A story of frustration, and a less than awesome solution

[S.T.Fanatic]

My wife just says "no more money" when she wants me in the house! Lol

Wish I had that problem


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[S.T.Fanatic]

I learned my lesson this fall at my house...i was checking my camera above my plot everyday and kept seeing less and less deer and almost no bucks...then i started letting them soak for 3-5 days at a time and only checking them with rain in the near future and boom i had far more sightings and more bucks too! i will probably go back to checking it daily once the season ends though (just too much fun to see whats around)

My uncle does the same. He has been running two trail cameras all fall and I don’t think he has a single daylight picture


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[S.T.Fanatic]

Honestly I kinda thought the 90+8 to equal 98, but that since 90 can't even consider it, it's a non issue. If most guys can't afford something, they're probably against it regardless of reasons. I can't afford a lamborghini, and I can say I'm against my kids buying one as well. Doesn't make it right or wrong. But it wouldn't be a financially wise decision. Baker has now taken his fence and introduced kiko goats and possibly a cattle herd. Does that change anything for the antis? He's running a business and paying taxes (hopefully) and I don't think he cares what people think about his hunting endeavors.

Nor should he.


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[SwampCat]

I agree, there is a point at which a high fenced property would fall from the description of being “fair chase” - but I dont know what that acreage would be. My across the road neighbor has 1400 acres under high fence. I have been on his place a time or two, and his deer are definitely wilder than mine. I believe that is a result of me living on my property and being an everyday visitor among “my” deer, as opposed to him not living there and being an intermittent visitor. My deer are used to human activity - everyday. At most, once a week on his place.

My personal opinion is that a high fenced area with sufficient acreage, provides the pinnacle of wildlife management opportunity. For a true wildlife manager, where harvesting wildlife is of secondary concern, it allows for the true expression of what your efforts provide. I know there are many aspects of wildlife management, and on my place, unfortunately, baiting to help keep “my deer” off my neighbors place is one of those aspects. In my mind, wildlife management in its truest form is the application of prescriptions to grow the biggest, healthiest deer you can while improving the natural habitat and providing beneficial supplements along with that effort. For many of us, our pinnacle of succes is seeing the rare buck that escaped harvest by the neighbors until he is 5 years old - not that we improved the sex ratios, fawn recruitment, body weights, and antler quality. There are too many outside influences for most of us to overcome. Most of us will never experience the end result all of our management efforts.

 

[Baker]

I agree, there is a point at which a high fenced property would fall from the description of being “fair chase” - but I dont know what that acreage would be. My across the road neighbor has 1400 acres under high fence. I have been on his place a time or two, and his deer are definitely wilder than mine. I believe that is a result of me living on my property and being an everyday visitor among “my” deer, as opposed to him not living there and being an intermittent visitor. My deer are used to human activity - everyday. At most, once a week on his place.

My personal opinion is that a high fenced area with sufficient acreage, provides the pinnacle of wildlife management opportunity. For a true wildlife manager, where harvesting wildlife is of secondary concern, it allows for the true expression of what your efforts provide. I know there are many aspects of wildlife management, and on my place, unfortunately, baiting to help keep “my deer” off my neighbors place is one of those aspects. In my mind, wildlife management in its truest form is the application of prescriptions to grow the biggest, healthiest deer you can while improving the natural habitat and providing beneficial supplements along with that effort. For many of us, our pinnacle of succes is seeing the rare buck that escaped harvest by the neighbors until he is 5 years old - not that we improved the sex ratios, fawn recruitment, body weights, and antler quality. There are too many outside influences for most of us to overcome. Most of us will never experience the end result all of our management efforts.

Well said. Last thought for the evening as I'm tired.

I'm far more interested in the health and well being of the deer than I am of the emotions and opinions of others. The opportunity to create that outcome is a dream come true after passionately being involved with wildlife my entire life studying under the best in the business.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

A total of 2500 acres is a nice chunk of ground. I don't think it would be a case of "shooting fish in a barrel" type deer hunting with that much acreage. I understand the frustration of doing a bunch of habitat improvements / food plotting & having neighbors shoot smaller bucks that we'd like to see mature into studs. Fencing cost is prohibitive for most folks, and fencing 200 - 300 acres doesn't seem a smart move to me. Bigger acreages make more sense from a "fairness" standpoint. -------No easy answer unless several local landowners agree to set a standard to let some walk. Doubtful many would sign onto that.

