Growing Chestnut Trees from Chestnuts - Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

This thread is so looong, forgive me if I’m repeating…
1) I noticed my chestnuts in the fridge from last year are sprouting now already in February. Should I leave them there until Spring, or move them now to pots inside the house until Spring green-up?
2) Why move from small pot to large pot. Why not save some work by placing in large pot from the start?
3) Does anyone prune their chestnut trees to encourage a particular shape or trunk form?
Thanks

Grundsow,
Glad to see you here! Many of us here are starting our chestnuts indoors under lights. Once the root radicle emerges, we plan them in the first container. Most folks are using rootmaker pots or a similar root pruning system. Check out the rootmaker site for more detail, but the general reason for moving between pot sizes is this. You start them in 18-cells. Most of us prefer the express cells. These cells are designed to air prune the tap root quickly. This stimulates secondary and tertiary root growth. The concept is to improve tree growth by developing a dense root system with lots of feeder roots.
After about 12-16 weeks, the rootball fills the express cell and they become hard to water. If you don't transplant the tree at this point, you will loose growth. At that point, you either transplant the trees directly into the field from the cell or transplant them into a larger container if you plan to keep them containerized through the summer. I like the rootbuilder II 1 gal pots for the next size but you can also use 5" roottrapper bags if you like. These pots also air prune the roots. The bags use a different technique and trap the root tips. In both cases the effect is the same. Roots don't circle the pot to J-hook which can cause problems in later life of the tree.
In general, a tree like this sacrifices early growth to ensure survival in nature. It produces a long tap root to ensure it can get water during a summer drought. It then begins to focus more on root branching creating more root tips to ingest energy. By air pruning the root system, you sacrifice the drought survival insurance of nature for better early growth. So, the key for using this approach is making sure the trees get sufficient water during drought periods until they are well established.
As for pruning seedlings, I've done it both ways. I prefer prune any dual trunks or early branching but others don't. There is no right way with Dunstan chestnuts. Some take more of an upright American form and others take more of the early branching Chinese form.
Good Luck,
Jack

I feel like a complete noob asking this but what's the root radicle look like as it emerges from the chestnut. I've yet to pull mine from the fridge but I did add moisture 10 days ago and was expecting to see at least one or two germinate.
The long white cord running from the point of the nut with fingers isn't the root is it?

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Originally Posted by Twig
I feel like a complete noob asking this but what's the root radicle look like as it emerges from the chestnut. I've yet to pull mine from the fridge but I did add moisture 10 days ago and was expecting to see at least one or two germinate.
The long white cord running from the point of the nut with fingers isn't the root is it?
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Yes it is.

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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
Yes it is.
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(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) looks like I've got another table to build in order to get these planted so I better get crackin.

If you scan back up through the thread, you will see plenty of pictures of nuts with the root radicle emerging. I've always planted mine long before they start branching.
Also, keep in mind that the nut determines what direction is up and what is down just before the root radicle emerges. You want to have the nuts properly oriented before this occurs, not sitting randomly in the bag.
Good Luck,
Jack

More info needed…
1) I have no desire to maintain artificial lighting, but my question remains. Do sprouting chestnuts NEED to be planted immediately, or can they wait until weather permits? In other words, why are sprouted chestnuts being planted so early (Feb)? Why not freeze them to prevent growth until Spring?
2) I understand “air-pruning” favors fiber over taproot formation. But, does air-pruning require staged pot sizes (S, M, L), or are people doing that just because they couldn’t get all seedlings transplanted to their final destination before they outgrew the starter pot?

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Originally Posted by grundsow
More info needed…
1) I have no desire to maintain artificial lighting, but my question remains. Do sprouting chestnuts NEED to be planted immediately, or can they wait until weather permits? In other words, why are sprouted chestnuts being planted so early (Feb)? Why not freeze them to prevent growth until Spring?
2) I understand “air-pruning” favors fiber over taproot formation. But, does air-pruning require staged pot sizes (S, M, L), or are people doing that just because they couldn’t get all seedlings transplanted to their final destination before they outgrew the starter pot?
==================================
Grundsow,
You can slow them down by keeping them cool but you can't stop them once the root radicle starts. Those root radicles need to go somewhere. If you plan them with the proper orientation before the root radicle emerges as I mentioned to another poster, the root will grow the proper direction. The problem is that you have a long way to go in PA until spring planting time. I'm not sure if you can slow them down enough. If you have a southern window or outdoor green house, that might work.
For number 2) air pruning does not require multiple levels of pot. I have tired it both ways. One concept is that by keeping the plants containerized through the first growing season you can optimize the care and maximize growth. In this case folks would normally transplant them from the cells to larger containers and then plant them in the fall.
For me, the added cost of larger pots and time and effort to maintain them containerized through the summer was not worth the extra growth. So, I'll be planting mine in the spring directly out of cells.
If you planted them directly in a one gallon sized rootbuilder II pot, you would eventually get root pruning. You would get less growth because it would take longer to get the well developed root system. In the mean time the plant would have less access to nutrients than it would had you root pruned in stages. If you plant to spring plant them, larger pots don't make a lot of sense. I think it is better to try to time them so you are planting directly from the cells. If you plant directly in 1 gal pots, you won't get significant root pruning by spring planting time.
Those are my thoughts for what they are worth. I've only been using these rootmakers for a couple years so there may be others with better advice.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

They are best kept at 34 degrees.
Actually they are best kept in the soil at the farm with a fall planting. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I’ll try this one last time, then I’m giving up…
1) Can anyone explain the school of thought to collecting seed in the Fall, and placing directly into the fridge instead of first in the freezer? My fridge-kept nuts have germinated way too early to place outside. We still have 2 feet of snow in PA! I’m thinking I should be moving them from the freezer to the fridge now in Feb, unless there is some benefit to potting them indoors in Feb.
Thanks

Quote:
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Originally Posted by grundsow
I’ll try this one last time, then I’m giving up…
1) Can anyone explain the school of thought to collecting seed in the Fall, and placing directly into the fridge instead of first in the freezer? My fridge-kept nuts have germinated way too early to place outside. We still have 2 feet of snow in PA! I’m thinking I should be moving them from the freezer to the fridge now in Feb, unless there is some benefit to potting them indoors in Feb.
Thanks
==================================
Don't freeze, just store dry in the fridge until you're ready for them to wake up, then add moisture (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) you can time germination for whenever you want with this method.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by grundsow
I’ll try this one last time, then I’m giving up…
1) Can anyone explain the school of thought to collecting seed in the Fall, and placing directly into the fridge instead of first in the freezer? My fridge-kept nuts have germinated way too early to place outside. We still have 2 feet of snow in PA! I’m thinking I should be moving them from the freezer to the fridge now in Feb, unless there is some benefit to potting them indoors in Feb.
Thanks
==================================
Because the nuts need 60 days of cold stratification. Depending on the temps and duration, freezing can kill the embryo. They will tolerate light freezing but you would need to watch your freezer temps. It is not the temperature that caused your nuts to germinate in the fridge, it is the moisture. At 10% moisture stratification slows to a near stop. 65% moisture is optimal for cold stratification.
I tried the "dry storage" method to delay germination this year. That IndianSam method will clearly delay germination. My problem was that I tried to force germination when I wanted it by adding heat and moisture. That forcing function also encouraged mold growth and I lots quite a few nuts to mold.
As for potting them indoors, the only benefit is added growth if you do the indoor lighting. Many of the nuts I started last winter under lights were 3' tall by mid April (our last threat of frost) when I planted them. They had nice fibrous rootballs and continued to grow all summer.
If you scroll back up through this thread, you will find Big8's method for stratification and germination. Basically he stores them dry for a period and then adds most long-fiber sphagnum to increase the moisture levels. He seems to have good timing for getting them to germinate when he needs them for indoor starting. By simply waiting longer to add the moisture, you could delay them so you can direct seed them in the spring.
To be honest, if you want to direct seed them, it may be advantageous to seed them in the fall rather than wait for spring. Either way, direct seeded nuts will need protections from rodents. One advantage to starting them indoors under lights is that the nuts can be removed when taking them outside to acclimate and no rodent damage is a much lower risk.
Hope this helps,
Jack

I've followed the discussion on this thread about nut hydration and stratification with much interest. To get more information I asked a nurseryman who grows chestnut seedlings for commercial sale what his stratification technique is and this was his reply:
"I soak the chestnut seed for three days in running water. I then sow the seed into styro 20 containers making sure the end of the seed with the root radicle is pointed toward the center of the cell. I cold stratify the chestnut seed in the styro 20 container for 160 days at temperatures between 34 and 38 degrees F. After 160 days, I remove the styro 20 container and place it in the greenhouse." (Note they have a walk-in refrigerator.)
"We soak most all of our seed in running water before we put it into strat. This is done because the seed/embryo should be fully imbibed with water before it goes into strat. We are just copying what happens in nature – when the nuts fall to the ground and get snowed and rained on during the winter while they are naturally stratifying."
Clearly he feels that nut hydration is crucial to the stratification process. Since I store my nuts in sealed plastic bags in the refrigerator literally within hours (or less) after dropping from the tree, hydration has never been an issue for me so I never considered it. If you are getting your nuts from another party you really have no idea how they've been handled. If they've had several, or in the worst case, many days of drying, hydration before refrigeration is clearly required!

