2015 Pruning pics

[wiscwhip]

What's your confusion? Questions?

The "branch training" thing has me confused. I'd like to know just for comparison to what we did wrong(or right, I am not an apple guy by any stretch) with the trees on our old place. The section at the bottom that talks about gravimorphism and the creation of excess watersprouts in relation to crotch angles has me totally confused. We(the apple guys on here) always say to get the branches as close to a 90 degree crotch angle as possible, but the paper says this will promote excessive watersprouts on the topside of the limb and to prevent this, limb crotch angles should be kept at around 45 to 60 degrees? What is "best" for us as it pertains to low maintenance apples for wildlife?

 

[Turkey Creek]

It isnt in relation to crotch angles per say, but limb growth that is getting you confused I believe. I am not sure anyone has promoted 90 degree crotch angles, but irregardless wider crotch angles allow for stronger limbs where they attach to the trunk. However bringing the limb tip below the majority of the limb causes it to lose appical dominancy and thus allows other buds along the limb to attempt to become the terminal leader, leading to water sprouts.

 

[wiscwhip]

Another thought if your getting excessive water sprouts , one way to slow the tree is to summer prune and not winter prune prune late july early august and the reason is to remove vigor from the tree . All the energy in a apple tree is in the root in the winter send that into the tree in spring that has had heavy pruning and you will force excessive growth early in the year water sprouts. Prune in the summer removes vigor and slows water sprouts as you are removing the part of the tree that catches sun or energy and then that energy can not be sent to the root system . Correctly done there is a balance I believe if you are unsure proceed with caution and let the tree tell you what is good better to remove too little now and come back later also most of you guys are growing on standard or close to standard size trees pruning is managed different on those than high density tall spindle trellised orchards

I caught much of what you are explaining after re-reading the summer pruning section, but it also says that there are some drawbacks that would scare me. When speaking strictly from a habitat tree standpoint, the reduced fruit size and sweetness would not be an issue to me. The whole overall reduced tree growth, reduced root growth, and reduced vigor would lead me to believe that this is not a good idea, especially in the extreme climates of MN, WI, and other northern tier areas. All the "reducing" that is going on would make me believe that the tree could more easily succumb to winter injury. I guess I understand what you are saying about the importance of using caution when applying this method. So still a bit...:confused::confused::confused: on which would be better for a wildlife tree, I assume it is a combination of all methods, that is why I find apples to be a PIA. I wish apples were as easy as winter rye or establishing willows, even corn is easier. :mad:

It isnt in relation to crotch angles per say, but limb growth that is getting you confused I believe. I am not sure anyone has promoted 90 degree crotch angles, but irregardless wider crotch angles allow for stronger limbs where they attach to the trunk. However bringing the limb tip below the majority of the limb causes it to lose appical dominancy and thus allows other buds along the limb to attempt to become the terminal leader, leading to water sprouts.

Yes, I knew the wider crotch angles promoted strong branches and I understand it's not a true 90, but 80 is still considerably different than 45 or even 60. On our trees the angles were mostly in the 65-75 degree range, probably not ideal, but the first 2 years we had them, we just let them grow wild. After talking to a buddy who had worked at an orchard we started to train them down, so some limbs did get a bad start. All these great responses are leading me to believe that there are enough causes of watersprouts that it's not worth worrying about preventing them and just deal with them when needed. In the paper all they really say is that watersprouts are undesireable and 45 degree crotch angles help prevent them. So then the tradeoff is that you get weak branches...:confused::confused::confused:......too many variables and fine lines, and if they go south, it can ruin a lot of long term hard work, PIA!

 

[Maya]

The "branch training" thing has me confused. I'd like to know just for comparison to what we did wrong(or right, I am not an apple guy by any stretch) with the trees on our old place. The section at the bottom that talks about gravimorphism and the creation of excess watersprouts in relation to crotch angles has me totally confused. We(the apple guys on here) always say to get the branches as close to a 90 degree crotch angle as possible, but the paper says this will promote excessive watersprouts on the topside of the limb and to prevent this, limb crotch angles should be kept at around 45 to 60 degrees? What is "best" for us as it pertains to low maintenance apples for wildlife?

Absolutely 60 % or so Wiscwhip! After that you may get to many suckers. Ideally at 60 % you will promote fruiting wood and have a good strong angle to hold a heavy fruit load. You will get some side branching, but not as much as much as at 90. 90% is good right at the crotch where the branch meets the leader, but then you want that branch going out at 60 or so if possible. Of course that is in a perfect world, don't sweat it if they are not exact.

Within the branch, there is auxin (growth hormone) that moves out to the tip and makes branches grow out. The more upward the branch, the more it grows. The more flat the branch the more the auxin promotes growth within the length of the branch. Some of this growth is good and can be side branching for fruiting wood, to much and the branch bushes out and shades out other growth. Make sense? Now, How much fruit that is on the tree and the amount of fert applied will also change the growth too. There is a lot to it, it's a balancing act per se, but if you just grow them and read some, it will all come together after a few years to be proficient at growing apples. That is not to say that you can not let some of them go and get some apples for deer!

