Growing Chestnut Trees from Chestnuts - Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gator
Here's a pic of my chestnuts from yesterday. 10 of them are doing really well.
MISSING PICTURE - (Original post had picture as an attachment rather than a link)
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Gator,
You have a very understanding wife. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Has she asked if you're going to be doing this again next year?

Here's a few Chinese, American and Dunstans I have with some other trees.
I added some sulfure and osmocote this year and it has helped.
Erik

I have several Dunstan's now in either 1 gallon or 3 gallon round rootmakers. I'm thinking of carrying over several this winter because I doubt I get them all planted this fall. What preparations should I be thinking about for preparing and getting them through a cold snowy winter?

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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
I have several Dunstan's now in either 1 gallon or 3 gallon round rootmakers. I'm thinking of carrying over several this winter because I doubt I get them all planted this fall. What preparations should I be thinking about for preparing and getting them through a cold snowy winter?
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I don't get as cold as you do but I have dug a trench and put my pots in the trench with hay around them and they have done well.
Erik

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Originally Posted by erik metzger
I don't get as cold as you do but I have dug a trench and put my pots in the trench with hay around them and they have done well.
Erik
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What about mice and vole damage?

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
What about mice and vole damage?
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Maybe someone with more experience can help but I have only done this in my above ground garden box in my back yard.
Erik

Got some hybrids going, lower leaves are looking yellow and some are wilting, upper leaves look good and green and new buds are popping. Is this over watering? It been super hot the last couple days so I have been watering daily, they are about 2.5 feet tall right now. If pics will help I will get pics.

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Originally Posted by homegrownbucks
Got some hybrids going, lower leaves are looking yellow and some are wilting, upper leaves look good and green and new buds are popping. Is this over watering? It been super hot the last couple days so I have been watering daily, they are about 2.5 feet tall right now. If pics will help I will get pics.
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How much direct sun are they getting?

I believe just a few hours of late morning sun and no direct afternoon sun. I'm not 100% on that, but I was surely keeping them in a spot where they wouldn't get baked on all day. Maybe I should put a couple in less sun and see if they green up more?

I wintered my Dunstan seedlings in 7 gallon trappers last winter. I just put 36 inch window screen on each tree. dug a 12 inch deep pit, put the bags in and buried them. when I planted in spring I just left the screen on.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by homegrownbucks
I believe just a few hours of late morning sun and no direct afternoon sun. I'm not 100% on that, but I was surely keeping them in a spot where they wouldn't get baked on all day. Maybe I should put a couple in less sun and see if they green up more?
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If they're not in direct sun then I'm guessing yiu're overwatering. One thing you could do to test how wet the soil is that you could have a pot filled with the same soil minus the seedling. Water it the same you would the seedling. When in doubt about the soil scoop down into that pot and check. Then fill it back in. I doubt you will need to be watering every day. We had 6 days of 90+ last week. I watered twice. You could also get a soil moisture meter too.

How can this be?
I have been watering all my Dunstan's even though 40 of them looked dead as a door nail, while a pile of them are trying to come out of the vented tubes. Now I have a few of the dead trees sporting a couple of new shoots coming out of the base of the tree.
What the heck is going on now? They must not really be dead?

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Originally Posted by MOBuckChaser
How can this be?
I have been watering all my Dunstan's even though 40 of them looked dead as a door nail, while a pile of them are trying to come out of the vented tubes. Now I have a few of the dead trees sporting a couple of new shoots coming out of the base of the tree.
What the heck is going on now? They must not really be dead?
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Sounds like they were stressed in some way and that made them die back to the bases and start over. Chestnuts do that better than most any tree.
Lots of trees will top die for different types of stress and then re-sprout to start again when conditions are better. Could have been heat, water, the way they were planted, hard pan, you name it, hard telling (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Did the ones that died back get more sun than the ones that were still growing? Sometimes you can't explain why some die back and some do not. After planting 1000's of seedlings, i've seen some die back right next to others that were growing like gang busters on the same site. Then in 3 years, they are all even again.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by MOBuckChaser
How can this be?
I have been watering all my Dunstan's even though 40 of them looked dead as a door nail, while a pile of them are trying to come out of the vented tubes. Now I have a few of the dead trees sporting a couple of new shoots coming out of the base of the tree.
What the heck is going on now? They must not really be dead?
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As long as the roots aren't dead even though the top may be these trees are famous for sending out "stump sprouts." I even get these "stump sprouts" on what are otherwise perfectly healthy young trees.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by MOBuckChaser
How can this be?
I have been watering all my Dunstan's even though 40 of them looked dead as a door nail, while a pile of them are trying to come out of the vented tubes. Now I have a few of the dead trees sporting a couple of new shoots coming out of the base of the tree.
What the heck is going on now? They must not really be dead?
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The chestnuts that I have been playing around with (Dunstans, seeds from Larry (IN) and some Americans from Itasca Greenhouse) seem to have all kinds of weird behaviors. I had some that I planted last year and appeared dead this spring, they were nice 3' seedlings grown from seed I got from Larry, checked them a few weeks later and new shoots came up from the ground as you describe. My initial guess was they winter killed.
I've decided I'm just about ready to throw in the towel on chestnuts unless I see some results. They're just kind of sputtering around and in my opinion beginning to become not worth the time, effort or resources. Maybe they're just not cut out for my area, I do know there are plenty of other things we can grow that do give us good results. That's just my take.