Glad we are collectively figuring this out but I sure wish I had known this back in October. I'm thinking my entire plan for chestnuts this year is gone.

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Originally Posted by Gator
Glad we are collectively figuring this out but I sure wish I had known this back in October. I'm thinking my entire plan for chestnuts this year is gone.
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Mine was hurt badly but not killed. I think the biggest culprit for me was trying to use bleach to combat the mold situation I created by trying to force germination on my schedule.
IndianSam's post makes a lot of sense. Most of us have been buying nuts and don't know how they were collected or cared for prior to receipt. Moisture content could be quite different.
Every time I have something working pretty well and tweak the process a bit to improve it, I seem to encounter new unforeseen issues.
I should still have more trees than last year but I'm not sure they will be as healthy. I am also beginning to believe that bleach can not only cause germination issues, but can also have a negative impact after the plant germinates and grows. Perhaps that isn't the cause, but I seem to have more runs and damp out trees this year on a percentage basis as well as poorer germination. At last count I was up to about 230 that had at least developed a root radicle and have been planted.
The bottom line is that I'm learning and having lots of fun doing it.

By dampening off I assume you mean when the top simply dies. I have had this happen to a few, when this happens are they pretty much done for?

indianasam44,
If you could follow up with that chestnut grower, I'm assuming that most if not all of his chestnuts germinated while in cold storage, given that he hydrated them immediately and stored them for 160 days. That certainly seems long enough for those chestnuts to not only germinate, but produce a signficant tap root.
Thanks!

You use fungicide to get rid of damping off. The best option is to send a couple plants to your co op extension and they can do tissue analysis. They will tell you how to fix your problem.

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Originally Posted by buktruk
By dampening off I assume you mean when the top simply dies. I have had this happen to a few, when this happens are they pretty much done for?
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Not necessarily. I've had some produce new shoots. They end up set back compared to other trees, but some will survive.

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Originally Posted by bigeight
Don't freeze, just store dry in the fridge until you're ready for them to wake up, then add moisture (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) you can time germination for whenever you want with this method.
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Just to put my 2 cents in on the freezing--don't do it. Speaking from experience, it will kill them for sure. I'm not really sure that I understand the physiology behind it as many nuts experience freezing temps in the wild. Be that as it may, I killed 5 lbs of DCO acorns in my freezer. Every source I've read since then (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) confirms that.
Phil

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
Just to put my 2 cents in on the freezing--don't do it. Speaking from experience, it will kill them for sure. I'm not really sure that I understand the physiology behind it as many nuts experience freezing temps in the wild. Be that as it may, I killed 5 lbs of DCO acorns in my freezer. Every source I've read since then (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) confirms that.
Phil
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Phil,
Most nuts, including chestnuts can take light freezing. Snow, dirt, debris and such can form insulation. You can burry nuts a couple inches deep I most areas an they will survive the winter well.
In a household freezer, the temperature usually dips well below freezing and stays there for extended periods. I think it is that hard freezing that kills them.
Having said that, I agree, I would not intentionally freeze nuts you plant to plant.

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Originally Posted by indianasam44
"I soak the chestnut seed for three days in running water.
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This sounds like a common method of scarification. I have no reason to argue, but it does fly in the face of conventional wisdom about chestnuts.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by indianasam44
I cold stratify the chestnut seed in the styro 20 container for 160 days at temperatures between 34 and 38 degrees F. After 160 days, I remove the styro 20 container and place it in the greenhouse." (Note they have a walk-in refrigerator.)
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160 days! Again, I'm a newb at all this and wouldn't presume to disagree with a pro, but this is much, much longer than the recommendation from others, including the ACF.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by indianasam44
"We soak most all of our seed in running water before we put it into strat. This is done because the seed/embryo should be fully imbibed with water before it goes into strat. We are just copying what happens in nature – when the nuts fall to the ground and get snowed and rained on during the winter while they are naturally stratifying."
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Can't argue with that logic.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by indianasam44
Clearly he feels that nut hydration is crucial to the stratification process. Since I store my nuts in sealed plastic bags in the refrigerator literally within hours (or less) after dropping from the tree, hydration has never been an issue for me so I never considered it. If you are getting your nuts from another party you really have no idea how they've been handled. If they've had several, or in the worst case, many days of drying, hydration before refrigeration is clearly required!
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Maybe I'm getting a little too wonky, but could it be that the float test not only picks up those nuts with weevil infestation, but those that have been critically dehydrated during storage and shipping?

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Not necessarily. I've had some produce new shoots. They end up set back compared to other trees, but some will survive.
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I've had the same experience. They produce an initial shoot that turns black at the tip and dies. About 5-7 days later, another shoot pops up-some survive and some don't. I have one plant that did this a total of 6 times, then croaked altogether. I really thought it was going to survive as it produced a few healthy looking leaves. It's been a week with no signs of life, so I'm going to do an autopsy this weekend. I'll post some photos.
I haven't done any real research on damping off. Is it a fungal infection of the roots? This tree, and others that have acted the same, were grown under identical conditions as the healthy ones--same soil, pot, light, water, temp etc.
Phil

Phil,
I don't have a good handle on damping off. It was a small enough problem last year that it was not a major issue. It seems worse this year. Hopefully one of the more experienced guys will post some more details.
I think IndianSam's nursery guy was probably looking for a spring plant. I presume the 160 days was not necessary for stratification. The best I could tell from the post he was putting the nuts in a deep Styrofoam container so the root could grow in the proper orientation whenever the root radicle is produced. I think he is simply waiting for spring to start them. I believe a "styro 20" refers to a 20 cubic inch Styrofoam container.
I doubt it is viable to start them under indoor lighting commercially. Dr. Whitcomb warns to avoid the temptation of starting them in a greenhouse early to get a jump on spring because the sun intensity and angle is so low in the winter.
We, on the other hand, are fighting cabin fever and want to be hunting turkey, grafting, and planting food plots when the weather breaks in the spring.
Thanks,
Jack

Yeah that's whats happening to a few of mine as well. Luckilly not many though. For the most part my trees have been doing much better than expected.

Here is a thread on this damp out from my plants last year with some pics:
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56004

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Here is a thread on this damp out from my plants last year with some pics:
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56004
==================================
Jack,
The picture you have of the dying shoots is exactly what mine look like. My soil is equal parts Promix BX, Coconut Coir, and Perlite-really well drained, perhaps too well. As with yours, my plants are all in exactly the same conditions, and have a healthy appearing root radical when planted.
This seems to be universal and somewhat limited to this species. I'm just speculating, but I really wonder if this is an issue of genetics and not a microbe as previously suspected. These are hybridized plants that may have some non-viable chromosomal anomalies.
It may be a phenomenon of indoor growing. Either way, I'm pretty much stuck with it as I have no room to start these outdoors. I'd certainly be willing to try something different if anybody can figure out a common factor.
Phil

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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
Jack,
The picture you have of the dying shoots is exactly what mine look like. My soil is equal parts Promix BX, Coconut Coir, and Perlite-really well drained, perhaps too well. As with yours, my plants are all in exactly the same conditions, and have a healthy appearing root radical when planted.
This seems to be universal and somewhat limited to this species. I'm just speculating, but I really wonder if this is an issue of genetics and not a microbe as previously suspected. These are hybridized plants that may have some non-viable chromosomal anomalies.
It may be a phenomenon of indoor growing. Either way, I'm pretty much stuck with it as I have no room to start these outdoors. I'd certainly be willing to try something different if anybody can figure out a common factor.
Phil
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I THINK it is something that you may be doing wrong, don't know what, but something and I don't think it's the species. They are more temperamental, but not that bad. The first year I did chestnuts I had a lot of dampening off. I was doing a lot of little things wrong and slowly they got better as I got better. Mostly water related. Last year I probably only had a couple do it, then threw up a new shoot quickly that turned into a nice little seedling.
Also the kids are helping me with this project, so the first year they were really into watering, fertilizing, etc. So that didn't help. Now they are a couple years older and know a little more, and are helping LESS, which seems to be helping (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by bigeight
I THINK it is something that you may be doing wrong, don't know what, but something and I don't think it's the species. They are more temperamental, but not that bad. The first year I did chestnuts I had a lot of dampening off. I was doing a lot of little things wrong and slowly they got better as I got better. Mostly water related. Last year I probably only had a couple do it, then threw up a new shoot quickly that turned into a nice little seedling.
Also the kids are helping me with this project, so the first year they were really into watering, fertilizing, etc. So that didn't help. Now they are a couple years older and know a little more, and are helping LESS, which seems to be helping (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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How often were you watering? I've settled on twice per week which is about how long it takes for them to get bone dry on the top 1".

