NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
I have never tried growing any persimmon Tim so I can not help.
Acorn/Chestnut/Other indoor growing
- Thread starter John-W-WI
- Start date
I have never tried growing any persimmon Tim so I can not help.
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
I would say those are baby lupines. Are they natives or the non-native European "sweet blue lupine" they plant in the south for pasture?Started these about two weeks from collected seed. Hope this helps with seeing something coming to life rather than going to sleep for the season. ;)
Who is going to guess this one?:
Hints: Very cold tolerant, legume, prefers alpine meadow type summers. Reseeds itself very well. I place them here and there up North. Who knows it?..
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
I grew some persimmons from seed last year in Rootmaker Express 18s. I started them pretty late, May or June, after I had gotten my other stuff done. None had germinated in the fridge. I brought them out to room temp and kept moist with a paper towel under some. I put into the tray as they germinated. I got about a full tray but then they rest got moldy before germinating and I tossed the rest. I started them inside under fluorescent lights and moved outside when the seed came off and they looked strong enough to go outside. I planted them from the RM 18s in October. We'll see how well they wake up this spring.
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
I have about about 2.5 trays of Rootmaker 18s with chinese chestnuts. The first dozen were planted a little more than a month ago. Those have done pretty well. A few never got good top growth or sent up multiple weak shoots. I just tossed those. A couple weeks after the first batch, I started another couple trays. Those have not done well. I always struggle with whether I am watering too much, too little or sometimes alternating between those. I think put (really packed) in too much media and then kept them over watered. A bunch were dead where the taproot entered the media. I dumped any of those and started over with a fresh tray of chestnuts. I have another gallon ziplock bag that is just starting to germinate and 3-4 bags that have not germinated yet. I hope to have some still available to direct seed in May rather than start all in rootmakers. My 7 columnar apple seedlings still look good. None of the other 2 columnar tree seeds have germinated but they've spent less time stratifying. I have a 20-40 paw paw seeds too. I think I'll direct seed them in May and hope for the best.
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
Bingo! You are good and got it. I like them for a number of reasons and they collect a heavy dew into a large droplet that seems to be floating on each leaf.
Well, I would have to lean towards non-native European. More than 10 years ago we started some Russell lupines at home from seeds. They flourished (or maybe even became prolific to the point of semi-invasive) and then naturalized. I collect seeds from these, germinate them and plant up north.
Do you have some native perennis around you? I need to go find some of these in the wild.
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
Look up Karner Blue butterfly and the Necedah National Wildlife Refuge. I grew up 6 miles from the place and during the fall in my younger years I spent more time up there hunting waterfowl, deer, turkeys, grouse than I did at home. They are the poster boys for Lupinus perennis. The Refuge has it growing in darn near every opening. The soils in that whole area are about perfect for it. We had some on our property, but never purposely went out of our way to propagate lupines.
tinytim
5 year old buck +
thanks for the pointers, I took the first couple bags of persimmon seeds out of the fridge yesterday, washed each individually, the wet vermiculite wanted to stick onto them, and put them into wet paper towel in a tray at room temperature. I stratified for 75 days, none had germinated in the fridge but most had swelled quite a bit, I think that is a good sign. As they germinate I will put them into cells and hope for the best, they will be under fluorescent lights in the basement. I have a prepared garden bed that I will transplant them into and grow them on for a year or two, before I set them out in the woods.
Northpotter, I have a bunch of wild collected lupine seeds here if you'd like some. They grow all over out here. If you want to message me an address I can drop them in the mail.
Northpotter, I have a bunch of wild collected lupine seeds here if you'd like some. They grow all over out here. If you want to message me an address I can drop them in the mail.
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
They look good. I don't know permission but I imagine that the swelling is a good sign. Never germinated persimmon but for my wild American chestnuts I get better germination with 90+ days of stratification. If i dont have radicle germination during stratification, then similar to you I keep my wild American chestnuts in a transparent bag with moist moss in the unheated basement next to a south facing window for 1-2 weeks after removing from stratification. The sun causes a daily warmup to 65+ and then nightly cool down to about 50 seems to give the signal that is 'time to transition' to radicle push out. For me this low temperature daily fluctuation and the suns various ray energy seems to really promote radicle development. Temperature, photoperiod and even non-visible light spectrum may play a role in radicle push out. Even after I place them in cells under lights, I don't add auxiliary heat for another week or so. I don't know how this may translate into persimmon but maybe it will give you some ideas. My $0.02.
I would very much like some wild lupine seeds. Many thanks. I will PM you.