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Originally Posted by letemgrow
Sounds like they were stressed in some way and that made them die back to the bases and start over. Chestnuts do that better than most any tree.
Lots of trees will top die for different types of stress and then re-sprout to start again when conditions are better. Could have been heat, water, the way they were planted, hard pan, you name it, hard telling (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Did the ones that died back get more sun than the ones that were still growing? Sometimes you can't explain why some die back and some do not. After planting 1000's of seedlings, i've seen some die back right next to others that were growing like gang busters on the same site. Then in 3 years, they are all even again.
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Not one thing was done different from planting to watering. I have 4 rows of 25. And we may have 3 good trees then 1 bad, then 2 good and 2 bad in any one given row. No rhime or reason to what has happened. All are in vented tubes, all in full sun. Here is the picture.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by MOBuckChaser
Not one thing was done different from planting to watering. I have 4 rows of 25. And we may have 3 good trees then 1 bad, then 2 good and 2 bad in any one given row. No rhime or reason to what has happened. All are in vented tubes, all in full sun. Here is the picture.
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Must have just been too much shock for some of them. Was not water or sun from the looks of things.

the chinese chestnuts I started from seed late this spring look like they will be 2-3ft by fall (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
now its just years of patient waiting...

hi,
I have two dunstan chestnut seedlings about 3 feet tall in pots as we are undecided about where to put them on our property, my question is can I let them go dormant in the pots and then put them in the garage(unheated but insulated) for the winter?
There are currently in regular two gallon pots with drain holes on the side and bottom.
My plan is to grow them in pots next season and plant in ground fall 2014.
Would they be better in a root maker pot vs the standard ones?
Thanks,
Snorkel
Milwaukee WI

Quote:
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Originally Posted by snorkel
hi,
I have two dunstan chestnut seedlings about 3 feet tall in pots as we are undecided about where to put them on our property, my question is can I let them go dormant in the pots and then put them in the garage(unheated but insulated) for the winter?
There are currently in regular two gallon pots with drain holes on the side and bottom.
My plan is to grow them in pots next season and plant in ground fall 2014.
Would they be better in a root maker pot vs the standard ones?
Thanks,
Snorkel
Milwaukee WI
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I had 3 Dunstan's heeled in my garden all last winter in Brookfield, WI and they were fine. I did have them in 7 gallon roottrapper bags. I planted them this spring in central wisconsin, they are doing well even in the drought conditions. Welcome to the forum!
(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by CrazyED
I had 3 Dunstan's heeled in my garden all last winter in Brookfield, WI and they were fine. I did have them in 7 gallon roottrapper bags. I planted them this spring in central wisconsin, they are doing well even in the drought conditions. Welcome to the forum!
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Thanks, good to know they are doing well after a winter outside.
They should be fine then in the garage over the winter I would imagine.
I have several Fig trees that survive in pots each year in the garage,so I guess these should be ok. I just got the dunstans from realtree nursery in florida a day ago, so I just put them in the pots.
I tried starting chinese chestnuts about 4 years ago, and every single one died, the ones I had in pots and the one in the ground. I recently read about the Dunstan variety and thought I might as well try again. My father in law had one(chinese) in the ground(in south milwaukee) and it was doing well and even had a flower, then we got those nasty rain storms in 2008 and it started getting brown and died, rain must have brought some fungus or root rot got it.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by snorkel
Thanks, good to know they are doing well after a winter outside.
They should be fine then in the garage over the winter I would imagine.
I have several Fig trees that survive in pots each year in the garage,so I guess these should be ok. I just got the dunstans from realtree nursery in florida a day ago, so I just put them in the pots.
I tried starting chinese chestnuts about 4 years ago, and every single one died, the ones I had in pots and the one in the ground. I recently read about the Dunstan variety and thought I might as well try again. My father in law had one(chinese) in the ground(in south milwaukee) and it was doing well and even had a flower, then we got those nasty rain storms in 2008 and it started getting brown and died, rain must have brought some fungus or root rot got it.
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I'd be careful about their roots drying out in the garage over the winter.
Also, how long are you keeping them at your home? If you're planting next spring then I doubt the rootmakers would help you over the winter. Any chance you could decide on a spot and get them planted and protected this fall?

Fall planting is great!Fall planted trees hardly ever have too be watered and have a better survival rate.Due to the fact that they are usually well on there way to establishment when the hot weather hits.I plant anytime I can get a shovel in the ground all winter.Fortunatly for me the ground hardly ever freezes.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
I'd be careful about their roots drying out in the garage over the winter.
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I don't think that would be a issue as I overwinter 5 potted fig trees in the same garage and I keep the soil moist while in the garage. The figs always survive the winter.
I up potted the two seedlings but they are not looking good, the are starting to wilt and the leaves at the top are drying out. I don't think they are going to make it and it's only been a few days.
The pots have a mix of a sandy topsoil and some tree/shrub potting mix. It drains well, so I don't think that is a issue. it's been getting down to the 40's here in Milwaukee county so I have been taking them in the garage on those nights. I have not had good luck trying to get chestnuts to grow here in the past, even ones in the ground would die after a few months :-(
I may try some diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide to get more oxygen to the roots.