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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
How often were you watering? I've settled on twice per week which is about how long it takes for them to get bone dry on the top 1".
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it's probably about 2-3x per week. But my room I'm using is really dry, it's our utility room, so the furnace kicks off hot air which dries it out much quicker than normal. I don't know what the humidity is in that room, but it's gotta be virtually nothing (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I only use the coconut Coir and no perlite with my Promix. not sure if that is good, bad, or other. That's just what I've always used. I do try to wait till the WHOLE cell is dry so the roots reach downwards for the moisture. When I was watering when the top inch or so was dry, I got a 1/3 of the root system.
Wish I was more help, and did a better....or ANY job documenting anything (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by spur79
Okay. I have a dilemma guys. Its no secret I have a surplus of the Dunstans and I was hoping for spring to come so I could plant them in their locations, but you can't stop mother nature. I just checked my root box and I have over 200 sprouted and no room in the grow room. Send me your offers. Not sure what to sell them for, so that is why I chose to do it this way.
ALL CHESTNUTS WILL HAVE A ROOT EXTENDED! Some have 4" roots and there is no delaying these in the fridge, they are ready to grow.
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*IF* you could dig in the ground, they'd probably fare OK planted outside...from my research, if temps are below around 40, the roots will grow, but they won't send up a sprout until it gets warmer...but I would imagine your dirt is frozen muck under snow right now.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by grundsow
More info needed…
1) I have no desire to maintain artificial lighting, but my question remains. Do sprouting chestnuts NEED to be planted immediately, or can they wait until weather permits? In other words, why are sprouted chestnuts being planted so early (Feb)? Why not freeze them to prevent growth until Spring?
2) I understand “air-pruning” favors fiber over taproot formation. But, does air-pruning require staged pot sizes (S, M, L), or are people doing that just because they couldn’t get all seedlings transplanted to their final destination before they outgrew the starter pot?
==================================
It depends how far along they are as of right now.
I have some Scarlet Oak (Quercus coccinea) in the fridge. As of a few weeks back, they have started cracking till and just barely pushing radicles. A few weeks ago, I planted what I had room for under artificial light next to the Swamp Chestnut Oaks. A couple of those have reached the bottom of the rootmaker containers at room temps. The ones sin the fridge have grown maybe a half-inch. I figure as long as I get them in rootmakers before the radicles are long enough to stick out the bottom, I'm good. I think the fridge will slow them enough in my case that I can wait to plant the rest outside around the end of March, by then our average highs are in the low 60s, and I'll only have to bring them in if we have a freeze.
In your case they are probably too far along to slow down enough to wait for warmer weather.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigeight
Don't freeze, just store dry in the fridge until you're ready for them to wake up, then add moisture (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) you can time germination for whenever you want with this method.
==================================
There is some evidence (I am trying to find the article) that if stored JUST below freezing, you can keep them alive for a year or so without them sprouting in the fridge...temps from about 29-32, such as the coldest part of the fridge where the milk freezes (well, OUR fridge does that).

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Mine was hurt badly but not killed. I think the biggest culprit for me was trying to use bleach to combat the mold situation I created by trying to force germination on my schedule.
IndianSam's post makes a lot of sense. Most of us have been buying nuts and don't know how they were collected or cared for prior to receipt. Moisture content could be quite different.
Every time I have something working pretty well and tweak the process a bit to improve it, I seem to encounter new unforeseen issues.
I should still have more trees than last year but I'm not sure they will be as healthy. I am also beginning to believe that bleach can not only cause germination issues, but can also have a negative impact after the plant germinates and grows. Perhaps that isn't the cause, but I seem to have more runs and damp out trees this year on a percentage basis as well as poorer germination. At last count I was up to about 230 that had at least developed a root radicle and have been planted.
The bottom line is that I'm learning and having lots of fun doing it.
==================================
Some people don't like using it, but I've used Captan fungicide to kill off small amounts of mold and it seems to have worked.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
Just to put my 2 cents in on the freezing--don't do it. Speaking from experience, it will kill them for sure. I'm not really sure that I understand the physiology behind it as many nuts experience freezing temps in the wild. Be that as it may, I killed 5 lbs of DCO acorns in my freezer. Every source I've read since then (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) confirms that.
Phil
==================================
Although the ground freezes, the temperature of the frozen ground, underneath leaves, snow, dead vegetation, etc, rarely gets much below 25 degrees or so, even if it's -20 in the air.

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by MDTrees
There is some evidence (I am trying to find the article) that if stored JUST below freezing, you can keep them alive for a year or so without them sprouting in the fridge...temps from about 29-32, such as the coldest part of the fridge where the milk freezes (well, OUR fridge does that).
==================================
Yes, you are right that they can handle those temps without killing the embryo. The problem is that few folks have freezer capabilities that can hold temps in that range.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by MDTrees
*IF* you could dig in the ground, they'd probably fare OK planted outside...from my research, if temps are below around 40, the roots will grow, but they won't send up a sprout until it gets warmer...but I would imagine your dirt is frozen muck under snow right now.
==================================
Ha!
We still have 24" of snow on the ground here and more on the way. Wish it warmed up here earlier, but like I said earlier, I am expecting snow in June this year after the winter we have had so far. Back to the temps in the single digits for the coming week. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by robsulm
indianasam44,
If you could follow up with that chestnut grower, I'm assuming that most if not all of his chestnuts germinated while in cold storage, given that he hydrated them immediately and stored them for 160 days. That certainly seems long enough for those chestnuts to not only germinate, but produce a signficant tap root.
Thanks!
==================================
You are quite right. I checked with the grower and the seeds do all have root radicles when they come out of storage. When they hit the warmer temperatures, sprouts appear very quickly (in about two weeks). They are looking for uniformity in growth so the seedlings can be sold in the fall and this method works well for them.

Tomorrow will mark the one month anniversary from when I put the chestnuts in the cells. They range in height from 2" to 13"; a wide range in growth.


I culled a couple yesterday because they only made a huge root and not much on top growth.

^^^^^
that big one in front has Branches ???(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) thats pretty impressive !

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by Murdog
^^^^^
that big one in front has Branches ???(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) thats pretty impressive !
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Looks like it's dampening off? Or another abnormality? ?? That growth form looks funky? keep an eye on the next bunch that get leaves. If the next ones look like that, you may have something going on. Just my 2 cents (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
The first year I did mine I had a bunch look like that and they were badly stunted, or slowly died/dampened off. Something to keep an eye on. ..

That large one was from January 2nd. On a side note, there were 5 of them from that batch. Three of its siblings went to Penn State for diagnosis all looking the same.

You picture looks just like mine this year. Stunted growth with some completely damping off. I have a few early ones that leafed out normally, but most of mine look just like yours this year. I'm hoping some will eventually develop normally, but it doesn't look good so far for me either...
Let us know if PSU isolates anything...

Psi got back to me. They said that they found no pathogens. The reason was overfertilization! I only put a small amount on, same as last year, but it stunted the roots. They said to either re-pot them or start new seeds. I re-potted them and giving them to my neighbors to throw in their sun room.
At least I can use up all the ones that have sprouted with 4" tap roots in the fridge.

I decided to take a few pics today while I had the lights up for watering. Here are the few I have that seem to be developing properly:

Last year 90% of my trees looked like that at this stage. Most of my trees are struggling too this year. Here is what most look like:

Thanks,
Jack

Hello everyone, this is my first post on the QDMA forums! Ive been reading for over a year and this place is a great source of information. My question to those of you that used the dry storage method how do you go from there to getting them to germinate? Did you float test them after the dry storage? When I took mine out of the crisper and put them in water they all floated, has anyone else had this happen? Did they dry out too much in there or can they be revived? How would you go about trying to bring them to life?
Thanks in advance!

Nice pits Jack, Why do you think your seedlings are struggling this year? Do you think it has anything to do with forcing them to wake up?
Welcome Smtn, did you float test your seeds before you put them into storage? I would probably soak them for a day and see if any sink. Don't give up on them yet (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I peeled the shell off a few and they sunk, should I peel all the shells and soak?

