Another brassica fail

[Scott]

In Northeast PA here and I wanted to get thoughts on if I am just wasting my time trying to make brassicas work in one of my plots. I put 3 food plots in brassica this year (two 1/4 acre kills plots and one larger acre and a half plot on a ROW). My small 1/4 plots do what I expect them to. They are slightly limited due to partial sunlight and the fact that my deer browse them early and eventually stunt their growth because of their size, but I am ok with it because I layer cereal grains on top.

My larger plot is on a gas line ROW. The area is extremely rocky and the soil is thin in most places and nonexistent in certain areas. I have attached pictures from a few years ago when we first planted it.
For planting, I terminated existing clover, weeds, and winter rye on July 4th. Planted two weeks later by broadcasting and dragging with a chain harrow (turnips & rape with a little radish). We got great rain (probably too much) over the next few weeks. I came back week 3 and broadcast 100# of uryea and 100# of winter rye. At the time, I had good germination in terms of coverage, but the growth itself was only about 3" tall. As of this weekend, it's 3-4" tall. I am inclined to think that this ground just can't hold enough moisture or let the roots grow to produce a solid brassica, but I am a beginner to all this. I am surrounded by organic hay/grazing pastures with a lot of clover and have wanted to establish something different here that will be a reason for the deer to come to this plot vs the larger pastures.

I did get a soil test. PH is 6.6 (average across the plot). It has been that way for 3 years and I spread about 750lbs on it every year to maintain.

 

[bueller]

IMO, you overseeded the winter rye into the brassicas a couple weeks to early. Brassicas do not like competition. You will have a good fall plot still, the brassicas just aren't going to put on much more growth.

 

[eclipseman]

In Northeast PA here and I wanted to get thoughts on if I am just wasting my time trying to make brassicas work in one of my plots. I put 3 food plots in brassica this year (two 1/4 acre kills plots and one larger acre and a half plot on a ROW). My small 1/4 plots do what I expect them to. They are slightly limited due to partial sunlight and the fact that my deer browse them early and eventually stunt their growth because of their size, but I am ok with it because I layer cereal grains on top.

My larger plot is on a gas line ROW. The area is extremely rocky and the soil is thin in most places and nonexistent in certain areas. I have attached pictures from a few years ago when we first planted it.
For planting, I terminated existing clover, weeds, and winter rye on July 4th. Planted two weeks later by broadcasting and dragging with a chain harrow (turnips & rape with a little radish). We got great rain (probably too much) over the next few weeks. I came back week 3 and broadcast 100# of uryea and 100# of winter rye. At the time, I had good germination in terms of coverage, but the growth itself was only about 3" tall. As of this weekend, it's 3-4" tall. I am inclined to think that this ground just can't hold enough moisture or let the roots grow to produce a solid brassica, but I am a beginner to all this. I am surrounded by organic hay/grazing pastures with a lot of clover and have wanted to establish something different here that will be a reason for the deer to come to this plot vs the larger pastures.

I did get a soil test. PH is 6.6 (average across the plot). It has been that way for 3 years and I spread about 750lbs on it every year to maintain.

I am 100% not an expert at this yet and myself am having some brassica worries but I have done tons of reading on the subject. If you have not so great soil and wish to eventually grow brassica then you may want to start looking into the Throw and Mow type methods. These methods actually help build your soil into much better soil (it takes a couple years though) even on rocky type soils! Basically what you do is grow something like a cereal grains or buckwheat. Then you would spray the grains/buckwheat with glyphosate and 2 weeks later you would broadcast your brassica and then you either mow the rye over top the brassica seed or you can even roll it over with a roller. This covers the seed and aids in germination. Then you keep doing that type of planting over and over again and over a few years the mowed/rolled grains/buckwheat starts decaying into soil!

 

[Scott]

I am 100% not an expert at this yet and myself am having some brassica worries but I have done tons of reading on the subject. If you have not so great soil and wish to eventually grow brassica then you may want to start looking into the Throw and Mow type methods. These methods actually help build your soil into much better soil (it takes a couple years though) even on rocky type soils! Basically what you do is grow something like a cereal grains or buckwheat. Then you would spray the grains/buckwheat with glyphosate and 2 weeks later you would broadcast your brassica and then you either mow the rye over top the brassica seed or you can even roll it over with a roller. This covers the seed and aids in germination. Then you keep doing that type of planting over and over again and over a few years the mowed/rolled grains/buckwheat starts decaying into soil!