 

[roymunson]

I learned my lesson this fall at my house...i was checking my camera above my plot everyday and kept seeing less and less deer and almost no bucks...then i started letting them soak for 3-5 days at a time and only checking them with rain in the near future and boom i had far more sightings and more bucks too! i will probably go back to checking it daily once the season ends though (just too much fun to see whats around)

problem we have is, While i'm not there every day, I love to go take a drive around it on the side by side. Check my clover. see how the turnips are doing. Mow lanes.

I LOVE working hte land, and I think that works against me sometimes

 

[PatinPA]

Some of you guys that live right near / next to your hunting ground are lucky. If I lived that close to my camp .............. I probably wouldn't be IN my home much. I'd be worn down to a frazzle from planting things, fertilizing things, placing tree stands, cutting shooting lanes, pruning fruit trees, building some owl nesting boxes, fishing, hinging some trees, putting out game cams, cutting firewood, and LOTS of hunting. My wife would have to come LOOKING for me !!!!

I fortunately live about 15 minutes from my property. I spend at least one weekend day there all summer doing stuff. I also have no phone signal at all. So my wife, after I had spent almost a whole day there with no contact, snarkily asked me when I got home if I had gotten lost. So now every time I go there I tell her I'm going to get lost for a while.

 

[Bszweda]

Baker do you think the high fatality rate from buck on buck fighting your seeing is because they don't have any other place to go? I'm assuming once bucks get older and start fighting other older bucks with significant antlers the risk for entanglement and goring go up. Also do you have to worry about inbreeding?

 

[Native Hunter]

Overcoming (and sometimes failing to overcome) the negatives of bad neighbors, brown is down, small acreages and all the other ills that go along with hunting free range deer is just part of the challenge for me - and a challenge that I embrace. Despite all of the disappointments and setbacks, my son and I are killing more big bucks than anyone around us, and I am having the enjoyment of my life implementing my strategies, improving my land and exercising the God given dominion over the small piece of the earth that I manage. I wouldn't trade what I have for anything else in the world. Yes, it's a jungle out there, but you can call me Tarzan..... When they pry my cold, dead fingers from my chainsaw and/or shovel, I will quit trying.

 

[Bszweda]

 

[PatinPA]

I want to get this made into a Tshirt for when I go to camp in WV.

 

[SwampCat]

Overcoming (and sometimes failing to overcome) the negatives of bad neighbors, brown is down, small acreages and all the other ills that go along with hunting free range deer is just part of the challenge for me - and a challenge that I embrace. Despite all of the disappointments and setbacks, my son and I are killing more big bucks than anyone around us, and I am having the enjoyment of my life implementing my strategies, improving my land and exercising the God given dominion over the small piece of the earth that I manage. I wouldn't trade what I have for anything else in the world. Yes, it's a jungle out there, but you can call me Tarzan..... When they pry my cold, dead fingers from my chainsaw and/or shovel, I will quit trying.

I think that is what most of us have. Make the best of our situation - try to make our own patch of ground the best in the area. If you pay attention, you can learn what works best. We regularly kill the best bucks in the area - but they arent 7 yr old deer.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Trust me I know I’m a romantic who believes in the purity of the sport. I get that my opinions are strong but I believe in them so I’m not willing to compromise them. Putting up a fence to protect what you feel like is yours is wrong in my eyes. You are restricting movement of a free animal. Not to mention it should be illegal to fence in game that belongs to us. If you want to fence in your land fine, but it should be a low fence that allows for free range. Its a foreign concept to me to restric somethings genetic and natural desire to roam.
I also don’t think anyone who puts a fence is bad by any means. I just don’t agree with their methods just like I don’t always (ok rarely!) agree with my wife. I can still converse and learn from someone I disagree with. Hell I’d love to see rustys place and I watch his videos sometimes. He’s extremely knowledgeable obviously.

Native hit the nail on the head, outdoing your neighbors is part of it…a huge part of it.

 

[hillrunner]

Here is the way I've taken control of my property which is 1350 acres. My farm adjoins my lifelong friends farm which is 1150 acres ; Both of us sharing similar passions. I've told this before and my only regret is I didn't act sooner.

I'm 67 and I've lived on my farm for 44 years. I've been on the property since I was 6 yrs old. In the beginning there were no deer. Poaching was year round rampant. I cant remember when I saw the first deer but I suspect it wasn't until I was in my 20's. I was given full management control when I was 18. To gain control of poaching I cleared a 400' perimeter around the property. I hired a sheriff to patrol on horseback in full uniform. A redneck poacher idiot shot a 30-06 from 30 yds at the front feet of his horse. By the time we finished with all legal proceedings it became clear poaching wouldn't be tolerated.