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Originally Posted by Smtn10pt
I peeled the shell off a few and they sunk, should I peel all the shells and soak?
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I don't think peeling them is getting you anywhere. If the nuts aren't ready to geminate you might actually be doing more damage then good.
From what i have followed, if you have stored your nuts without moisture they may have not completed stratification. I would say best bet is to soak them for at least a day, then stick the majority of them back into the fridge in some long leaf sphangnum. Keep a couple out and see if you can get them to germinate.
There are plenty others on here with more experience then me. Hopefully they will weight in as well.
Chad

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Originally Posted by Parker35
Nice pits Jack, Why do you think your seedlings are struggling this year? Do you think it has anything to do with forcing them to wake up?
Welcome Smtn, did you float test your seeds before you put them into storage? I would probably soak them for a day and see if any sink. Don't give up on them yet (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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If I had to guess, I would cite a couple things:
1) Trying to store them dry and then force the with warmth and moisture encouraged mold more than germination. Many nuts succumbed to mold and did not germinate. I'm guessing that many nuts that did germinate are fighting some kind of fungal issue since they are showing signs of damping out.
2) Using bleach to combat mold. I used no bleach on my first batch last year (stratified with moisture) and had no runts or damping out issues. The second batch showed some signs of mold so I used a light bleach solution. I had maybe 5% of that second batch that were runts or damped out. This year, I used a light bleach solution prophylactically before storing them dry. Also, when I did bring them out to germinate and had mold issues appear, I used bleach solution to individually wash off nuts. If you scroll back up in the thread far enough you will see I actually had a chemical burn on my fingers from doing this. I think it was an acid/base reaction. If it burnt my fingers, what did it do to the nuts?
I'm not sure which of these two things caused the problem or if it is a combination of them, but everything else is the same as last year.
Thanks,
jack

I put last years Dunstan seedlings in the ground back in December (sorry to make y'all jealous) on my property in Central Mississippi and planted 5 at the house in So. La.. So far the are looking healthy although dorment. Started a batch of Chinese chestnuts and Alleghanny Chinkapins. The Chinkapins went straight into the potting mix when I got them and I will plant them this spring. The chinese chestnuts spent 90 days in the fridge (dry storage) and I placed them in potting soil in 3 gallon root bags last week. Hopefully this works as well as last years Dunstans did.
Good luck everyone
P.S. next I am going to try apple and pear from seed

Two weeks ago, I moved 50 chestnut seeds from dry storage into moist potting soil inside gallon zip locs. Yesterday I pulled them and 49 of 50 had radicles. I planted in a flat tray with the same potting soil mixture. No mold. The one nut looks darker than the rest and may not germinate. The flat is now over a heat register and in front of a window. Will move to rootmaker 18 next weekend.
Transferred some more dry method nuts to more moist potting soil and into gallon zip locs. So far no sign of mold on anything. I did not do anything to the nuts except soak them for a few hours before putting them in storage late in the fall.

Just checked my Dunstans. It will be 3 weeks since the stems have emerged and the majority are between 3" and 9" tall and I am a couple of days from getting an explosion of leafs. Four of the 200 already have over 13 leafs each and I am getting anxious to see most of the grow room look small in the coming days from the vegetation.

 

[yoderjac]

My Chinese chestnuts have been in the fridge inside a Ziploc bag since October 1st. I placed a few in a container with potting soil about two weeks ago and no germination yet.
What am I doing wrong?

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Originally Posted by BBiondo
My Chinese chestnuts have been in the fridge inside a Ziploc bag since October 1st. I placed a few in a container with potting soil about two weeks ago and no germination yet.
What am I doing wrong?
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Dry or moisture stored?
(Cut from another thread) There is a small amount of discrepancy on the actual stratification process using the DRY method. Depending on the true amount of DRY storage humidity in the bag with the dry nuts can either slowly stratisfy, or actually make the nuts go dormant. I think the actual temp will affect this as well.
The nuts are still good, and viable, but the time it takes to germinate after moisture added will be different from person to person depending on several variables.*
I did a handful a month ago and they perked right up in no time taken out of dry storage when added moisture. Since then, I messed with the fridge temp after hearing of all the mold issues others were having and took out a batch since then to have them take much longer to show life. They are slowly perking up, but that slight change added 10-14 days to the germination. Lots of variables, as well as variations in the nut size.

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Originally Posted by bigeight
Dry or moisture stored?
(Cut from another thread) There is a small amount of discrepancy on the actual stratification process using the DRY method. Depending on the true amount of DRY storage humidity in the bag with the dry nuts can either slowly stratisfy, or actually make the nuts go dormant. I think the actual temp will affect this as well.
The nuts are still good, and viable, but the time it takes to germinate after moisture added will be different from person to person depending on several variables.*
I did a handful a month ago and they perked right up in no time taken out of dry storage when added moisture. Since then, I messed with the fridge temp after hearing of all the mold issues others were having and took out a batch since then to have them take much longer to show life. They are slowly perking up, but that slight change added 10-14 days to the germination. Lots of variables, as well as variations in the nut size.
==================================
They were stored dry. I had no mold issues and I cut one open to see how it looked inside and it was good.
Also 2 weeks ago I added sphagnum peat moss and some moisture to the rest of the nuts that are in the fridge in the bag and there are no signs of life yet as of today.

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Originally Posted by BBiondo
They were stored dry. I had no mold issues and I cut one open to see how it looked inside and it was good.
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To summarize cold stratification. Generally 60 days of cold stratification is required. The optimal moisture level for stratification is 65% (not sure how to measure that). If the moisture level is 10% or less basically stratification stops and the seed goes dormant. The seed is still fine and will keep but it is not stratifying. If the moisture level was between 10% and 65%, the seeds will stratify but it may require more time. Keep in mind that as Big8 says 60 days is probably a average since there is a lot of variation from nut to nut.
Given my issues with mold, I would not trust that you can germinate them in warm conditions without risking mold.
If I were in your situation, I would add damp long fiber sphagnum to your ziplock bags and germinate them in the fridge. I would find a container with a flat bottom that you can put inside the ziplock bag. Then orient your nuts with the "flat side down" and keep that orientation. Check them every day or two for a root radicle. As soon as you see a root radicle, I'd plant that nut.
I may be mold paranoid at this point. I used the dry method this year and then try to germinate the seed in moist warm conditions and had terrible mold issues. Not only did I loose a lot that did not germinate, many of those that germinated turned out to be runts rather than vigorous trees.
Good Luck,
Jack

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
To summarize cold stratification. Generally 60 days of cold stratification is required. The optimal moisture level for stratification is 65% (not sure how to measure that). If the moisture level is 10% or less basically stratification stops and the seed goes dormant. The seed is still fine and will keep but it is not stratifying. If the moisture level was between 10% and 65%, the seeds will stratify but it may require more time. Keep in mind that as Big8 says 60 days is probably a average since there is a lot of variation from nut to nut.
Given my issues with mold, I would not trust that you can germinate them in warm conditions without risking mold.
If I were in your situation, I would add damp long fiber sphagnum to your ziplock bags and germinate them in the fridge. I would find a container with a flat bottom that you can put inside the ziplock bag. Then orient your nuts with the "flat side down" and keep that orientation. Check them every day or two for a root radicle. As soon as you see a root radicle, I'd plant that nut.
I may be mold paranoid at this point. I used the dry method this year and then try to germinate the seed in moist warm conditions and had terrible mold issues. Not only did I loose a lot that did not germinate, many of those that germinated turned out to be runts rather than vigorous trees.
Good Luck,
Jack
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I will try this method with the other nuts. Luckily I have plenty of them to play around. Thanks.
BTW if anyone wants some Chinese chestnuts let me know as I have extra to spare.

Let me add to what Jack has said above. Chestnut seeds stratify best if fully hydrated. If they haven't come directly from the tree, i.e. within a couple of hours, they should be soaked in cold water for at least 24 hours or longer to ensure hydration. They then should be stored at 33 to 38 degrees for at least 60 days but longer is better, i.e. 90 days or more. They can be stored in one of two ways: (1) In a moistened medium of your choice in a sealed plastic bag if you want the seeds to germinate on their own "when they feel like it", or (2) With no added medium or moisture in a sealed plastic bag if you want to be able to control the germination time. Method (2) has been referred to in this and other threads as "dry storage" which is a misnomer since it implies no initial hydration. If either of these two methods fail for you, the seeds were probably not viable when you obtained them. Be aware that many growers do not know how to properly handle these nuts if they are to be used as seeds.