This was my first year doing a modified version of it on my smaller plots which I usually tilled. (I killed and dragged versus mowing). Results were great and much easier. I am 75% sure that I am probably going to start on a few year run of just trying to build soil on this plot next year. I am still trying to read through the throw and mow thread to see if I can find really what I think would work for me. Specifically, I can't use buckwheat as a spring planting because my deer destroy buckwheat. I am trying to understand if winter rye will stand until an august plant date since I have always mowed it in June. If not, I need to figure out what I should be doing.

 

[scott44]

Could your deer have kept your brassicas in check? I also have the same with them eating buckwheat so not much thatch.

 

[yoderjac]

What rates did you use when you originally planted the brassica?

 

[Tap]

I would not have killed the clover. I think I would have broadcast the brassica just before spraying with a clover safe herbicide. You would still have clover adding N that brassica likes.
FWIW, Ive had brassica grow in basically no soil. A few years ago, my order of Winfred brassica was delivered and seed was spilling out of the box as the UPS man carried it to my door. The seed got into the relief cuts of my cement sidewalk. The winfred grew in the cement. I also have a pile of asphalt road millings beside my driveway, it has a little dirt mixed in, but very little dirt. I shook out my seeder as I walked back to the house after spreading brassica varieties...I must have done it at that milling pile because I had brassica growing out of it...until the deer found it.

 

[Scott]

Could your deer have kept your brassicas in check? I also have the same with them eating buckwheat so not much thatch.

My deer do keep my brassica plots in check in general, but it seems to happen more around end of September the last two years. I didn't see any browse on the leaves.

What rates did you use when you originally planted the brassica?

4# turnip 3# rape 2# radish. Still struggling to figure out proper seeding rates using throw and mow type operations.

I would not have killed the clover. I think I would have broadcast the brassica just before spraying with a clover safe herbicide. You would still have clover adding N that brassica likes.
FWIW, Ive had brassica grow in basically no soil. A few years ago, my order of Winfred brassica was delivered and seed was spilling out of the box as the UPS man carried it to my door. The seed got into the relief cuts of my cement sidewalk. The winfred grew in the cement. I also have a pile of asphalt road millings beside my driveway, it has a little dirt mixed in, but very little dirt. I shook out my seeder as I walked back to the house after spreading brassica varieties...I must have done it at that milling pile because I had brassica growing out of it...until the deer found it.

This is why I feel like doing something wrong. My brassicas do well in the wet areas of my food plots. (This particular plot has no wet spots)

 

[yoderjac]

In a monoculture of brassica, I'd shoot too keep the total around 5 lbs/ac. In a mix (which is what you are creating when you add WR), I want to reduce the brassica component down to around 2 lbs/ac. I've started brassica early like that and followed it with WR several weeks later, but again you need to keep the brassica component low. I also like to include a legume in the mix. In my area, I like crimson clover. I always include a legume with N seeking crops like brassica and I keep the rates low.

If you don't you overload the field. In a heavily seeded brassica plot, all the plants want the same resources at the same time and are competing with each other for them. When we select compatible crops and plant a mix, the different crops are using different resources at different times. Sure, they do share sun and water, but the legumes aren't consuming much if any N from the soil and when they die they release N. When you plant heavy rates of brassica you are forced to fertilize the field with a lot of N and even then they are competing for other resources.

Traditional farming is a high input, high yield operation and eventually the soil wears out. Managing for deer is quite different. High yield is not our objective. Deer are browsers and benefit from a wide variety of plants including what for a farmer would be a weed. We don't need high yields to support deer. There are some differences between those doing QDM on scale trying to improve the health of the local herd and those planting for hunting attraction, but in both cases, high yield is not the key. The key is producing high quality food at just the right time. In a QDM sense, the "right time" is when nature is stingy in what it offers. For hunting attraction, the "right time" is having something peaking at key times during the hunting season when you plan to hunt.

Don't try to push as much fertilizer into the ground as possible and push for as much yield as possible. Instead, look toward long-term sustainability. Use sustainable techniques that preserve soil health, plant reasonable rates of complementary mixes that your soil can support. Lime as needed to obtain and keep a good pH so crops can better utilize the nutrients available. Surface broadcast it and be patient selecting crops that can tolerate poor pH and infertile soil for the first few years rather than tilling it in for fast results. Fertilize judiciously. Focus on P and K rather than N. Bank N through wise use of legume crops.

It takes time to get this all right so don't get discouraged. We have all made the same mistakes (and likely a lot more) than you are making now. Regardless of what you could have done, you plot will attract deer and be successful and make your hunting more fun!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Scott]

In a monoculture of brassica, I'd shoot too keep the total around 5 lbs/ac. In a mix (which is what you are creating when you add WR), I want to reduce the brassica component down to around 2 lbs/ac. I've started brassica early like that and followed it with WR several weeks later, but again you need to keep the brassica component low. I also like to include a legume in the mix. In my area, I like crimson clover. I always include a legume with N seeking crops like brassica and I keep the rates low.

