. You should be just fine.
Keep me updated
Todd

Best of luck with the grafts Jack.
I have done 2 this year myself and still will do 2 more.
My plans are for 3 golden delicious and 1 d'anjou pears(cause I like them and have the tree already).
I looked at them yesterday and I think the buds are bigger than a week ago, but not warm enough in Ohio to get them going too much!

Are you saying this is the first time you have cut yourself grafting? If so that is some talent. I've lost count on the number of times I have cut myself. You are correct the wood on the growing apple tree is a lot softer than the scion--also much much softer than persimmon (as you now know)
did you take us some pics of your grafts?
hope the finger heals quickly.
todd

If it works that would be awesome. To be able to have crabapple flowers at the same time of the apple flowers would almost guarantee pollination--as long as they flower at the same time. My dolgo (which is a great pollinator) blooms way too early for the majority of my other apple trees.
todd

Cleft and bark grafting are about as easy as it gets. I have no doubt in my mind that you could get at least one branch of a crab onto all of your apple trees by bark or cleft grafting.
I top worked 8(ish) generic big box varieties and had 100% success. They were maybe 3 years old with the trunk slightly larger than my thumb. I just cut the trunk off above the lowest branch and grafted! That being said, I've never seen it done on stock this small, so it will be really interesting to see!

I have a Gala apple tree in my backyard that I planted 3 years ago. I have grafted on that Gala tree a Golden Delicious, Granny Smith, and Arkansas Black. The Gala and Golden Delicious parts have flowers right now. The Granny Smith and Arkansas Black branches have not flowered yet. So maybe one year I will have 4 different apples on one tree.
todd

 

[yoderjac]

If it works that would be awesome. To be able to have crabapple flowers at the same time of the apple flowers would almost guarantee pollination--as long as they flower at the same time. My dolgo (which is a great pollinator) blooms way too early for the majority of my other apple trees.
todd

I don't know enough about apples, I'm just learning. I wonder if flowering time is as important with insect pollinated trees like apples compared to chestnuts that are wind pollinated. Pollen is pretty long lived. I'm also not certain how crabapples functionally pollinate apples. Is it the fact that bees are attracted to the early flowering and keep coming back to a good thing and then still have crabapple pollen attached when the other apple trees bloom.
Funny about your Dolgo. If they do need to flower at the same time, I'm probably out of luck. My Siberian crabs they you see in the pictures in this thread in bloom are way ahead of my Dolgo.
Rally,
I used a W&T graft on all the apple grafts so far.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

I'm at the farm today hoping to do some gobbler hunting in the morning. I checked some of the grafts in the pics in the above posts. There are no signs of them taking yet, but it is still early.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't even get worried till about 3 weeks. After 3 weeks I will do a little finger nail test to make sure scion is still alive. After 4 weeks I will usually regraft.

Thanks for the timing. Wasn't sure exactly what to expect with apples.

 

[yoderjac]

I'll be impressed and a bit surprised if those grafts take. There's no reason for them to do so. The trees can live and photosynthesize without those added few inches of "stick" tacked onto the trunks. Kind of like trying to sew another finger onto an already existing finger.

How do folks top work apple trees and get several varieties of apples on one tree. If the only factor involved in grafts taking was a trees "need" of the scion, I don't see how things like budding would work. Yet it obviously does. There must me more too it than that.
I'm certainly no expert when it comes to apples, but I would think that good cambium to cambium contact has more to do with the initial take of a graft than anything else.
Once a graft takes, we have a new ball game. Will the tree want to put significant energy into the scion verses one of the other branches becoming the central leader? That is a valid question, but that is my hedge. If the graft fails, I want one of the branches below the graft to become the central leader.
Presuming any of the grafts do take, I will probably prune some of the lower branches and tie others to avoid competition with the central leader.
You could be right though. This is all new to me and failure could also be due to my poor grafting technique. I think someone already compared them to a "horror show"!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack--I sure hope they take. My only concern (and I do hope I am wrong) is that the root system on these seedling with be strong enough to push the scion to life plus support all the growth under t he scion. My backyard tree that I have 4 varieties on is a 5 year old tree with a very mature root system.
Time will tell.
Good luck
Todd

Good point. I considered that. Since the new growth was already there when I grafted, I thought that after the root system expended energy to push that growth, if I removed it, it would rob the root system of the energy return from the leaves.
You do raise a reasonable concern. These seedlings are only one growing season old. I planted them from 3 gal RB2s last fall. Perhaps I should have look at them more as stooled rootstock and grafted them in early March, but I wanted to take the grafting class first. I was actually quite surprised how quickly they leafed out.
Given they had leafed out as they did, what would you have done?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack--I have grafted a few in the field 1 year seedlings that looked just like your crab seedlings. I cut the seedling down about 6" from the soil line and graft there. I then strip any leaves that may be below the graft. I don't leave any nurse branch for seedlings. I want all energy from that small root system to feed the scion. I don't do any of my field grafts any different then my apple and pear seedlings that I over winter.