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Originally Posted by indianasam44
Let me add to what Jack has said above. Chestnut seeds stratify best if fully hydrated. If they haven't come directly from the tree, i.e. within a couple of hours, they should be soaked in cold water for at least 24 hours or longer to ensure hydration.
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That information was the missing tidbit, that a lot of us seem to have not picked up in the past discussions. I added wet peat moss to my bags a couple of weeks ago. Maybe I should pull them out soak them for 24 hrs and then put them back in the damp peat in the fridge?
Chris

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by Turkey Creek
That information was the missing tidbit, that a lot of us seem to have not picked up in the past discussions. I added wet peat moss to my bags a couple of weeks ago. Maybe I should pull them out soak them for 24 hrs and then put them back in the damp peat in the fridge?
Chris
==================================
I too wondered about that. I soaked mine prior to dry storage but really only long enough to see if they would float. About a month ago, I added damp moss to all of my nuts as I had unsuccessfully tried to germinate them after 60 days of cold dry storage.
Personally if I were you, I would soak half of them now or some smaller percentage depending on the # you have and see which way works better.

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Originally Posted by indianasam44
Let me add to what Jack has said above. Chestnut seeds stratify best if fully hydrated. If they haven't come directly from the tree, i.e. within a couple of hours, they should be soaked in cold water for at least 24 hours or longer to ensure hydration. They then should be stored at 33 to 38 degrees for at least 60 days but longer is better, i.e. 90 days or more. They can be stored in one of two ways: (1) In a moistened medium of your choice in a sealed plastic bag if you want the seeds to germinate on their own "when they feel like it", or (2) With no added medium or moisture in a sealed plastic bag if you want to be able to control the germination time. Method (2) has been referred to in this and other threads as "dry storage" which is a misnomer since it implies no initial hydration. If either of these two methods fail for you, the seeds were probably not viable when you obtained them. Be aware that many growers do not know how to properly handle these nuts if they are to be used as seeds.
==================================
And I'm beginning to wonder if that is not part of my mold problem buying them on ebay. There could be a big difference between how they were collected and stored prior to shipment from last year to this year.

What does everyone recommend for spacing? I had about 1.5 acres cleared for chestnuts but currently only have 16 trees (6 bought at Walmart last spring and planted at my house until today and 10 grown from seed last year that are in 1 gallon pots). I also have nuts I could direct plant
I just dug up the Walmart trees today and put them in large trash bags and the dirt ball is not staying together. I'm thinking by the time I get to the farm I'm going to basically have bare root trees (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Space them 35 to 40 feet apart. Sorry to hear about the Walmart purchase. Always buy local or grow your own. That is how I view produce and trees.

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Originally Posted by spur79
Space them 35 to 40 feet apart. Sorry to hear about the Walmart purchase. Always buy local or grow your own. That is how I view produce and trees.
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Thx on spacing. The trees are really my fault bc I bought last year knowing I didnt have a place for them yet.

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Originally Posted by Gator
Thx on spacing. The trees are really my fault bc I bought last year knowing I didnt have a place for them yet.
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Gator,
Here is another perspective on spacing. If you spending $25/tree and using fencing and fussing over them, wider spacing may make sense for the long run.
I'm taking a different approach. Chestnuts are wind pollenated and are much more productive with a pollenating partner. I'm planting in volume with only tubes for protection and no watering or fussing. Some trees will die and since I'm growing them from seed, once setup, the cost per tree is pretty small. So, I'm taking more of an orchard thinning approach.
Many chestnut orchards plant trees at a higher density to increase production at an earlier age. When the trees become large enough for the crowns to interfere with each other, they thin them.
I'm using this philosophy. I'm planting mine about 15-18 feet apart. If some die, I'll have 30'-40' spacing. If not, I'll worry about thinning 10+ years down the road when it becomes an issue. In the meantime, I'm looking for increased production.
Thanks,
Jack

I might have to give a couple dunstans a go up at my place in NY, acording to the site they are good to about zone 5, and I am in the middle of Chenango county, zone 5, with zone 6 not too far away.

Maybe you could move down to that long skinny part in the south shown in yellow as zone 7. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I decided I would grow a few trees to add to my collection on my property, and living in FL, I assumed I could follow some of you guys, without the need to have a greenhouse (my property is in MI). I ordered early from Chestnut Hill and received (IIRC) 15 or 20# of XL. I had my wife pick out about 20 nuts, put them in a ziploc, and throw them in the crisper. That was in early October. I made the mistake of not reading through the entire 3000 page thread (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) . Around the middle of January, I pulled out the chestnuts, and realized the ziploc had been sealed the whole time.(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) I put those chestnuts in damp peat, and back in the crisper. Additionally, I put about 20 more that had been stored in the original paper bag in peat moss as well. I left them an additional 4-5 weeks, and pulled them out. On about day 7 I found one had germinated! It was moved to an express cell out in our sunny 60-80 degree weather. Well, 10 or so days later, I have had a grand total of 2 more germinate. Interestingly, I have had essentially no mold on those that were dry stored in a ziploc, and serious mold on those dry stored in paper. Also, not surprisingly, all of the germinaters have been from the ziploc batch. My trees have a ticket up north for the 3rd week of April or so. My question is should I put them back in the frig for a week or 2, or just chalk it up as a learning experience. The main reason I wanted to delay germination was to avoid frost and outgrowing the little pots. In retrospect, we didn't have a hard frost all "winter" which is unusual here (my apologies to those who are still buried in 400" of snow)(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Also, on an unrelated note, we used the remaining eating chestnuts a week ago and they were incredible (much better than in October). My wife made chestnut pesto stuffed venison meatballs. One of the finest venison dishes I have ever had.

 

[yoderjac]

Sleeper,
Try soaking them for a couple days changing the water every day, then throw them in the fridge for a week. If they are viable you will see a tap root emerge. If they are not you will see the shell turn blackish and soft, and mold will develop. Good luck.

My wife made chestnut pesto stuffed venison meatballs. One of the finest venison dishes I have ever had.

THATS SOUNDS RIDICULOUS! PLEASE POST RECIPE(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
[/quote]

I have finally gotten into planting mode here at the house!
I stored all my nuts DRY since delivery. On ABOUT February 15th I added Moist sphagnum to 3 containers of around 150 nuts per bag. Last Tuesday March 4 I pulled one bag and put it out in room temperature to jump start some to send to a forum member that had issues with his batch and wanted to get some started. By Friday I had 30 of the 150 in the container sprout a radical, I had 1 nut with mold starting. after further inspection, it had a tiny nick in it probably from harvesting and the mold started there.
I left for the weekend, on Monday I checked and had another 20 sprout from the room temperature container. Bringing the total to 50 out of 150 from the room temp container. I believe that every day that goes by without a root, the chance of mold goes UP.
I checked my containers with moist spaghnum that were STILL in the fridge to check for life. The 1st container had 44 out of about 150 sprouting radicals and no mold. The containers that I had less spaghnum in, and closer contact of nut to nut only had 5-6 in each container with a radical. I definitely had more spaghnum in the container that had the higher germination rate in the fridge.
So, I am getting ALMOST the same rate of germination from the cold storage ones as the room temperature ones with probably a fraction of the risk of mold, IF I put a decent amount of spaghnum and don't skimp on it like I did with the others.
I think the others in cold storage will continue to pop in the next couple weeks with a lot less stress on myself with worries of mold.
The other thing, is I have these in containers flat side down. When they pop in cold storage, the root breaks and maybe curls down a 1/16th of an inch if I check every week (past experience).
The ones that I have in room temperature I can check daily or every other day and some that popped in my absence could have a radical pushing 2" long ! So I have to check on them almost daily. With 2 young children, balancing work, etc. having another daily chore is definitely something I DON'T need (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I didn't measure/document humidity, temp, etc, so this is a very crudely run experiment. I just wanted to share my observations (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by Murdog
My wife made chestnut pesto stuffed venison meatballs. One of the finest venison dishes I have ever had.
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THATS SOUNDS RIDICULOUS! PLEASE POST RECIPE(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

It was indeed ridiculous. It was sort of a made up recipe, but she got the idea for venison meatballs from the Nevada Foodies website, although it is listed there for elk (mozzarella stuffed with a red sauce, also excellent). They have a lot of interesting things to try out with wild game. She made chestnut pesto, and mixed it in with the venison before making the meatballs, and served the meatballs on angel hair pasta which also had pesto in it. I can get more specifics if you need them. It helps here having a year-round garden. If you are a red wine drinker, you probably know how well it goes with chestnuts. The sweet nutty flavor mixed with the venison along with the other pesto flavors washed down with red wine was both unique and outstanding.
As far as the Dunstans go, I had another germination today, for a grand total of 4! I felt like I should crack some champagne. The good news about making so many mistakes is that I won't forget them for next year. Next year's plan is to ship a bunch of nuts to bigeight in October, and pick up my seedlings when I fly up to MI in April(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) . If he is not available, I will soak my chestnuts for an hour or two, and put them into slightly damp peat moss in ziplocs with some holes punched. They will go in the crisper until they germinate. They will then go into the express cells. If we get a rare frost, I will bring them inside. That is what I should have done these past few months, but you live and learn. Thanks again to everyone for sharing ideas. Eventually this stuff will become easy.
[/quote]