Snorkel,
Were they in direct sun? Not sure why they would be wilting if they're in the same soil they were previously planted in? I can see them getting shocked and burned from too much sun. I'd keep them in partial shade the rest of fall until they go dormant.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
Snorkel,
Were they in direct sun? Not sure why they would be wilting if they're in the same soil they were previously planted in? I can see them getting shocked and burned from too much sun. I'd keep them in partial shade the rest of fall until they go dormant.
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I put them in new soil in bigger pots, put I didn't shake out the roots or anything like that. I had them against the back of the house and this time of year it's gets a lot of shade as well as direct sun.
I put them in the house today in front of a picture window in the kitchen.
It kind of looks like transplant shock, so maybe a few days in the warm house will turn them around.

The more I read about chestnuts on this forum the more I believe that less sun is better the first year or two. I'd agree they are having transplant shock.

More sun is not necessarily a bad thing . Mine started in March after being in the frig since November. SE Louisiana sun but needs watering lately they are in 3 gallon root bags with miraclegrow potting mix, the tallest is already over 6 ft.

R Keaghey,
You definitely have a green thumb. To go from nut to 6' in 6 months. They look healthy. Any tips you can give us? Fertilizer? How often did you water?
Etc.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
R Keaghey,
You definitely have a green thumb. To go from nut to 6' in 6 months. They look healthy. Any tips you can give us? Fertilizer? How often did you water?
Etc.
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Yes, what he said. I thought mine were doing good but they aren't even half that size in the same timeframe.

MiracleGrow potting mix transplanted to the root bags at 2 months ( about 1 ft high ) and earlier in the summer we had rain every day . it has been dry lately so watering every other day . Hit them twice with MircleGrow liquid . Will put in the ground as soon as they look like them are ready to drop leaves so that the roots can establish . Most will be going to central Mississippi, think I will plant acouple here at the house . I offered my cousin a few to plant up in Livingston Parish . There are 57 plants in the photos by the way .

Here is a photo of a leaf , They are large . I purchased the nuts on ebay they were listed as "Dunston Chestnuts" these leaves are larger than the trees I purchased from realtree nurseries.
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/a...psd7c4dda4.jpg

Were they bunched together like that all summer or spread out a little?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by R Keaghey
MiracleGrow potting mix transplanted to the root bags at 2 months ( about 1 ft high ) and earlier in the summer we had rain every day . it has been dry lately so watering every other day . Hit them twice with MircleGrow liquid . Will put in the ground as soon as they look like them are ready to drop leaves so that the roots can establish . Most will be going to central Mississippi, think I will plant acouple here at the house . I offered my cousin a few to plant up in Livingston Parish . There are 57 plants in the photos by the way .
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So you just used the regular miracle grow potting mix for indoor plants?
The ones I just got in the mail last week are already dead I think, I am wondering if it was the soil mix I put them in and not sun or transplant shock.
I am going to try one more thing before I through in the towel and that is to put them in different soil as I have nothing left to lose with them now.
The leaves are just crumbling to dust, like they are not taking up water from the roots at all and the only time I have seen that is from root rot, but never saw it take hold so fast.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by R Keaghey
Here is a photo of a leaf , They are large . I purchased the nuts on ebay they were listed as "Dunston Chestnuts" these leaves are larger than the trees I purchased from realtree nurseries.
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/a...psd7c4dda4.jpg
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When planted from seeds they show much more genetic diversity, so the ones you planted may be showing more chinese traits such as the broader leaves.
At least thats what I have read :-)

Yes regular miraclegrow . I noticed a difference some grew straight with no branching and some started branching out early, so there may be traits of both American and Chinese. Since these will be for wildlife and not for timber I don't mind either way . But I do have 4 from Realtree Nursery that are Dunstan's

Yes NH Mountains they have been bunched together. I had them in 2 planters when I started them, and almost lost 2 plants when transferring to root bags. I tried to be careful separating the roots and they did come back to life, so I did well on that . I have done this with persimmon trees and oaks before and haven't had a problem as long as the tap root doesn't get broken .
I am taking photos of these as they grow here and some of the transplanting process and will as they grow .

I'm thinking the bunching together may push upward growth and may help in shading a little bit when in full sun?
Was it difficult to make sure each bag got enough water when watering ?

I used 2"x4" to frame-up a water trough(?) measuring 4'x8' lined with plastic and I cut slots about 1" so as not to keep too much water in . There are 50 inside and 7 outside the trough. and the outside ones are doing just as good as the ones inside
I am still in the learning process and love this forum for all the info I have gained from everyone . Now if I can get my apple, pear, & crabapple to look this good

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by grapevine
I would wait until I definitely see a tip. You could take them out of the fridge for a few days to see if that gets them started. If not, they have not stratified long enough. Remember, you need to keep them in a ziplock with some damp peat moss/paper towel/or something damp.
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Is sand ok to use instead of peat moss?

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Originally Posted by BBiondo
Is sand ok to use instead of peat moss?
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Not sure. As I understood it (could be Wrong) the SPAGHNUM moss has a natural mold inhibitor??