I built a road system throughout the farm, put 10% in food plots and designed the entire property for deer/deer hunting even though hardly ever saw a deer.I brought in the top biologist in the nation and implemented every habitat and herd strategy known to man. Over time though the herd built. My neighbor and I got better and better at year round plots. About 25 years ago we started supplementing with protein pellets. I ultimately placed a feeder per 60 acres. Nonetheless while the herd grew we couldn't grow a 170" buck. In fact over 30+ years we harvested one 170" buck. Discouraging and frustrating. Especially since I have been privileged to see some of the finest deer country in the nation and wanted badly to create it on my own property.

So about 9 yrs ago? { I'm terrible with time} we both had enough. Every perimeter property around us shot every deer that left our property. So we began construction of a game fence around our total property. Did it ourself taking a couple years. Then a remarkable thing happened. Three years later...about the time the 3 yr olds became 6 and 7.....we took a 227 and a 220. Wow. Now its getting fun. Today we have a deer herd that more appropriately reflects an unmolested deer herd. Buck doe ratio is about 1/1. Age structure is terrific with more bucks 4 and older that 1-3 and a fair amount of bucks die of old age. Population is in line with habitat. We get to see all the cool annual deer behaviors of a healthy herd. While the hunting is as challenging as ever its a lot more fun knowing there is a chance at seeing a fully mature 6 yr old or older bruiser.

Learned several interesting lessons. Deer move a lot more than people think. Explains why so few ever see mature deer. Genetics are not fixed and in fact with high levels of nutrition you can positively improve genetic expression. Natural mortality is higher than most understand with bucks especially 3 and 4 yr olds killing each other. The primary benefit of a game fence is the " opportunity" to allow bucks to age yet in the right circumstances doesn't diminish the quality of the hunting in the least. Today I own high fenced properties, low fenced properties and properties such as my farm that have been managed both ways over material periods of time. Happy to speak from experience on that subject with anyone but for sure on my farm my only regret is I didn't build the fence sooner.

I wonder if the deer in your location travel a lot more than midwest deer? I'm curious what your terrain looks like? I know plenty of people killing/hunting 6+ year old bucks every year on way less acreage and no fence. (I'm one of them) If a guy had 2500 acres here, he'd lose track of the number of fully mature bucks he had to hunt.
How many deer do you kill annually to keep the population in check? Do you kill management bucks or is that not a worry since the high caliber bucks cannot leave?

 

[jsasker007]

Trust me I know I’m a romantic who believes in the purity of the sport. I get that my opinions are strong but I believe in them so I’m not willing to compromise them. Putting up a fence to protect what you feel like is yours is wrong in my eyes. You are restricting movement of a free animal. Not to mention it should be illegal to fence in game that belongs to us. If you want to fence in your land fine, but it should be a low fence that allows for free range. Its a foreign concept to me to restric somethings genetic and natural desire to roam.
I also don’t think anyone who puts a fence is bad by any means. I just don’t agree with their methods just like I don’t always (ok rarely!) agree with my wife. I can still converse and learn from someone I disagree with. Hell I’d love to see rustys place and I watch his videos sometimes. He’s extremely knowledgeable obviously.

Native hit the nail on the head, outdoing your neighbors is part of it…a huge part of it.

A low fence kinda defeats the purpose of a fence in my opinion.

 

[Baker]

Baker do you think the high fatality rate from buck on buck fighting your seeing is because they don't have any other place to go? I'm assuming once bucks get older and start fighting other older bucks with significant antlers the risk for entanglement and goring go up. Also do you have to worry about inbreeding?

Its in a deers dna to fight and jockey for dominance from the day they are born . Males and females. Does are constantly ' kangaroo' fighting and an old matriarch can be quite grumpy and territorial. Bucks start school yard tussling as fawns and it doesn't add up to much danger at 1 or 2 though its natures way of them getting to know each other. The problems in a well balanced herd with tight B/D ratio and plenty of older bucks starts at 3-4 when these bucks are fighting to get into the breeding pool. While they may know each other thru summer bachelor groups where much of the sorting out takes place, hormones are stronger than ever and with bigger antlers and stronger bodies problems develop. Generally the most fighting takes place between these age classes though certainly older bucks can get involved. A fight between a couple 6 and 7 yr olds is a sight to see.