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Originally Posted by sleeper
THATS SOUNDS RIDICULOUS! PLEASE POST RECIPE(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
It was indeed ridiculous. It was sort of a made up recipe, but she got the idea for venison meatballs from the Nevada Foodies website, although it is listed there for elk (mozzarella stuffed with a red sauce, also excellent). They have a lot of interesting things to try out with wild game. She made chestnut pesto, and mixed it in with the venison before making the meatballs, and served the meatballs on angel hair pasta which also had pesto in it. I can get more specifics if you need them. It helps here having a year-round garden. If you are a red wine drinker, you probably know how well it goes with chestnuts. The sweet nutty flavor mixed with the venison along with the other pesto flavors washed down with red wine was both unique and outstanding.
As far as the Dunstans go, I had another germination today, for a grand total of 4! I felt like I should crack some champagne. The good news about making so many mistakes is that I won't forget them for next year. Next year's plan is to ship a bunch of nuts to bigeight in October, and pick up my seedlings when I fly up to MI in April(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) . If he is not available, I will soak my chestnuts for an hour or two, and put them into slightly damp peat moss in ziplocs with some holes punched. They will go in the crisper until they germinate. They will then go into the express cells. If we get a rare frost, I will bring them inside. That is what I should have done these past few months, but you live and learn. Thanks again to everyone for sharing ideas. Eventually this stuff will become easy.

Bring it!!!....(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
[/quote]

I would like to try growing some chestnuts. Ive looked at the place in Pike cty Il and it seems they have none. Does anyone know where I may be able to find some or anyone willing to sell a few. I would be eventually planting in West central Illinois so if one type is better than another that advice would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks, TC

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by tcook8296
I would like to try growing some chestnuts. Ive looked at the place in Pike cty Il and it seems they have none. Does anyone know where I may be able to find some or anyone willing to sell a few. I would be eventually planting in West central Illinois so if one type is better than another that advice would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks, TC
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Check with Empire Chestnut. They may have some Chinese nuts. You're 5 months too late to start looking.

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Originally Posted by tcook8296
I would like to try growing some chestnuts. Ive looked at the place in Pike cty Il and it seems they have none. Does anyone know where I may be able to find some or anyone willing to sell a few. I would be eventually planting in West central Illinois so if one type is better than another that advice would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks, TC
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Send me a PM (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I have some in dry storage, and some in damp spaghnum. They should all be stratified, so whatever your uses are, I should have some that can help you; )

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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
Check with Empire Chestnut. They may have some Chinese nuts. You're 5 months too late to start looking.
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Yes, I missed the boat

I have extremely bad news for those of you in the north that planted the chestnuts outside. I just pulled 4 out of my garden to see if they would germinate and 2 of them had mold on the outside and 2 that didn't have any mold. I dissected them and the 2 with mold on them were squishy with a lot of black. The two without mold, 1 had a lot of black spots on the bottom and split apart while I was taking the brown skin off the nut and I saw the black went to the center of the nut.
That leaves me with 1 nut that may be promising since it didn't have any mold or black spots on it. I have it soaking in water right now and I will soak it for 2 days then plant it. Not looking good so far for the hopeful tree garden outside. I am hoping they all aren't a complete loss!
Spur

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Originally Posted by spur79
I have extremely bad news for those of you in the north that planted the chestnuts outside.... I am hoping they all aren't a complete loss!
Spur
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Thanks for the updates Spur. I hope you get some to grow,.
I planted 40 chestnut seeds in my garden box this past fall. I've been wondering how they were wintering over but I can't get to them until we thaw. They are ice cubes right now. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) From what I understand they "should" be able to handle the frost if the moisture content is high enough. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
One note on Mold. I had some mold problems with my DOC's this fall because I stored them too wet. I treated them several times but almost half the nuts would keep getting moldy. I gave up in those nuts and tossed them in a pale with peat moss in it, planning on throwing it over the fence later. Well, I dumped that bucket out the other day and almost all of those DCO's had sprouted and were doing pretty well. I don't know if they will grow but I have moved the good ones into storage for the spring. If you have some with mold, maybe all is not lost IF that is all you have to work with.
Chad

 

[yoderjac]

Chad,
Thank you for the optimism!

Could someone message me or post on here the guy who sells the Dunstan seeds on EBay?
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by titan23_87
Could someone message me or post on here the guy who sells the Dunstan seeds on EBay?
Thank you.
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I think it is bigeight.

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Originally Posted by spur79
I think it is bigeight.
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NO, I don't sell on ebay. I have sold some extra nuts to a couple members here, but don't have anything up on ebay or ANY othere sites (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by titan23_87
Could someone message me or post on here the guy who sells the Dunstan seeds on EBay?
Thank you.
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heres one <http://www.ebay.com/itm/15-Hybrid-Ch...em461c48 b97d

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Originally Posted by titan23_87
Could someone message me or post on here the guy who sells the Dunstan seeds on EBay?
Thank you.
==================================
I've bought them from rfarmer20k9 on eBay for two years now with great success. He's been selling them on eBay 10+ years. I doubt he has any this time of year.

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Originally Posted by Redonthehead
I've bought them from rfarmer20k9 on eBay for two years now with great success. He's been selling them on eBay 10+ years. I doubt he has any this time of year.
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That's the guy I had heard of. Just wanted to save it for next year. Thank you!

That is who I used. I got great results last year, but mold like crazy this year. I blame most of it on my technique changes, but mold could also start at the source. I plan to use a different source next year to see if that makes a difference.
Did anyone buy from him this year and have no mold issues?
Thanks,
Jack

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
That is who I used. I got great results last year, but mold like crazy this year. I blame most of it on my technique changes, but mold could also start at the source. I plan to use a different source next year to see if that makes a difference.
Did anyone buy from him this year and have no mold issues?
Thanks,
Jack
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Doesn't really answer your question, but may apply. This is year number 3 for me getting chestnuts from Chestnut ridge of pike county. I am having lots of mold issues this year too. This is the first year I did a bleach bath before stratification.
Did you use bleach last year?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
That is who I used. I got great results last year, but mold like crazy this year. I blame most of it on my technique changes, but mold could also start at the source. I plan to use a different source next year to see if that makes a difference.
Did anyone buy from him this year and have no mold issues?
Thanks,
Jack
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10 lbs in peat since last October. About 200 sprouting now. No visible mold thus far.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
That is who I used. I got great results last year, but mold like crazy this year. I blame most of it on my technique changes, but mold could also start at the source. I plan to use a different source next year to see if that makes a difference.
Did anyone buy from him this year and have no mold issues?
Thanks,
Jack
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I purchased from rfarmer last fall... used sphagnum moss &amp; had good germination and no mold... Can't control germination time as well with the moss, as I know from previous posts that you were trying to do (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
JQ

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Originally Posted by THERAPY
Doesn't really answer your question, but may apply. This is year number 3 for me getting chestnuts from Chestnut ridge of pike county. I am having lots of mold issues this year too. This is the first year I did a bleach bath before stratification.
Did you use bleach last year?
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Last year, I did not use bleach on the first batch. I planted them in 60 days without waiting for a root radicle to appear. They were outstanding. I kept watching the remaining nuts in the fridge. I started to see some signs of mold so I used the bleach solution. That second batch started to produce root radicles so I was forced to plant them. I got a lot more runts in this second batch, and I'm blaming the bleach.
When I had mold issues this year I tried using bleach and was washing off nuts individually. I actually got a chemical burn. I think it was a base/acid reaction between the bleach and the nut. If it burned my skin, who knows what it did to the nuts. I won't be using bleach again.
You are the first one that used Pike County that has reported significant mold issues. Perhaps the source is not the culprit. I'm sure my attempts to force germination was the primary culprit this year. I'll still have a reasonable number of trees, but the percentages are way down.
Thanks,
Jack

Hard to beat using straight peat moss and having it just damp to keep from getting mold.
Only mold issues I get with that method are with nuts that are not viable in the first place.

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Originally Posted by letemgrow
Hard to beat using straight peat moss and having it just damp to keep from getting mold.
Only mold issues I get with that method are with nuts that are not viable in the first place.
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Yep, attempting to delay germination was clearly not worth it for me.

