Seguins - Dwarf Chinese Chestnuts question - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

They called me two days ago to see if I wanted my order of henryi and seguins. Hope I get them at this point, we'll see. On a separate note, the henryi trees I planted last fall are leafing out.

How did you Henri do the first year? I ordered seed as well, it looks like I am going to keep them in the fridge until next spring.

 

[yoderjac]

Just spoke with Schumacher. The Seguins shipped on the 28th and supposedly should be here in a day or two. First class mail was used with no tracking.

 

[yoderjac]

Touchdown! They came came in. Shy under half a year.......hahahahaha

I got three of them bare root from London's nursery last fall. They looked healthy and are leafing out. Got my order in today too, kinda thought the sequins would be small. They're bigger than the henryi nuts!

The henryi chestnuts have flat sides like a chestnut would. I thought they were just one nut per bur. One of the sequins has a flat side as well. I'm not sure what they sent really other than they're some kind of chestnut. Guess I'll find out when they grow.

I had the exact same question! Mine had sides (like a chestnut) unlike a chinquapin. I am intrigued.........

I think we've been hosed!:eek:

Screw it... Im going to call!

I just called. He is going to look into our orders. I send him your pic of your seeds and told him that this was a representative picture of mine as well. He was not sure about why they looked like this (good thing he is looking into it). He will call me back hopefully today and I will pass it on to you, then you may want to call based on what he finds out. I will keep you informed!

Thanks ts! They are definitely some kind of chestnut, but what I wonder?

He will be calling you! hahah yeah they sent the wrong thing. He thinks they are sequins. Told me to keep them, he will send out some Henryi. Said he would go and call everyone who ordered them and tell them the situation, then make it right! So there you go.....
At any rate, I am interested to see what they are next spring! hahahaha

Awesome ts and thanks again too.

 

[yoderjac]

I just called. He is going to look into our orders. I send him your pic of your seeds and told him that this was a representative picture of mine as well. He was not sure about why they looked like this (good thing he is looking into it). He will call me back hopefully today and I will pass it on to you, then you may want to call based on what he finds out. I will keep you informed!

I wonder if I'm really getting seguins....They should be round like ACs correct?

 

[yoderjac]

well, Meryl Guess what
got a call from Schumacher and they sent me .25 lbs Henryi instead of seguins!!
They told me to keep em and will send correct order ASAP
So now i have 16 Henryi in the crisper in fridge!
bill

Lol! They just called me too and said my henryi nuts would ship next week. I have a lot of sequins to go with them now or at least I think I do.

I have to say these sequins are bigger than the ones I had last year from my plants. Good to have a little variety! ;o)

 

[yoderjac]

Mine looked/were just like tiny chestnuts. I guess because 3 per bur.

You taught me something. I assumed they would be 1 per bur. I guess that is wrong. When I receive mine, I'll take a pic and you can confirm I got what I expected since it looks like others have not.

 

[yoderjac]

Gosh what a hard company to deal with. Jack has waited forever and likely missed this growing window. I am not a fan of carrying nuts into the next season. Just too many things that can work against your success.
Then others can't get what they ordered - but it appears the wrong nuts were shipped.
I sure hope each of you get some seedlings grown but I have my concerns for your outcome.
Hope your luck improves quickly.

Thanks wbp, the chestnuts I got from you are stating to take off btw.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes sir! They are just like little chestnuts. Pretty neat little guys.

I expected them to be here when I got home today but no luck.

 

[yoderjac]

I was poking around on the web and found this statement regarding propagation of Seguins.
Castanea seguinii is a deciduous Tree growing to 10 m (32ft 10in) at a medium rate.
It is hardy to zone (UK) 6. It is in flower in July, and the seeds ripen in October. The flowers are monoecious (individual flowers are either male or female, but both sexes can be found on the same plant) and are pollinated by insects.

USDA hardiness zone : 5-9

Suitable for: light (sandy), medium (loamy) and heavy (clay) soils, prefers well-drained soil and can grow in nutritionally poor soil. Suitable pH: acid and neutral soils and can grow in very acid soils.
It cannot grow in the shade. It prefers dry or moist soil and can tolerate drought.

Habitats

Woodland Garden Canopy
Propagation

Seed - where possible sow the seed as soon as it is ripe in a cold frame or in a seed bed outdoors[78]. The seed must be protected from mice and squirrels. The seed has a short viability and must not be allowed to become dry. It can be stored in a cool place, such as the salad compartment of a fridge, for a few months if it is kept moist, but check regularly for signs of germination. The seed should germinate in late winter or early spring. If sown in an outdoor seedbed, the plants can be left in situ for 1 - 2 years before planting them out in their permanent positions. If grown in pots, the plants can be put out into their permanent positions in the summer or autumn, making sure to give them some protection from the cold in their first winter.