I

So in your example, are you spreading 2lbs/ac before spreading the winter rye? Are you spreading the clover with the rye? I tried crimson clover for the first time this year and got terrible germination. not sure what happened.

I think I am going to have to practice to figure out how to spread 2lbs/ac.

 

[scott44]

I plant 6-8 #/acre brassica mix ( PTT, DER, Kale and Radishes ) and over seed with rye if I have any bare spots. I am looking for late fall and winter production out of these brassicas, I also have cereal grains in the same plot in strips. Mixing other seed with my brassicas I don't get the bulb production I'm looking for.

 

[yoderjac]

So in your example, are you spreading 2lbs/ac before spreading the winter rye? Are you spreading the clover with the rye? I tried crimson clover for the first time this year and got terrible germination. not sure what happened.

I think I am going to have to practice to figure out how to spread 2lbs/ac.

When I have done it, I typically broadcast a cover crop into standing RR soybeans as they yellow. This means the ground under the beans is very clean and I get good seed/soil contact. Winter Rye is most attractive to deer when it is young and supple. I use PTT as my brassica component because it gives me late winter coverage in my area.

So, I would broadcast the PTT into my standing beans as soon as I could. In some years I even bushhogged lanes through the beans when they are green in mid to late August. I when then walk through those lanes and broadcast PTT at about 2 lbs/ac. This gives times for tubers to grow for winter. I would do so with rain in the forecast. The PTT would germinate and just get going as the soybean leaves began to yellow in September. At that time I would wait for rain in the forecast and broadcast the WR and CC components. This worked out pretty well for me. Keep in mind that I'm in zone 7a so you may have different considerations.

For example, CC acts as a reseeding annual down here but I doubt if it does in 5b. You may be better off with a different legume. My CC bounces back in the spring and that is when it shines and why I use it.

As for spreading small amounts of seed, it can be challenging. One method I've used when spreading it alone is to use a chest mount Solo spreader. You have very fine adjustment with it. I set it very low so seeds are just barely coming out and go over the field twice, opening it a bit more for the second pass after seeing how much seed I put out the first pass.

This year, I did one field early and just planted everything (it was not in soybeans) in late August. Other fields I had were in buckwheat. I did not bother spreading my brassica component early in those. I used a tractor mount PTO spreader. I measured out all the seed first. I then added the WR to the spreader in 25 lb increments and followed each with a portion of my small seed (PTT and CC). After each 2 increments (50 lbs) I would reach in and mix the seed with my arms and hands. I got reasonable coverage of the small seed this way. It is different mixing it yourself at the last minute because the small seed doesn't have time to settle before your spread it like it can if you buy pre-mixed seed.

I'm not suggesting my methods in 7a are the right fit for you, simply that I find brassica especially sensitive to high seeding rates. Clover is pretty forgiving of high rates and WR is very forgiving of high rates.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Not that you didnt have enough input, but I will throw mine out there as well.

I plant my ppt, GHR, at about 5-7 pounds per acre(which is usually on the heavy side), I plant it the first 2 weeks of July, and wait until the plants are about 4-6 inches tall, then toss on some about 75 pounds of urea per acre. Shortly after I apply the urea (1-2 weeks) the deer start to hammer it and keep it mowed down, but eventually (acorn drop) they leave it alone, and it puts on good growth, and makes bulbs. Labor day weekend, I will usually apply 100 pounds of winter rye, or a mixture of 100 pounds of cereal mix. With that, I have a decent crop to feed the deer from about the middle of Aug-June, and get many pictures of deer in there the entire time.

 

[yoderjac]

I plant 6-8 #/acre brassica mix ( PTT, DER, Kale and Radishes ) and over seed with rye if I have any bare spots. I am looking for late fall and winter production out of these brassicas, I also have cereal grains in the same plot in strips. Mixing other seed with my brassicas I don't get the bulb production I'm looking for.

If find bulb production is more a function of how early I plant it rather than the seed I mix it with. Of course, heavier rates plus companion seed could reduce tuber development.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tap]

2 questions come to my mind...

1) Two of your three varieties are bulb/tuber producers. Even though radish are often planted to break hard pan, they do need at least some level of top soil to develop the tuber. I would assume that turnip would also need a little more soil to survive. I wonder if you would have gotten better top growth if you went with more of a forage style brassica which has a finer root system which may penetrate through the cracks and fissures in your rocky soil. I can't imagine a radish plant would grow well in the (lack of) soil conditions that you described.

2) I've had substantial brassica loss to insects. Maybe that's part, or most of your problem.