There are two methods for cold stratifying and germinating seed. The first method is the one grapevine talked about and is the most common I've seen on the forum. You put the seeds in a slightly open ziplock bag with added moisture. You can use a damp paper towel or regular sphagnum peat moss to hold the moisture. You put them in the vegetable crisper to hold a low temperature above freezing.
With this method, the seeds won't germinate for at least 60 days but they are in contact with moisture the entire time. After 60 days, germination can begin. If you leave them at cold temperatures, they will germinate slowly. You have several options at this point. You can check them regularly and take them out and plant them as they germinate or you can take all of them out and plant them before they germinate or you can take them out, expose them to warmth and continued moisture, get them to germinate faster and plant them.
Using this method, the seeds are in contact with moisture for a long time and mold can become an issue. Longleaf sphagnum (different than the sphagnum peat moss you buy at lowes) is much more expensive on a per pound basis. It does have anti-fungal properties. That is the best thing to uses in the ziplock bag with the nuts with this method.
THe second method is the one IndianSam describes. You cold stratify the nuts in sealed ziplock bags with no added moisture. You keep them in the fridge for a minimum of 60 days but they should not germinate even if kept there for a year because they are not exposed to moisture. Anytime after 60 days, you can remove the nuts and expose them to warmth and moisture. They will germinate, but because the amount of time they are exposed to moisture is much less, mold is much less an issue.
I used the first method last year but will be using the IndianSam method this year. I like this method for several reasons.
1) It allows you to delay germination so you can control the development stage of the tree at spring planting time.
2) Less chance of mold issues, but you can still use Longleaf sphagnum to cover the seed during germination with this method.
3) The seeds germinate faster when exposed to warmth. They use gravity to decided which direction to send the root. If you don't check the seeds in the fridge often enough using method one, you can get long root radicles pointing in odd directions. This can mean either a kink in the root or stem which can be an issue down the road. Removing the seeds from the fridge without germination allows you to start them in flats at the same orientation you will be planting them. I will be using a combination of sand and soilless mix in my flats.
Either way will work but I'll be using method 2 based on my lessons learned from last year. If you use method one (or two for that matter) you can also put your seeds in a 10% bleach solution and then rinse them good prior to cold stratification. This can help set back mold issues at the start.
Thanks,
Jack

Jack, that is exactly what I was looking for!!

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Originally Posted by NH Mountains
Were they bunched together like that all summer or spread out a little?
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That's what I was wondering. Bunching them up is a great option to avoid sun scald.
It is just like seedlings growing under weeds...100 degree temps never scorch them.

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Originally Posted by letemgrow
That's what I was wondering. Bunching them up is a great option to avoid sun scald.
It is just like seedlings growing under weeds...100 degree temps never scorch them.
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I've done this the last couple yrs with Dunstans to shade them as seedlings to help shade them:
Ones planted this spring (2013) 10' from woods edge with corn planted 10' on the other side. Pic was taken in July:

Pic this fall from spring planted Dunstans in 2012. These are 5' tubes:

 

[yoderjac]

See previous post/page:
Probably could be protected in the field the first couple years like I did with corn, with any annual sorghum, EW, milo, etc. Keep a 3' ring of competition, then your annual grain.
This would allow you to field plant more of them and not have to baby them as much, or plant in/near the woods and do TSI later??? Seems to be working. Thoughts?

As mentioned earlier about storing the chestnuts in the fridge indsam style if they were to begin poking out of the nuts late winter,would they air prune themselves if there was no peat in the ziplocs though??I would like to try this method but when i check my temp in the bottom of the fridge it isnt getting as low as 33-34 degrees and feear they will germinate before im ready

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Originally Posted by NYHUNTER
As mentioned earlier about storing the chestnuts in the fridge indsam style if they were to begin poking out of the nuts late winter,would they air prune themselves if there was no peat in the ziplocs though??I would like to try this method but when i check my temp in the bottom of the fridge it isnt getting as low as 33-34 degrees and feear they will germinate before im ready
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I believe moisture is the key to the Indsam method. Without added moisture, I doubt germination would occur. I'll let you know since that is my plan for this winter.

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I believe moisture is the key to the Indsam method. Without added moisture, I doubt germination would occur. I'll let you know since that is my plan for this winter.
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Yoder i asked this question on a thread i started before i found this one. So, your saying you think it is best to put them in a closed ziploc, dry, and leave them until about 60 days, remove them and warm them up and then plant?

Ok i guess ill give it a shot with my chinese chestnuts i picked up yesterday, 80 lbs!!! I plan on direct seeding those (as many as i can handle)and planting my dunstans indoors,see what happens i guess.i've already eaten alot of the chinese ones and they were delicious!

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Originally Posted by blumsden
Yoder i asked this question on a thread i started before i found this one. So, your saying you think it is best to put them in a closed ziploc, dry, and leave them until about 60 days, remove them and warm them up and then plant?
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I'm not saying anything is "best". I think "best" is subjective and depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
Based on my experience from last year, here is my opinion:
1) I found that starting chestnuts early and transplanting them from rootmaker cells to larger rootmaker containers added cost and work. It also introduced the possibility for other issues. I found no long-term benefit from planting from larger containers. By fall, I could see no difference in trees started early and transplanted and those started later and planted directly from the rootmaker cells.
2) I found little benefit from keeping the trees in rootmaker containers through the summer. We had timely rain this summer, so things could be different if we had a drought. There may be benefit to others doing this depending on climate and other factors. However, for me, the added cost, work, and risk, was not worth it. Again, I saw little difference in trees kept in containers and planted in the fall. Keep in mind, I only have one year of experience with these and there may be future benefits that I can't measure yet. However so far, I see no benefit for me.
3) For 2013, I plan to plant all of my trees directly from the rootmaker cells but I do want to get the benefit of root pruning in the cells. In order to accomplish this, I need to control the germination dates to correspond to my planting dates.
So, I believe the Indian Sam method is "best" for me because it allows me to control the germination dates. My plan is to cold stratify the seeds dry for 60 days and keep them from germinating until I'm ready. I am starting with my planting date and working backwards. I plan to plant in mid-April when I have less than 10% chance of frost in my area. Dr. Whitcomb suggest 12-16 weeks in the cells before they need to be removed. My experience from last year says that anytime after the 60 days of stratification, the seeds can be exposed to warmth and moisture and will germinate in 1-3 weeks on average.
Therefore, I plan to store the seeds without added moisture in sealed Ziploc bags until I'm ready for them to germinate. I will then start them in flats. As soon as they germinate, I will move them to rootmaker cells.
There is nothing wrong with storing them like others do with moisture if don't want control over germination date.
Thanks,
Jack