Cultivation details

Prefers a good well-drained slightly acid loam but succeeds in dry soils[1, 11, 200]. Once established, it is very drought tolerant[1, 11, 200]. Very tolerant of highly acid, infertile dry sands[200]. Averse to calcareous soils but succeeds on harder limestones[11, 200]. This species can vary in size from a shrub 4 metres tall to, rarely, a tree 12 metres tall[266]. It is allied to the dwarf N. American species C. pumila[11], but unlike that species it has 3 seeds per bur[183]. Valued in breeding programmes because of its dwarf stature and heavy bearing at an early age[183]. Sometimes cultivated for its edible seed in China[266]. Although it is winter-hardy in most of Britain, this species only really thrives in areas with hot summers[200]. An excellent soil-enriching understorey in pine forests[200]. Flowers are produced on wood of the current year's growth[229]. Plants are fairly self-sterile[200]. They hybridize freely with other members of this genus[200]. Plants in this genus are notably resistant to honey fungus[200].

Thanks for posting this CuivreDog. I found the same thing and it is in direct conflict with what the Shumacher site says. I tend to believe this. It is also consistent with what ts_13 posted as his personal experience. Given all the other less than accurate information I've received from Shumacher, it doesn't surprise me that their web site it wrong.
These are most commonly called Seguins or Chinese Chinquapins. I've also heard Dwarf Chinese Chestnuts and the Shumacher site calls them Dwarf Asian Chestnuts. I'm guessing that someone saw the word "Chestnut" in the common name and just did a cut and paste from the treatment for other chestnuts.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, the Sequins final arrived today. They were in a sack. A few were very moldy and there were quite a few floaters, but most looked good. I discarded those with mold and washed each of the rest by hand under running water. I did not use a bleach solution as I've had negative issues with bleach and chestnuts.
Right now they are hydrating....

 

[yoderjac]

Glad your saga is over, Jack.

I sure hope not! I hope it is just beginning! :D

 

[yoderjac]

Well, forcing them was not a good idea. I checked on them when I got home from the farm today. Quite a few were so moldy that I had to throw them out. I washed the rest in running water to try to salvage them. I discarded the bags and long-fiber sphagnum that was in them.
They were at room temperature for 5 days in ziplock bags with moisture. Absolutely none show signs of germinating. My AC germinate very soon after I put them in with moisture, so perhaps these do need cold stratification.
At a minimum, I'm going to need to germinate them in the fridge so they don't get moldy. After washing the ones I was trying to force, I put them in the fridge in a separate container from the others that have been in there since I got them.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack
Thanks for sharing your Seguins with me. I am betting on "Cold Stratification" and intend to give them three months from April 13th.
July 12th is the 90th day. My wife's birthday is July 14th - so I will plan on 92 days in the fridge.
I hope to get 8 to 10 trees out of this batch. Thanks again. :)

Same as Wayne.....thanks for sharing!!! You da'man!!! Lol!
I stuck them in the fridge.....for the same reason you did. After 2 days I had 2 REALLY moldy ones......said, no more of that!!! Hah. Ill fridge them and try mid summer!
Thanks again!

The problem I see with cold stratification and planting them in the summer is hardening. Seedlings need time to properly harden by winter. I wonder if they will be old enough to harden properly if started in mid summer.
I think it was ts_13 that had hands on experience and said they start without cold stratification like ACs. Now that plan A (forcing them) is off the table, I'm counting on ts_13s experience for plan B (starting them this year). If he is wrong and they do require cold stratification, my fall back is to let them start when they start. If they are not mature enough to harden by September, I may bring them inside and put them under lights and keep them growing until they are ready. I'll then put them in my cold room where they won't freeze and let them go dormant. I also put a bunch in the fridge without added moisture hoping they will keep until next fall which is my plan C.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
please clarify "Plan B"
Are you direct seeding them or planting them inRM18s?
Did you put seguins back in fridge?
Mine are in fridge with spanghnum moss(along with 16 henryei sent by error!)
perhaps ts-13 could comment
bill

I will plant them in 18s but grow them outdoors through the summer. I'll then transplant to 1 gal RB2s to over winter them.

I had mine beside some AC. They seemed to sprout about the same time so I hope this hold true! They were in the fridge for a while but so where the AC's.

My ACs produce a root radicle very fast in the fall when I pick them. No cold stratification is needed. This year, I vernalized them with some success. Last year I planted them immediately in the fall in 18s. The problem was that there was no time for them to go dormant. They started growing in October under lights and became very lanky with poor root systems being under lights for so long. I tried to force some into dormancy and they all died.
This year, I put them in 18s as soon as they produced a root radicle. I then put the entire try of 18s in an XL ziplock bag and put it in the fridge for a couple months. In theory, this allows them to produce a full root radicle without top growth. Then after a couple months, I took them out and they produced top growth. So, they spent much less time under artificial light and are doing very well. I only have a few but they are growing well in 5" roottrapper bags.
I guess time will tell if the seguins need cold stratification. When you said they produced a root radicle at the same time as your ACs, I didn't realize you were actually cold stratifying them. It could be that you just slowed down your ACs by putting them in the fridge and the seguins actually needed the time in the fridge.
About how long had they been in the fridge when you saw the first root radicles?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Sorry I have been out on the lake all weekend. My Seguins and AC's both started out around February? The best I can recall! I put them in small pots in the fridge.