I've also seen bucks fighting and have younger bucks run up and way lay one of them in the side. Spike antler into the lung area and dead deer. Lots of bad things can happen from fighting. Eyes gauged out, split front hooves [ often a death sentence ] locked antlers etc.

Actually fighting can be more of a problem with larger scale property holding a well balanced herd. As mentioned much of the dominance is sorted out during the summer. But when bucks go on a lengthy walkabout they are more likely to run into an unknown buck. that can be a problem. Buck mortality is the same on our 25,000 ranch as it is on my farm.All this said its really cool to watch bucks posture and fluff when they interact in the fall. They love to be a bad ass.

Genetic depth is incredibly complex. While in very small fenced properties that is a possibility over time the reality is it doesn't happen with any scale. Its also why culling for genetic improvement is impossible.

 

[Baker]

I wonder if the deer in your location travel a lot more than midwest deer? I'm curious what your terrain looks like? I know plenty of people killing/hunting 6+ year old bucks every year on way less acreage and no fence. (I'm one of them) If a guy had 2500 acres here, he'd lose track of the number of fully mature bucks he had to hunt.
How many deer do you kill annually to keep the population in check? Do you kill management bucks or is that not a worry since the high caliber bucks cannot leave?

First, appreciate my observations come from two radically different ecosystems. One the semi tropical lush dense La. habitat and the other the semi arid brush country along the Rio Grande river in Mexico. In both environments we have observed visually, with cameras and with killing of known bucks deer to routinely move many miles at one time or another. Been plenty of studies around observing same thing. Incredible even to me, I was goose hunting with a biologist from Missouri. He had tracked a radio collard buck there that did a [ 60 mile? ...I forget the exact distance but it was that dramatic] walk about. I think he published a paper on that which someone may be able to find. While I think habitat can influence movement along with a deers personality and perhaps even the specific sub specie everywhere I've ever been bucks are prone to lengthy walkabouts even if only for a few days. { is the season open during this walkabout? What are the neighbors Doing? ...many variables define survivability wit these walkabouts }

On my farm this year where we have extremely high recruitment I plan to remove 20-25 does and will probably take 5-6 bucks. We try to remove no bucks before they are 4 and frequently older. No-one can tell what a 1 or 2 yr old can become and its a crap shoot even at 3. So we typically take from the bottom of the quality spectrum whatever we can once mature. I'm having more fun now watching the top end grow really old just to see what they do even as they may die of old age. Most of my hunting is done with a video camera. Catch and release deer hunting.

At the ranch the ecosystem is much more fragile with rain having a tremendous bearing on recruitment. Most years we remove no does because recruitment tends to track mortality. Should we have a few wet summers then we remove does. This may drive some of you crazy but we bring a helicopter in , trap does and sell them to other ranches. There is a high demand for the quality we have developed there with a waiting list of potential buyers wanting to improve their ranch. Pretty incredible rodeo to watch. We generally remove 10-15 bucks a year shooting only the older age classes . I love to guide guests and while we may be removing bucks that don't have the top end potential we are managing for, frequently it is the biggest buck many have ever seen Magic memories. Hunting that country is an incredible world class experience in one of the most wildlife rich areas in North America. Hunt deer early late. Shoot a few quail midday. Hustle over to a tank to shoot ducks late, spot the occasional mountain lion and the list goes on.

 

[Baker]

A low fence kinda defeats the purpose of a fence in my opinion.

I absolutely hate tight 5 strand barb wire fences. In many ways they are just as real and impediment as a game fence. Bucks cant go under them.They certainly will jump them if pushed but old bucks are lazy and I've seen them walk up and down them unwilling to cross. Beyond that I have found deer balled up in them dead.

 

[Bill Loser]

I think that is what most of us have. Make the best of our situation - try to make our own patch of ground the best in the area. If you pay attention, you can learn what works best. We regularly kill the best bucks in the area - but they arent 7 yr old deer.

That is my only option. Try to make my small chunk of heaven look better than the rest. Problem i have is lack of good cover. I try to plant something tall growing every year( corn, sunflowers etc) and plant it as thick as i can. Then i plant as much food as i possibly can hold. All in an effort to at least get them to move in here to eat every day. This works well ,but usually as the season wears on i see less and less movement. With 20 acres its hard to not over hunt. What would you all do differently with a situation like this?
And yes, I am incredibly jealous of you guys with 200 plus acres to play with! Someday, im young yet so it might happen.