I checked my chestnuts tonight. There was significant condensation in the bags. I removed them all, dried them off, and returned them to the crisper. I'll check them in a few more days. I want to keep the moisture level low but not let them dry out completely.

I received 1 lb. of the Dunstan Chestnuts from Chestnut Ridge today and started a high school science fair level experiment.
1 lb. = 55 nuts, no floaters. I didn't continue the float test for 12 hours as some have recommended as I was afraid it would increase the likelihood of rejecting potentially viable seeds.
All of them were soaked for 10 minutes in 10% bleach solution (1 part household bleach, 9 parts tap water), then divided into 5 groups of 11 nuts each.
Group 1; bleach solution patted off with a paper towel and the seeds placed in crisper with no added moisture.
All the remaining seeds were thoroughly rinsed with tap water. 11 nuts with potting mix (50/50 perlite and sphagnum peat moss) were placed in zip locs with:
Group 2; 1 cup 10% bleach
Group 3; 1 cup tap water
Group 4; 1 cup 1% hydrogen peroxide (1 part 3% household H202, 2 parts tap water).
Group 5; Dried on a paper towel overnight to be placed in a dry zip loc with no potting mix and no added moisture.
The above amount of liquid resulted in the potting mix being damp to the touch but not wet.
I'll be comparing the above for germination during stratification, overall germination rates, germination after removal from stratification, and growth rate of the seedlings.
I won't post any pictures yet as they all look about the same and would take up 3 pages of the thread, but here are the links in case anybody's bored.
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...psc54d9e2b.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps67358142.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps72c4efd4.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps82b0cbaa.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps647395c0.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...psd55b25ae.jpg
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps720967a2.jpg

 

[yoderjac]

Thinking about trying this.

I saw a study done on whether you can use bleach or hydron peroxide to prevent mildow or mold growth. Both worked better than no treatment.

I would also think this is less of an issue with the IndianSam storage method. Having said that, I always use a light bleach solution to wash the nuts when I receive them. Discouraging mold before it takes hold is a lot easier than dealing with it once it is established.