Oh, so they actually did have cold stratification? I guess I misunderstood your original post. If I put ACs in the fridge when I pick them, I've got radicles starting in a week or two.

 

[yoderjac]

I checked the seguins that are cold stratifying today and they show no signs of producing root radicles. So, I'm now convinced they do need a minimum of 60 days of cold stratification. Even though they are commonly called Chinese Chinquapins, they are more closely related to chestnuts and thus require the cold stratification. Just goes to show how deceiving the common names can be. I now think the name that Schumacher uses, Dwarf Asian Chestnut to be a better description. I think Dwarf Chinese Chestnut is even better as it distinguishes it from Dwarf Korean Chestnut.
I've been pondering the best path forward. I lost a lot of Dunstan chestnuts this year to nitrogen shock as I was experimenting with biochar and got the C:N balance wrong. I'm fairly certain that is the problem. I much higher percentage of chestnuts are drying out and dying where biochar is used and the death rate seems to be related to the percentage of biochar in the mix. My pawpaws were the first to get biochar and they got the highest percentage. It looks like I'll only lose about a half dozen of them. I think this is because this is the second growing season for them and they can handle that N shock better. In general, the trees where I used the biochar are not doing as well as the control group, but most are not dying.
This means I'll have fewer Dunstan chestnuts this year so the seguins become even more important. I think I'm going to drop the idea of direct seeding completely. I put them in cold stratification in mid-April so it will be mid-June before they hit 60 days. One thing that Wayne and I learned this year is that more stratification to a point increases germination rates. I think direct seeding in mid-to-late-June would be a death sentence if you don't provide supplemental water in my area. So, that leaves growing them in 18s.
18s require daily attention to water in the summer in my area and I have a wedding to attend out of state in early July. So, I plan to keep the ones in cold stratification in the fridge until I return in early July. At that point I'll plant them in 18s.
With dunstans, it can take several weeks from the time they produce root radicles until I see top growth, so it could easily be August before I see top growth. That makes me concerned that they won't be mature enough by fall to harden off properly and will be killed over the winter.
I'm now considering bringing them back indoors before the weather cools in September and growing them under lights until they are more mature. I would then gradually nock back the hours per day of light and temperature and finally transplant them to 1 gal RB2s and put them in my cold room for the winter.
The other alternative is to just start growing them indoors. I wonder if they would lose something growing under artificial light for an entire growing season.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

This is a Chinese Chinkapin that I planted in the fall of 2014. It was purchased as a bare root seeding from the Wildlife Group.

Is it producing yet?

 

[yoderjac]

Production was hampered by drought that wouldn't allow the burrs to form nuts, or it would have produced nuts the year after it was planted. Chinese Chinkapin is drought tolerant, but appears to grow at a slower rate than A/C.

 

[yoderjac]

As I recall, there was a question regarding the need for stratification of sequin nuts

i would like to report my retrospective ,observational,nonrandomized study of 42 nuts that i received fromFW Schumacher on 4/6/16
After soaking them in rainwater for 24 hours, i planted all 42"sinkers" in RM 18s with Promix BX with mychorhizzae(sp?)
On 5/8/16, no top growth noted. In addition ,I dug up all of them and none of them had even dreamed of producing a radicle
This singular experience suggests Schumacher was right and that the sequins DO require stratification
bill

Bill,
That is exactly what I found. I didn't plant mine, I tried to force some of them for a week or so with warmth and moisture. I got no sign of root radicle and some got pretty moldy quick. I excised the moldy ones, cleaned the rest and put them into cold stratification.
I also took a batch and put them directly into cold stratification. As of today, I have not seen a single nut produce a root radicle. I too am convinced they need at least 60 days like chestnuts, rather than acting like ACs.
I took a third batch and put them in the fridge in a ziplock with no added moisture. I'm hoping to suspend this group until next winter.
THanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, I checked my seguin nuts today. It was not a pretty sight. I had separated them into a few nuts per bag and every bag had nuts with heavy mold. The issue was not too much moisture because both the bag with the sphagnum to hold moisture that I was cold stratifying and the bags with no added moisture that I had hoped to suspend until next fall were equally moldy.
One nut in the cold stratified set showed the beginning of a root radicle. Several of the nuts were soft and got chucked. All the rest passed the float test. This mold seems different than the mold I've seen on chestnuts. Perhaps it is because they came from China. One of the nuts in the sack I received was covered with this mold but the rest had none visible. Clearly it spread.
I need to wait until the first week in July to plant these. I guess time will tell if I'll have any luck. Even if I get a few trees that I can use as a source for nuts in the future it will be worth it.
Thanks,
Jack