Hybrid American chestnuts.
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chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
I have had many of my chestnuts germinate in the fridge. They have been stratifying since collected in September or October. I have been inspecting then every week or two since Januuary, tossing any that show mold and separating those that have germinated. I started in pots if the radical is growing but still storing in fridge if the husk has just split open. I'd like to direct seed any that will wait in May.
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
Sorry, I don't quite follow you. I don't understand "stuck in the shell". Could you explain more or post a photo or two? For me, the major cause of rotting once OUTSIDE of stratification is too much water and heat. It they are turning black and rotting in the fridge, for me that is different. That problem has usually been a function of the nut itself...cracked shell, weevils, etc.
Also, do you have a photo of the parent tree from which you collected your 11 American Chestnuts?
By stuck in the the shell, I mean....they germinate, send out the tap root, and when the apical hook begins to push up from the shell...it gets stuck and then the stem rots at the shell junction (presumably because the cotyledons are trying to expand but cannot). I have one right now that the hook pushed up and the stem is straightening, but it is just lifting the nut out of/off the soil mix....the plant is not emerging at all.
The shells are not splitting at all like the acorns that have basically split in two, which helps the hook pull the cotyledons from the shell. Only happening on the Chestnuts too.
I pulled all of these out of the fridge after the radicle had emerged. I potted them is the mix, and left them for a few days at just cool room temperature (not under the lights where it is warmer). So not soaking wet, not hot, nothing rotting.
No pictures right now of the seeds in question. And none of the tree....it is 2.5 hours away from my house.
What will pictures of the tree tell you?
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
Hmmm, I just don't have those problems. My apical hooks/meristems don't get stuck. IIRC, on Chestnuts the hooks/meristems originate from the radicle and not the nut shell. The radicle divides once outside of the shell and the meristem generates from the radicle and not the shell. A gap is created in the divided radicle for the hook/meristem to grow through. It seems you are saying the radicle gap is constricting the apical hook to the point where it gets stuck and dies. I am off today and grabbed a quick photo showing the radicle split and meristem development.
Seems like you did things to prevent rot. Not quite sure the shell needs to split more than just enough for radicle emergence. But the radicle needs to divide wide enough for meristem to get through.
Pictures of parent tree - I just enjoy seeing photos of wild American chestnuts, that is all.
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The plumule (stem and beginning of first leaves) is inside the shell still...see how in your picture the first leaves pulled out from the point of the seed coat? Mine are getting stuck and not pulling out. The hypocotyl and the apical hook elongate and pull them out...Chestnuts are hypogeal, where the cotyledons remain in the ground and do not come up and out of the ground with the stem (which is Epigeal).
I wonder if planting at the surface level is an issue, where the apical hook doesn't have a place to pull from....since the seed is not being held in place by the soil? I pulled the rest of my chestnuts out of the freezer and will be replanting. I will put them below the surface and see.
Or maybe the seeds themselves just don't have enough oomph to survive germination...a result of pollination or other tree fitness?
I wonder if planting at the surface level is an issue, where the apical hook doesn't have a place to pull from....since the seed is not being held in place by the soil? I pulled the rest of my chestnuts out of the freezer and will be replanting. I will put them below the surface and see.
Or maybe the seeds themselves just don't have enough oomph to survive germination...a result of pollination or other tree fitness?
NorthPotter
5 year old buck +
With that information I now understand what is occurring. I don't have those problems so my help ends here.
IMO, The hypogeal diagram is confusing. The epicotyl develops from the radicle and is pulled out of the cotyledon, unlike the diagram shows. But thanks for sharing.
I stratify mine in the refrigerator. Storing them in the freezer is not something I have tried,...unless you meant refrigerator.
I had the radicles popping out in the fridge, so wen I ran out of spaces in the RM-18s, I put the rest of the Am Chesnuts in the freezer to slow development even further....I plan to direct sow whatever I have left for nuts...but May is a long time off from early Feb when things started germinating on. Just hoping to get them to at least April which is the earliest I can plant out.
Here is the same one in the 2nd picture above...just 3 days later. Rotted old stem, with a new one sprouting from beneath it...Nature ain't one to just give up!
And the other one that had lifted the whole seed? Well, that one fully emerged out, seems no worse for the difficulty and wear in its struggle to do so.
So, I'm now at 70%....not sure if the other 3 that failed, will survive.
And the other one that had lifted the whole seed? Well, that one fully emerged out, seems no worse for the difficulty and wear in its struggle to do so.
So, I'm now at 70%....not sure if the other 3 that failed, will survive.