So you think that after the leaves have been pushed out, they are consuming more energy from the root system than they are providing it?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

That I don't know Jack but there is a lot of root energy going to all that extra growth. Like I said I hope your technique works--just never seen it done that way. We should know in a couple weeks!
todd

If I had gotten to them early enough, my graft would have leafed out. When other growth began, I could have pinched it off before it developed except the 1 or 2 branches I wanted.
Once they were already leafed out, I had a dilemma. When we try to kill stumps, we let them sucker and leaf out because they expend a lot of energy doing it. We then spray them with herbicides to deprive them of the return energy from the leaves.
So, my dilemma was that if I remove the growth before grafting, I'd be acting the same as we do with a herbicide. You are right, time will tell if this works, but you guys have me nervous now.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I've left "nurse branches," left tons of smaller limbs on highly branched trees, and grafted to trees where all other branches have been pruned off. I've had success (and failures) with each method. Sometimes we over think these things. Obviously, when top working trees to add multiple varieties, you will be leaving branches. I added a couple of scions from some of my "heritage" trees to a couple of my trees a couple of weeks ago, and they are pushing buds now. I also bud grafted 5 limbs for fun, and they are starting to swell. A couple of my pears have been top worked over the past couple of years, and flowered out this season a week earlier than the parent tree. Now, as to preference, I think that I get a slightly higher take when grafting to trees or rootstock without competing branches.

Doc,
I'm sure you are right with established trees with established roots. Todd's concern is that these are seedlings I planted last fall. Have you left nurse branches when grafting seedlings like this? I guess I'll know the answer in a few weeks.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Yep. They recommended it in my one and only grafting class several years ago. Still, I like removing all competition, but don't find it to be essential.

Good to hear!

 

[yoderjac]

Well, a buzzard is trying to take up residence in one of my box blinds, so I was out working on it today. It happens to be near two of the crabapples I grafted. There is still no sign of any I've seen this week taking, but one is completely gone. I'm presuming a bird tried to perch on it or something.

 

[yoderjac]

can't really control a bird landing on a fresh graft--just one of the risks when grafting in the field.
I have learned that grafting inside a tree tube leads to high failure. Last year I grafted about 10 two year old seedlings that were all started in 18's and then planted in the field and tubed. They all survived and by their 2nd year they were a good 4 to 5 foot tall with a caliper larger than a pencil. I removed the tube and grafted them all with either cleft or W&T. After I grafted the tree tube was replaced. All grafts were done about 4 to 6" from the ground. All grafts took and in a month all grafts had a good 6" of growth. Within a month later all died but two. I did the same on a couple persimmons--grafted and then tubed the graft--these died also. I don't know how to explain it but the grafts just didn't survive inside the tube. All the trees sent up new growth below the graft after the scion died. I will never graft again inside a tube.
Hopefully the scions are just a little slow to get going since a lot of the E is feeding all the growth below the scion.
good luck
todd

For my persimmon grafts on larger trees, I simply tie wrap a piece of bamboo to the rootstock that is taller than the scion. Birds land ion it instead. You can't really do that with a young apple like this, so you are right, just chalk it up to normal losses. I'm glade I left the nurse branches. It will still grow well as a crabapple tree and I can try again next year.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Have any of those scions that I sent you showed life yet?

Nope. The ones I got from the local orchard and grafted to M111 all took except one. That one leafed out then wilted. I presume it is toast.
None that I grafted to the year old crabapple seedlings have shown signs of life yet.
The scions I got from you that I grafted to M111 have not shown signs of life either.
I'm hoping it is still early....Fingers Crossed...
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Todd,
I was checking the apple seedlings today on my deck. I noticed a speck of green on the buds of two you sent me, one is Liberty and the other Enterprise. I still have a couple more with no signs yet. These are very early and not an indication of taking, but at least it shows they are not dead.
I believe I grafted yours after the crabs at the farm. So, if none of the crabs I grafted at the farm show signs of life this week, I'll presume they are all toast and the experiment failed.
If that is the case, here is my plan for next time. I'll get crab apple seeds and plant more seedlings. I'll grow them out in RB2s going from 18s, to 1 gal to 3 gal in one season. I'll over winter them in my cold room. In March of the following spring, I'll take them out and dormant graft them just as I would root stock. I'll put them under lights until it is warm enough to take them outside. I'll take them to the farm in the fall of that year and plant them.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Lost my best apple graft today. It was in a 3 gal RB2 and the green growth just snapped off. I presume a bird tried to land on it or something.

 

[yoderjac]

Don't call it a loss. If there are other buds on the scion that didn't pop anything out then one of those dormant buds might pop something out. You may even get some new growth where the original one is. Many times I will only get one bud actually produce on the scion and then months later a dormant bud will pop out a little branch.

Thanks. I'll just wait an watch. It really was by far my best one.

 

[yoderjac]

as long as the graft union is still intact then the scion is getting nutrients and should pop out some growth.
todd

The graft union looks solid. The green sprout was probably 4"+ above the scion. I presume a bird tried to light on the green sprout, not the scion itself.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, here is a crabapple I grafted over to Liberty four growing seasons ago. I picked a lot of fruit from this tree last year and this year it is loaded up.
The graft union... Smaller side branches below the larger graft were grafted individually. Bark or cleft. I don't remember.
MISSING PIC

This is the tree. I pruned for height control this winter.
MISSING PIC

I've had great success bark grafting crabapples. and have done some whip and tongue on suckers after cutting down the tree.
Good luck!

 

[yoderjac]

A couple of them have started but others are probably failures. I'm at the farm now. When I get back home in the next couple days, I'll take a look and post the details.
Thanks,
Jack

Todd,
For reference, here are a couple that I grafted in and immediately after my class:

One of yours got a small leaf that wilted. I think it is toast. Two of them have not shown any life. Here is one that seems to be starting finally:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Lost my best apple graft today. It was in a 3 gal RB2 and the green growth just snapped off. I presume a bird tried to land on it or something.

Well, it has been 6 days and the broken top is still green and it may be growing. So I decided to try a repair with electrical tape:
Before:

After:

Thanks,
Jack