This whole mold issue is very interesting. With my DCOs, I stored them bare with visible moisture collecting in the bottom of the bag, only halfway sealed and stored for around 90 days. Upon removal, nearly a quarter had visible mold showing. I tossed every moldy nut back in the bag and threw it on a shelf out of view. After two weeks of sitting on the shelf I grabbed the bag and discovered that almost every nut had a root sticking out. Heck, several were even stuck together from mold but they were sending out roots none the less. Now I only planted them about a week ago so I have no data to show weather or not they'll produce a healthy tree but it was quite a shock after reading about everyone else's encounters with mold. Curious if this would occur with chestnuts too.

 

[yoderjac]

A few of my chestnuts with mold produced root radicles and were planted. Some produced top growth but it was clearly stunted.

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Originally Posted by Twig
This whole mold issue is very interesting. With my DCOs, I stored them bare with visible moisture collecting in the bottom of the bag, only halfway sealed and stored for around 90 days. Upon removal, nearly a quarter had visible mold showing. I tossed every moldy nut back in the bag and threw it on a shelf out of view. After two weeks of sitting on the shelf I grabbed the bag and discovered that almost every nut had a root sticking out. Heck, several were even stuck together from mold but they were sending out roots none the less. Now I only planted them about a week ago so I have no data to show weather or not they'll produce a healthy tree but it was quite a shock after reading about everyone else's encounters with mold. Curious if this would occur with chestnuts too.
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Twig,
Bleach or no bleach?
I also have DCO acorns this year and last. They were they only thing I gave a bleach bath to last year and I had very poor results with lots of mold/slime and my dunstans did greatest last year but they didn't get a bleach bath. I used bleach this year on the DCOs again and on the dunstan chestnuts for the first time and am having mold/slime issues with both. I also have sawtooth, sauls, white and chinkapin acorns that got a bleach bath this year, but am not having any mold issues with them.
I have read several articles that recommend using bleach to combat mold. I had several chestnuts the prior 2 years that had some mold, but it was starting from the inside because the nuts were not viable and were rotting. This year the chestnuts appear to still be viable but the mold appears to start on the outside. Germination is also very poor this year with my chestnuts.
There will be no bleach for me next year.

ok I just received a batch of 18 from a generous source they are sprouted and im in zone 6 should I plant outside now in the 18 cell rootmakers

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Originally Posted by muggs
ok I just received a batch of 18 from a generous source they are sprouted and im in zone 6 should I plant outside now in the 18 cell rootmakers
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Any chance of frosts or snow? I'd plant in rootmakers and keep inside until the danger is over.

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Originally Posted by muggs
ok I just received a batch of 18 from a generous source they are sprouted and im in zone 6 should I plant outside now in the 18 cell rootmakers
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Certainly not in South Jersey. I'm in VA zone 7a. I'll keep my chestnuts under lights until early April. At that point, I'll take them outside and begin acclimating them to full light. I'll watch the temps closely and bring them in if frost is in the forecast. About mid-April, we have less than 10% chance of frost. At that point, I'll begin planting them directly from the cells into their final location.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, things are improving here. In the last 3 days, I have had another 8 or so sprout a taproot. My first to germinate also just put up top growth. It tripled my occupied rootmaker cells. Next year, they will go into slightly moistened peat, and in the crisper when they arrive until germination. Even after botching up multiple steps this year, I should still get the dozen or so seedlings I need. Thanks to everyone for sharing your successes and failures on this thread. We will all be better next year(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

someone please post picture of depth of planting in a rootmaker im putting them in a s faceing window for two weeks till frost is gone

Press them in to the medium so the radical is JUST below the surface of the soil, but will keep in contact with moisture while growing out, and down.

As the root goes down, it will slowly and slightly push the nut level with the surface, start to turn pink, split, then top growth will appear in a week or so (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by muggs
someone please post picture of depth of planting in a rootmaker im putting them in a s faceing window for two weeks till frost is gone
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I plant mine slightly differently. I first scoop up media with the cell. It is in loosely and usually just below the top. I then place my nut in the corner with the pointed end in the center of the cell. That puts both the root and stem in the middle of the cell. I then press the nut into the media until it the top of it is about even with the media or slightly lower. Next I grab a handful of media and sprinkle it on top until the nut is fully covered. The media is slight heaping over the top of the cell at this point. I then take my fingers and randomly tap on the surface making slight dimples in the top. I found that this makes little pockets that hold water so it can soak in when watered. If I leave a smooth surface, sometimes water tends to run off instead of soaking in making it harder to water.
Other folks have good success with the nut on top. I find this tends to make the nut dry out faster. I've had a few where the nut cracked before the tree was far enough along and it died. So, I've taken to covering mine.

Perfect:d (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Hoping to be able to direct seed 100 or so chestnut seeds sometime towards the end of April. I will be using tree tubes with a lumite mat. I deep should I plant the nut?
Thanks for the help...(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by 2ndHand
Hoping to be able to direct seed 100 or so chestnut seeds sometime towards the end of April. I will be using tree tubes with a lumite mat. I deep should I plant the nut?
Thanks for the help...(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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1/2 to 1 inch deep is about right. Here is a link to a great article on <http://acffarms.org/papers/Growing Chestnut from Seed - Long Instructions.pdf irect seeding chestnuts. I found it helpful.
</a><http://acffarms.org/papers/Growing%2...structions.pdf

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Originally Posted by 2ndHand
Hoping to be able to direct seed 100 or so chestnut seeds sometime towards the end of April. I will be using tree tubes with a lumite mat. I deep should I plant the nut?
Thanks for the help...(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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I follow the recommendation in the mongraph from the ACF. Obviously, many have had success with surface planting as above. They do say to place the seed 1/2-1&quot; deep. As big as these nuts are, that would put them pretty close to the surface, but they recommend covering with the planting medium.
I would think that surface planting in the field would make it easier for the rodents to find them.
http://www.acf.org/pdfs/resources/planting_manual.pdf

Parker35 &amp; phopkinsiii, Many thanks for the article link - just what I was looking for. I think I will try the tulip planter as mentioned in the article.
Thanks again!!

I plant them like bigeight. Part of the fun is beating cabin fever. I enjoy watching them develop. If planted deep you get to wait until top growth breaks ground. Boring! Do chestnuts plant themselves in the wild? They just get tucked/wedged between or under some leaves on damp soil. I plant them after a centimeter or two has germinated as they germinate. I place the chestnut on top of the soil and cover the developing radicle just enough to keep the sunlight off. When they start to kickstand themselves out of the soil I just enjoy the show. I do have a pump sprayer and mist them daily to keep the top moist, I do a deep watering a few times a week as needed.
On stratification storage mold; when recieved I sink test, then bag. 50 per bag, no moss, no added moisture. They are dried on paper towel and thrown 50 per bag. I keep the bags open in a vegitable crisper until any noticeable heavy condensation dries off. I then close them. There may be a few drops of water in the bottom but no standing pool of water. I'd say I store them almost dry. The crisper is dedicated to chestnuts and fridge holds only sodas/an extra basement fridge. So limited food/mold spores floating around. Never had mold during stratification. If my bags are too wet they will germinate at will around march/april. I buy and fridge my chestnuts mid October.

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Originally Posted by Heavy26R
I plant them like bigeight. Part of the fun is beating cabin fever. I enjoy watching them develop. If planted deep you get to wait until top growth breaks ground. Boring! Do chestnuts plant themselves in the wild? They just get tucked/wedged between or under some leaves on damp soil. I plant them after a centimeter or two has germinated as they germinate. I place the chestnut on top of the soil and cover the developing radicle just enough to keep the sunlight off. When they start to kickstand themselves out of the soil I just enjoy the show. I do have a pump sprayer and mist them daily to keep the top moist, I do a deep watering a few times a week as needed.
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Sometimes after they start to kickstand I'll add more soil then to make sure there isn't a divit for the water to run if I notice it doing that. But 9/10 I just leave it. Like stated, I don't THINK it matters, (not sure why it would) so I might as well enjoy it a little more. Plus I'll know ASAP if one stalls/or didn't do it's thing (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Heavy26R, Dude! Is that a fishing lure in your belly button in your avatar? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

 

[yoderjac]

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Bent over at the wrong time when a buddy made a sidearm cast.
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I was able to Push the hook back out through the skin so I could cut off the barb.
Just like on a fish, the barb works extremely well preventing hook pullout. Accidents happen.
Good excuse to get my tetanus immunization up-to-date.
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Dunstans, English oaks from MI, &quot;giant&quot; burr oaks from MO
Nowhere near the scale some of you grow on (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

^^^^^^ouch! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

It is pretty easy to get hooked on growing trees from seed! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
It is pretty easy to get hooked on growing trees from seed! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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Originally Posted by bigeight

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You're right! When they are that easy....they are pretty lame...(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Heavy26R,
After the stratification period and your sealed bags, what do you do to initiate germination? Are you planting into rootmaker cells or directly in the field?
Great job on the hook removal!