This is a Galarina for deer going on it's 3rd leaf. (before pruning) It's not going to be perfect by any means, but it will produce well next year. Don't sweat it, you don't have to be perfect!!!

 

[leexrayshady]

There is a hiromone in the branch called auxin, consider this the steroids of the tree, they make branches grow, when you bend a branch to 90 deg the auxin settles to the upper portion of e branch causing those buds to rapidly grow, is water sprouts, here is a chestnut crab look at the branches I pulled them down to far causing all these sprouts to grow

Some reason photobucket is acting up. I will post pics later

 

[wiscwhip]

Maya, you make it sound so easy! 60 degrees, that is an answer I can understand without interpretation. LOL I am assuming the branches will have plenty of strength with that angle and still not have widespread waterspout issues. Thanks to everyone for all the great responses, lots of good info and explanations. Any thoughts on the summer pruning leading to winter injury, or is that just me being paranoid?

 

[leexrayshady]

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[Maya]

Maya, you make it sound so easy! 60 degrees, that is an answer I can understand without interpretation. LOL I am assuming the branches will have plenty of strength with that angle and still not have widespread waterspout issues. Thanks to everyone for all the great responses, lots of good info and explanations. Any thoughts on the summer pruning leading to winter injury, or is that just me being paranoid?

You got it! Don't sweat it if you get a branch down farther, you just might have to prune out a few more suckers, no biggie! Yes, don't worry about winter injury .

 

[Maya]

Another thought if your getting excessive water sprouts , one way to slow the tree is to summer prune and not winter prune prune late july early august and the reason is to remove vigor from the tree . All the energy in a apple tree is in the root in the winter send that into the tree in spring that has had heavy pruning and you will force excessive growth early in the year water sprouts. Prune in the summer removes vigor and slows water sprouts as you are removing the part of the tree that catches sun or energy and then that energy can not be sent to the root system . Correctly done there is a balance I believe if you are unsure proceed with caution and let the tree tell you what is good better to remove too little now and come back later also most of you guys are growing on standard or close to standard size trees pruning is managed different on those than high density tall spindle trellised orchards

Who is talking about tall spindle?

 

[Maya]

Tall spindle, trellised, high density was brought up to compare the different approaches to apples compared to standard roots and large trees much different approaches

Your going to confuse things even more if you start throwing in different methods of training into the mix. For deer, everyone is using a central leader training and pruning. BTW, Tall spindle is one type of many high density plantings grown on trellis's. They are not exclusive of each other!

 

[wiscwhip]

So each growing method and orchard "layout type" has it's own nuances, got it. Different varieties also have specific ways they like to have their "hair" trimmed. And multiple answers that say no worries on winter injury from summer pruning, got that as well. Thanks guys, stills seems like a huge pai...never mind...;) I don't have a place to put trees at the moment, but I want to be armed and dangerous when I do. LOL

 

[Dan Wombles]

A side note, summer pruning encourages fruit bud development

 

[wiscwhip]

A side note, summer pruning encourages fruit bud development

Noted, thanks Dan. Is that good or bad? Everyone talks about having to pinch off blossoms or new fruit in the spring due to high fruit loads and such, so I assume there is a point of diminishing returns as far as encouraging fruit buds? Sorry Ed, didn't mean to derail your pruning pictures thread with all the noob questions.:oops:

 

[Turkey Creek]

There is a hiromone in the branch called auxin, consider this the steroids of the tree, they make branches grow, when you bend a branch to 90 deg the auxin settles to the upper portion of e branch causing those buds to rapidly grow, is water sprouts, here is a chestnut crab look at the branches I pulled them down to far causing all these sprouts to grow

Some reason photobucket is acting up. I will post pics later

Actually that is opposite Auxin is an inhibitor hormone, terminal buds produce Auxin thus keeping branches from forming immediately below the terminal bud. Auxin does settle that is why water sprouts form on top of a horizontal limb.

 

[CrazyEd]

Will be 4th Leaf Wolf River B.118

I removed some watersprouts and branches growing back towards the inside of the tree. Thinned a few branches trying to keep the tree open to the center for light and airflow.

Before:

After

 

[CrazyEd]

Novice pruner:

Grafting addict's haul

 

[Maya]

Nice lookin trees Ed!

 

[wiscwhip]

Ed, are those trees currently throwing fruit? I would like to show a few of those pics to my dad next time I see him, just so he can see what our trees could and should have looked like, being that your area is so much like his old place.

 

[CrazyEd]

Nice lookin trees Ed!

Thanks Maya!

Whip - that larger tree put out (1) 1lb apple towards the top, and probably why the tree has a little lean now. If it fruits up top again I probably should do the tree a favor and thin up top. However it was my first apple and I couldn't get myself to pull it early.

I probably got 25 fruit total across 6 trees last year, all were in their 3rd year. Centennial and Kerr Crab had around 6-8 each, a single wolf river, probably 5 black oxford and 4 Frostbite. All on b118.

It's not easy but it can be done!

 

[CrazyEd]

Here's the wolf river August 30th.

3rd leaf black oxford b.118 fruiting in beach sand.

3rd leaf kerr