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I would also think this is less of an issue with the IndianSam storage method. Having said that, I always use a light bleach solution to wash the nuts when I receive them. Discouraging mold before it takes hold is a lot easier than dealing with it once it is established.
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It's probably a good idea to sanitize before placing in cold storage. I read some articles that suggested that using dilute hydrogen peroxide actually increased germination rates.
I used a dilute hydrogen peroxide solution on my persimmon seeds...100% failure. They were covered with mold after 2 weeks in the fridge. I rinsed again with dilute bleach before I tried to germinate them and the mold came right back.
I think that the key is the amount of moisture. I used a 'standard' potting soil and kept it way too moist.
As per my prior post, I'm trying several different methods with chestnuts. The common denominator is less moisture. In fact, one bag of 10 seeds is completely dry. The others have a lightly moistened paper towel that I haven't re-moistened since bagging them. They still have small beads of moisture on the bag, so I don't think they are drying out.
I plan to germinate these in a couple of weeks, so I'll let you know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
It's probably a good idea to sanitize before placing in cold storage. I read some articles that suggested that using dilute hydrogen peroxide actually increased germination rates.
I used a dilute hydrogen peroxide solution on my persimmon seeds...100% failure. They were covered with mold after 2 weeks in the fridge. I rinsed again with dilute bleach before I tried to germinate them and the mold came right back.
I think that the key is the amount of moisture. I used a 'standard' potting soil and kept it way too moist.
As per my prior post, I'm trying several different methods with chestnuts. The common denominator is less moisture. In fact, one bag of 10 seeds is completely dry. The others have a lightly moistened paper towel that I haven't re-moistened since bagging them. They still have small beads of moisture on the bag, so I don't think they are drying out.
I plan to germinate these in a couple of weeks, so I'll let you know how it goes.
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I don't know much about longer term storage of persimmon seed. Years ago when I planted a few from seed that I collected, I only kept them in the fridge for a couple weeks. I did scarify them and had 100% germination with no mold.
This year I had great germination with my persimmons (over 600) but I bought the seed from England. Cliff had already stratified the seed and exposed it to warmth and dampness when I got them. There was no sign of mold. He shipped them in a soilless potting mix damp.
My mold issues were with Chestnuts last year. Of the 200 seeds I started with about 150 made it to the field.
This year, I added no additional moisture. I do have some condensation in the bags from the natural moisture. As you say, you can't let them completely dry out. Mine are fully cold stratified at this point. They have been in the fridge since late September.
My original plan was to start everything at once in mid-December, but as it turns out, we are planning a controlled burn in the hardwood clear-cuts we just made. The burn will be a hot burn in early May to kill as many stump stems as possible. So, I'll try to schedule the bulk of the trees for an early to mid-May planting. I still have some areas that won't be burned where I can plant some trees. I need to figure out how many. I start those in mid-December so they are ready to plant in Mid-April when our last threat of frost is past.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I don't know much about longer term storage of persimmon seed. Years ago when I planted a few from seed that I collected, I only kept them in the fridge for a couple weeks. I did scarify them and had 100% germination with no mold.
This year I had great germination with my persimmons (over 600) but I bought the seed from England. Cliff had already stratified the seed and exposed it to warmth and dampness when I got them. There was no sign of mold. He shipped them in a soilless potting mix damp.
My mold issues were with Chestnuts last year. Of the 200 seeds I started with about 150 made it to the field.
This year, I added no additional moisture. I do have some condensation in the bags from the natural moisture. As you say, you can't let them completely dry out. Mine are fully cold stratified at this point. They have been in the fridge since late September.
My original plan was to start everything at once in mid-December, but as it turns out, we are planning a controlled burn in the hardwood clear-cuts we just made. The burn will be a hot burn in early May to kill as many stump stems as possible. So, I'll try to schedule the bulk of the trees for an early to mid-May planting. I still have some areas that won't be burned where I can plant some trees. I need to figure out how many. I start those in mid-December so they are ready to plant in Mid-April when our last threat of frost is past.
==================================
So you only cold stratified your persimmon seeds for a couple of weeks? I had mine in the fridge for 3 months because that's what the person (ebay) who sold them to me said to do. I'm happy to hear that you had success with a shorter period because Dogdoc is sending me some seeds that should arrive this week. After a 100% failure rate, I'm thinking 3 months was too long.
I'm keeping a close eye on the chestnuts. I have 50+ in the fridge right now. They've been in there for 6 weeks and I'm wondering if I shouldn't pull some out and germinate them now.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
So you only cold stratified your persimmon seeds for a couple of weeks? I had mine in the fridge for 3 months because that's what the person (ebay) who sold them to me said to do. I'm happy to hear that you had success with a shorter period because Dogdoc is sending me some seeds that should arrive this week. After a 100% failure rate, I'm thinking 3 months was too long.
I'm keeping a close eye on the chestnuts. I have 50+ in the fridge right now. They've been in there for 6 weeks and I'm wondering if I shouldn't pull some out and germinate them now.
==================================
Yes, but that was years ago and I only had about 10 seeds. I'm not sure that was enough for a good statistical sample but all of the ones I planted germinated. I did scarify those seeds by the way, but I did not scarify the ones I got from Cliff. In both cases I got good germination rates.
The natural course for persimmons is to be eaten by and animal, go through the digestive tract, and be distributed in the dropping at another location. The acids in the digestive tract tend to eat away at the seed hull. I did have some of the seed I got from cliff germinate and start to grow, but the leaves could not escape the seed hull and withered and died. I did remove some seed hulls gently by hand after experiencing that. It may have been prudent to scarify the seed but with so many seeds available I didn't bother.
You may want to try to scarify them yourself. If you don't like swallowing them and picking through your droppings to find them again, you can either use an acidic solution like lemon juice or do it mechanically. You can take a 5 gallon bucket and glue sandpaper to the inside then shake the seed around in the bucket. I do that with bicolor lespedeza seed that likes to be scarified.
Good Luck,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Yes, but that was years ago and I only had about 10 seeds. I'm not sure that was enough for a good statistical sample but all of the ones I planted germinated. I did scarify those seeds by the way, but I did not scarify the ones I got from Cliff. In both cases I got good germination rates.
The natural course for persimmons is to be eaten by and animal, go through the digestive tract, and be distributed in the dropping at another location. The acids in the digestive tract tend to eat away at the seed hull. I did have some of the seed I got from cliff germinate and start to grow, but the leaves could not escape the seed hull and withered and died. I did remove some seed hulls gently by hand after experiencing that. It may have been prudent to scarify the seed but with so many seeds available I didn't bother.
You may want to try to scarify them yourself. If you don't like swallowing them and picking through your droppings to find them again, you can either use an acidic solution like lemon juice or do it mechanically. You can take a 5 gallon bucket and glue sandpaper to the inside then shake the seed around in the bucket. I do that with bicolor lespedeza seed that likes to be scarified.
Good Luck,
Jack
==================================
Fortunately, the seeds I'm getting are from coyote scat. Yes, I do owe him one!
The seeds that I had that failed, I soaked in hot water overnight. The water may have been too hot. It wasn't boiling but it hadn't cooled much. I don't know if it was that or the mold that killed them. A couple of them popped out tiny roots that were immediately covered in mold. They never got longer than a couple mm.

I froze some last year.(read on the internet )Thought I messed up planted in 3x12' bed around 500 came up.Mostly I just clean dry and refridgerate for persimmons.I have had not had any problems.I planted mine in January the freezing and thawing is good for the seeds.However some came to the top and needed to be coverd with a little more dirt.Just my experience.Behind on my work those in the planting bed needed dug rootpruned and replanted 2 months ago.Waiting for a thaw now!