And you said your deer usage usually starts in later September. IME, if your deer do indeed like brassica (some herds won't eat it) and your deer are utilizing it before the freezes come, then it will get progressively harder hit and earlier each year.
I can't really grow a nice brassica plot any more...my deer won't let it get established. I've experiment planted different varieties all the way from frost seeding, and all the way to a September planting. My deer have learned to eat it as it sprouts. It's hard to find a mature brassica in any of my plots...either pure brassica plots or when they are hidden among clover, my deer find it and eat it... early and often.

 

[yoderjac]

Not that you didnt have enough input, but I will throw mine out there as well.

I plant my ppt, GHR, at about 5-7 pounds per acre(which is usually on the heavy side), I plant it the first 2 weeks of July, and wait until the plants are about 4-6 inches tall, then toss on some about 75 pounds of urea per acre. Shortly after I apply the urea (1-2 weeks) the deer start to hammer it and keep it mowed down, but eventually (acorn drop) they leave it alone, and it puts on good growth, and makes bulbs. Labor day weekend, I will usually apply 100 pounds of winter rye, or a mixture of 100 pounds of cereal mix. With that, I have a decent crop to feed the deer from about the middle of Aug-June, and get many pictures of deer in there the entire time.

That is another good point. We often use "brassica" (mustard family) as an overarching term, but not all brassica is the same. For example PTT seeds are tiny and dense. GHR seeds are larger and less dense There are a lot more plants in a pound of PTT than there are in a pound of GHR. You can go heavier on GHR than you can on a small seeded brassica like PTT.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Scott]

2 questions come to my mind...

1) Two of your three varieties are bulb/tuber producers. Even though radish are often planted to break hard pan, they do need at least some level of top soil to develop the tuber. I would assume that turnip would also need a little more soil to survive. I wonder if you would have gotten better top growth if you went with more of a forage style brassica which has a finer root system which may penetrate through the cracks and fissures in your rocky soil. I can't imagine a radish plant would grow well in the (lack of) soil conditions that you described.

2) I've had substantial brassica loss to insects. Maybe that's part, or most of your problem.

And you said your deer usage usually starts in later September. IME, if your deer do indeed like brassica (some herds won't eat it) and your deer are utilizing it before the freezes come, then it will get progressively harder hit and earlier each year.
I can't really grow a nice brassica plot any more...my deer won't let it get established. I've experiment planted different varieties all the way from frost seeding, and all the way to a September planting. My deer have learned to eat it as it sprouts. It's hard to find a mature brassica in any of my plots...either pure brassica plots or when they are hidden among clover, my deer find it and eat it... early and often.

I was thinking about this for next year as well. The way I came up with my mix was LC's brassica mix and reduced the radish because I thought that it would never be able to develop a root. (The ground is basically shale). One of the things I have gone back and forth on was to use Kale and rape next year.

 

[yoderjac]

I was thinking about this for next year as well. The way I came up with my mix was LC's brassica mix and reduced the radish because I thought that it would never be able to develop a root. (The ground is basically shale). One of the things I have gone back and forth on was to use Kale and rape next year.

I think in a situation like that I might focus more on building OM from the top down and let the deer food be a byproduct.

 

[Tap]

I was thinking about this for next year as well. The way I came up with my mix was LC's brassica mix and reduced the radish because I thought that it would never be able to develop a root. (The ground is basically shale). One of the things I have gone back and forth on was to use Kale and rape next year.

I think in a situation like that I might focus more on building OM from the top down and let the deer food be a byproduct.

Agree.
Sometimes we plotters get in our minds something inappropriate for the conditions. Whether its soil quality, moisture, sunlight, weed issues, herd density or growing zone...we don't always plant what's best for a long term plan. We get tunnel vision and try to force a square peg in a round hole.
Regardless, our number 1 concern should be soil health, soil development and soil protection. After that is accomplished, every thing else becomes easier and of higher quality.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Scott]

Agree.
Sometimes we plotters get in our minds something inappropriate for the conditions. Whether its soil quality, moisture, sunlight, weed issues, herd density or growing zone...we don't always plant what's best for a long term plan. We get tunnel vision and try to force a square peg in a round hole.
Regardless, our number 1 concern should be soil health, soil development and soil protection. After that is accomplished, every thing else becomes easier and of higher quality.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Point very well taken which was sort of the reason I started this post because I felt like I was at the point where I may just need to work on building soil for a few years before trying to do anything. I am probably going to start another thread about my situation. I've tried not to be the 158th person to start a thread on throw and mow and have been reading the thread page by page. I have a few things that are specific to me that I am just having a hard time getting my head around.