Been reading the QDMA forums for a couple of years now ..especially the forums on growing chestnuts. I've been planting Dunstan and American chestnuts on our place in northeast Texas for over a year now. Last fall I planted about 4 15 gallon (12-15foot) trees that flowered out quote nicely this year. Plan to go up next week to see if there are any nut burs. Also have about 6 15 gallon trees and the 10 here at the house in Houston waiting for fall planting. There are a few burs on these trees where I plan on planting the nuts this fall. I also have about 19 Dunstan seedlings I had leftover from what I didn't sell on eBay that I planted from seed back in February that now range from 2 - 5 feet tall. I have American seedlings growing in pots that I ordered from IndianaSam on eBay and some that were donated by the American chestnut Foundation. Rather than planting in individual pots I did a lot of seedlings (10-35) in large 15 - 30 gallon pots and they are doing great and it's more cost effective. I have between 40 and 50 pots here at the house waiting for fall planting. Besides chestnuts I have Alleghany chinquapin, white oaks, shumard oaks, bur oaks, overcup oaks, chinquapin oaks, (fruiting) paw paws and more...growing trees from seed and in pots can be addicting...lol. I'll post some pics later...

A few pics of Dunstans and a potted paw paw tree
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[yoderjac]

A couple of youtube videos I made...

took a walk after dinner and went through Mills reservation by me and stumbled upon a surprise. Looks like stump re growth as I did not notice any mature fruiting trees in the area. just a few hundred yards up the trail you can view the NYC skyline.

Cool....I'm in Texas which is way out of the natural range of American chestnut, although I grow them on our place. Would've been cool to stumble upon one in the wild. I did however stumble upon a large Allegheny chinquapin last weekend which is the shrub version of the American chestnut and it is native to east TX. It was loaded with burs...hopefully I can get some of the nuts before the wildlife cleans everything up...Had issues uploading the pics I took

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Originally Posted by mikmaze
took a walk after dinner and went through Mills reservation by me and stumbled upon a surprise. Looks like stump re growth as I did not notice any mature fruiting trees in the area. just a few hundred yards up the trail you can view the NYC skyline.

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Give that puppy some light!!! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I wish it was a bit further in off the path, that thing is right along side or I might be able to give it a bit more light. Surrounding woods are pretty diverse, maple, red oak white oak, birch, white pine, smooth and shagbark hickory, ash, beech, linden, witch hazel. Browse line is hard, deer just hang out in the park and watch the hikers go by.

I always get excited when I find an American Chestnut...then sadness creeps in! Look at your pictures, one can't help but wonder what took place, how old was the original tree,how long will it continue to send up shoots etc?
There has been great progress made in developing a blight resistant tree, but what about all the millions of trees that lay dormant because of the stinking blight. Hope may never come for them. What a tragic loss!!

Has anyone here planted chestnut tree's in south/west Alabama. I have som e land there and thought this would be a great addition to my land for my son &amp; I for hunting.

I have 15 Dunstans growing in RM 18 cells. The vast majority are tamping off on the initial growth right when they start to start leaves and then they are resprouting from the nut. Any clue what is causing this?
This is my first time using the Promix BX if that means anything. Also first time I'm using 4' florescent lights.
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One more pic.
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Some type of fungus gator? Maybe the mix is too moist too often?

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Originally Posted by letemgrow
Some type of fungus gator? Maybe the mix is too moist too often?
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That'd be my guess as well. Are you letting the cells completely dry out between waterings? Once they send up top growth, I only end up watering about once every 4-5 days (ish).

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Originally Posted by bigeight
That'd be my guess as well. Are you letting the cells completely dry out between waterings? Once they send up top growth, I only end up watering about once every 4-5 days (ish).
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Watering about as often as I used to with the Miracle grow soil so I can't imagine it's too much. I've lost several peach trees that never sent up top growth, was actually wondering if I'm watering too little.
Went against my own advice by switching, had it figured out using the frowned on soil mix...
BTW, the Nuttall Oaks beside the chestnuts are doing great if that helps isolate the issue.

So this is my third year trying chestnuts and this seems to be working. First year, I stratified and placed in tubs. When it started getting to hot in the greenhouse I put the tubs outside with hardware cloth over them. I left it off by mistake one weekend and the racoons and squirrels destroyed them. Year 2, basically the same thing but this time they got into the greenhouse. I had a very slow/low germination rate. This year I took them out of the fridge but left them in the ziplock bag (unzipped). I wait until the nuts germinate and then I plant them. After a week I put them back in the fridge for a week and take them out again for a week. This seems to be working well for me. I just wanted to post this in case anyone else is having issues with the nuts actually germinating. You might want to give this a try.

From my experience this year, I would say that some are just VERY picky when it comes to watering.....I have had a bear of a time with DCOs and chinese chestnuts. The dunstans seems to be OK as do all my other oaks.
I have gone to waiting till the last minute to water.....I think I actually may have killed one due to lack of water.....but not sure yet. It was getting pretty &quot;limp&quot; before I noticed it and now it's still not looking too hot.

Well, I definitely didn't water too soon this time.
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On a different note. The Nuttal Oaks are doing great.
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Originally Posted by Gator
Well, I definitely didn't water too soon this time.
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On a different note. The Nuttal Oaks are doing great.
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I realize this is an older post, but a great thread!!
What fluorescent bulbs are you using? Your leaves look too large and floppy and stringy (starved for light). T5's may be a better choice with a grow bulb.
Also, do you have a fan running in the room?
Whenever growing indoors I put a fairly powerful oscillating fan in the room, on a timer, oscillating across the seedlings. You can have it on for an hour, then off for an hour, on low power at first, then on/off...etc. Eventually the plants will be strong enough for it to stay on for hours at a time, then off for hours at a time on HIGH setting. You want it to beat them up to a certain extent, it will make seedlings and plants stronger and heartier. Also, the moving air will help with any fungus issues you may be having.
Most people who attempt to grow indoors are too careful with the plants their first time. Nature beats seedlings up, it makes them tougher, you need to recreate this (while still keeping the plants alive obviously).

 

[yoderjac]

I would say this about the amount of air - many timers allow for 30 minute intervals.
I use 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the afternoon. I run an electric heater that has a switch to make it cycle.
A heater with too much air flow will dry the chestnuts out that are closest to the heater.
I used rootmaker 18 express trays - always rotate your seedling so one group is not always way away from the heater or too close to heater.
I approved of an oscillating fan - just remember air and temperature will impact how often you need to water.
Lesson learned - I turn a switch on the thermostat in the wrong direction once by mistake. I nuked about 8 seedlings that were healthy. Only two recovered and six got sent to the graveyard.
My grow box had 6 rootmaker trays - set 3 wide from the heater and fan.
This is a great thread and in another thread I gave Grapevine praise for starting this one.
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

END OF QDMA FORM THREAD TRANSFER

 

[H20fwler]

Thanks for posting this up...TON of good info.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks.

 

[yoderjac]

On occasion I've had a chestnut or AC that is growing just fine. It could be anywhere from 3 to 8 inches tall when suddenly the leaves all dry out, get crispy, and it dies. I've done a post mortem on these trees and they seem to have some kind of disease process going on. I don't know what the pathogen is, but my best description is "carrot root". The root appears swollen like a carrot with very few lateral roots compared to a normal tree.

I recently had this happen to one of my ACs. I'm not sure what causes it. At any rate, I've kept these trees around in the past simply because I was too lazy to get rid of them. None have ever produced any new growth and were eventually culled. I was going to get rid of this one but I notices a couple green buds. I decided to experiment with it. I cut off the top of the tree just above a green bud and here is what happened:

Sorry the picture is a bit fuzzy, but you can see the new growth. I have enough ACs that I'm sure this tree will eventually be culled, but I decided to experiment with it so I'll watch how it does. Here is my theory as to what is happening. The disease process, whatever it is, seems to only occur on a small percentage of my trees. That "carrot root" severely limits the number of those tiny lateral roots which are what actually uptake water and nutrients. As long as the nut is feeding the tree, the top growth looks fine. When the nut is exhausted, the tiny root system cannot support the top growth and the leaves desiccate and the tree dies. By cutting off a good percentage of the growth, it appears the root system was sufficient to produce new growth.

When this occurs, it usually starts with a few leaves desiccating. I wonder what happens if I recognize this early and prune the tree just above the lowest green bud to rebalance it. I wonder if the tree will eventually recover from "carrot root" or if it will always be an under performing tree.

Thanks,

Jack