I just re-read the pamphlet on growing chestnuts from seed. Has anybody used the miracid recommended?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
I just re-read the pamphlet on growing chestnuts from seed. Has anybody used the miracid recommended?
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I considered it last year but did not. If you go back to one of my old Chestnut threads (<http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55217 , you will see I had some issue with what we suspect was Iron chlorosis.
This was only with the seeds I started early in December and transplanted to larger containers. I was using city water and we suspect that since the Farfard 3B was amended to neutral and so is city water, the issue was the fact that low acidity prevented the trees from using iron rather than iron was absent.
Because the trees were already iron depleted, I wanted to amend the pH more quickly. I used AMS in my water a few times and also added a little ironite for good measure.
One thing I'm considering this year is using miracid which is a much gentler/slower way to change the pH of the mix. I had no issues with this while the plants were in the express trays. I have some persimmon and Jujube that are in 1 gal containers. I plan to bring these inside soon and wake them up. I'm considering miracid for the persimmon. The jujube handles a wider pH range.
If you are using rain water, I doubt you need the miracid. If you are using treated water, it may not be a bad idea. Chestnuts prefer slightly acidic soil.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
If you are using rain water, I doubt you need the miracid. If you are using treated water, it may not be a bad idea. Chestnuts prefer slightly acidic soil.
==================================
Thanks. I'll probably give it a try.
I don't know how acidic our rain water is. I should get some pH paper and test it.

 

[yoderjac]

If you do refrigerate in the trays, keep tabs on them to make sure they don't dry out (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by bigeight
If you do refrigerate in the trays, keep tabs on them to make sure they don't dry out (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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He moved the question to the other thread, but I presume you would need to both keep them watered as needed and watch for top growth. I'm guessing he will see top growth even in the fridge before he is ready to take them outside and be forced to use lights or abandon the project.
My thought was just to put them in the fridge long enough for him to get a lighting setup worked out.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
He moved the question to the other thread, but I presume you would need to both keep them watered as needed and watch for top growth. I'm guessing he will see top growth even in the fridge before he is ready to take them outside and be forced to use lights or abandon the project.
My thought was just to put them in the fridge long enough for him to get a lighting setup worked out.
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Ha ha, I was just thinking to myself: who the heck was I replying to? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Yup, I think once those roots pop, you better be scurrying to get a light system up and running!

Thanks guy! I didnt want to hijack this thread...

Well, my root radicle emergence is slowing down but my top growth emergence is speeding up. I only added one new chestnut to a cell today but a bunch more have had top growth emerge. I now have over 50 that have top growth.

Somebody asked if the moldy nuts had been cut open to see if there was an infestation inside.
I've been diligently washing the mold off of the seeds that get it in the hopes that they would germinate anyway. It's been the same ones consistently and none of them have germinated. The one in the photo has been in the flat for over 6 weeks, so I finally gave it up for dead and cut it open to see how deep the mold infection goes. You may not be able to tell from the picture, but the white stuff is the beginning of the mold that starts on the surface. It covers the entire surface of the nut inside the shell and tracks across the meat as well.
If I wait a couple of days to wash the white stuff off the shell, it grows into the blue-gray fuzzy stuff that's in the second picture.
There was no weevil or other bug in the seed.
Whether this mold grows on non-viable nuts or whether it's responsible for killing them, I don't know, but when they get this stuff I'm going to toss them.
<i>White mold interior of non-viable</i>

<i>Two day old mold growth on chestnut</i>

Why are you guys getting so much mold? Reading all of the problems going on, makes me wonder. I am not having any problem at all with mold. My problem is running out of Rootmakers.

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Originally Posted by spur79
Why are you guys getting so much mold? Reading all of the problems going on, makes me wonder. I am not having any problem at all with mold. My problem is running out of Rootmakers.
==================================
I can only speculate, but it seems to be moisture content in storage. None of the seeds that I stored dry, in an empty zip loc molded. However, they also haven't germinated. Only about 10% of the nuts I stored in moist medium succumbed.

Do you have a dedicated refrigerator or do you put them in your fridge with everything else you use every day? Maybe your getting mold spores from store bought goods/vegetables/fruits.
I have a dedicated fridge for seeds and clean thoroughly after planting and ready to go for next year.

I suspect the nuts died and started rotting for whatever reason, and the mold takes over. Much like maggots on a dead deer, cleaning the maggots off the deer won't help.

I cold stratisfied mine dry, to eliminate mold issues. I took them out a couple of days ago, now what? Yoder, you stored yours dry too, didn't you? Should i put them in rootmaker cells and water them?

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Originally Posted by blumsden
I cold stratisfied mine dry, to eliminate mold issues. I took them out a couple of days ago, now what? Yoder, you stored yours dry too, didn't you? Should i put them in rootmaker cells and water them?
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You'll have to add moisture in some way to jump start them, as well as upping the temperature IF YOU WANT TO START THEM NOW.
I would definitely stick to the spaghnum moss in a ziploc bag to germinate them. (But there are lots of viable options for this) The spaghnum has a natural mold inhibitor that is vital for this process. Keep them flat side down, and when the root pokes out, then move them to the RM trays.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by blumsden
I cold stratisfied mine dry, to eliminate mold issues. I took them out a couple of days ago, now what? Yoder, you stored yours dry too, didn't you? Should i put them in rootmaker cells and water them?
==================================
I think the mold issue is coming from several sources:
1) I'm learning that how the nuts are collected and initially cared for is important. They are high in carbs and very susceptible to mold. Mold can transfer quickly from nut to nut. So, the source from which we get our nuts matters.
2) By storing nuts dry, depending on how dry, we may be slowing stratification. I previously posted the 10% &amp; 65% moisture numbers but I don't even know how you would measure that. So, if stratification is slowed, the nuts will take longer to germinate once we do add moisture.
3) if there is any mold, and I've always had a few moldy nuts, it is a race between mold and germination. If the nuts are slower to germinate base on 2) above, then the mold has an advantage.
So, what do you do?.....
I think it depends on your constraints. If you are planning to fall plant and don't have to push to get your plants in the ground by early spring to get them established before summer heat, I think you do exactly what Big8 does. You simply add some damp sphagnum, keep them in the fridge to slow mold, and watch them daily. Keep in mind you will need some method to keep the orientation fixed. As soon as you see root radicle appearing, remove the nut and plant it in a rootmaker cell. This also holds true if you plant later in the spring and can water your trees when needed during the summer.
If you are in my situation, where you can't water during the summer and need the trees well established during the spring, I think you take your losses now like I did.
I removed my nuts from the fridge and put them in flats with long fiber sphagnum to germinate. I put the flats in bags to keep them moist. Out of 400 nuts I have had about 180 or so produce root radicles. I will probably get a few more before all is said an done, but I am now throwing many more nuts out due to mold each day than are germinating. I doubt I will get 200 which is a 50% rate.
However, I'm in a unique dilemma. I'm doing this in volume so I can't water my trees in the summer. They need to sink or swim on their own once planted. I would rather take my losses now at the nut stage than do all the work planting trees and loose the same 50% because the didn't get established before a summer drought.
So, if you can use the Big8 method, I would. If not, you may still get better results than me depending on how your nuts were cared for before you received them. Next year I plan to use Big8's nut source as well as his method of adding the damp peat a few weeks after cold storage.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Who carries the moss, you speak of?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by blumsden
Who carries the moss, you speak of?
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I get mine from Home Depot, or Lowes. But I'm in MI so it seems they carry it here, and not in some other states for whatever reason (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by bigeight
I get mine from Home Depot, or Lowes. But I'm in MI so it seems they carry it here, and not in some other states for whatever reason (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
I also got it from Home Depot. Its a small bag and was inside the store by the tropical indoor type plants.
On a different note, as of yesterday, I've put all of my nuts back in the fridge under the assumption that they didn't stratify, this time with damp sp. moss.
I like last year better where I received chestnuts that were already sprouting (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
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Originally Posted by blumsden
Who carries the moss, you speak of?
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Also, if you search back through these Dunstan Chestnut threads, you will find a picture of a bag that Big8 posted of the home depot product. I could not find it locally either. Even when I asked at Lowes and home depot. It was simply because the folks working there didn't really know what they had. Once you see the picture, you can find it on-line at home depot and know specifically what product name to ask for at the store.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by spur79
Do you have a dedicated refrigerator or do you put them in your fridge with everything else you use every day? Maybe your getting mold spores from store bought goods/vegetables/fruits.
I have a dedicated fridge for seeds and clean thoroughly after planting and ready to go for next year.
==================================
If you're asking me, I do have a dedicated refrigerator. Up until recently, I used it to brew beer, so it was meticulously sanitized. I suspect that the mold spores are shipped with the seeds. As somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, I believe the mold infects a non-viable nut as part of the decomposition process. Just a guess.
I can accept a 10% failure rate if that's what I end up with. Of course, there may be a lot of other reasons that they don't make it to maturity.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I think the mold issue is coming from several sources:
1) I'm learning that how the nuts are collected and initially cared for is important. They are high in carbs and very susceptible to mold. Mold can transfer quickly from nut to nut. So, the source from which we get our nuts matters.
2) By storing nuts dry, depending on how dry, we may be slowing stratification. I previously posted the 10% &amp; 65% moisture numbers but I don't even know how you would measure that. So, if stratification is slowed, the nuts will take longer to germinate once we do add moisture.
3) if there is any mold, and I've always had a few moldy nuts, it is a race between mold and germination. If the nuts are slower to germinate base on 2) above, then the mold has an advantage.
So, what do you do?.....
I think it depends on your constraints. If you are planning to fall plant and don't have to push to get your plants in the ground by early spring to get them established before summer heat, I think you do exactly what Big8 does. You simply add some damp sphagnum, keep them in the fridge to slow mold, and watch them daily. Keep in mind you will need some method to keep the orientation fixed. As soon as you see root radicle appearing, remove the nut and plant it in a rootmaker cell. This also holds true if you plant later in the spring and can water your trees when needed during the summer.
If you are in my situation, where you can't water during the summer and need the trees well established during the spring, I think you take your losses now like I did.
I removed my nuts from the fridge and put them in flats with long fiber sphagnum to germinate. I put the flats in bags to keep them moist. Out of 400 nuts I have had about 180 or so produce root radicles. I will probably get a few more before all is said an done, but I am now throwing many more nuts out due to mold each day than are germinating. I doubt I will get 200 which is a 50% rate.
However, I'm in a unique dilemma. I'm doing this in volume so I can't water my trees in the summer. They need to sink or swim on their own once planted. I would rather take my losses now at the nut stage than do all the work planting trees and loose the same 50% because the didn't get established before a summer drought.
So, if you can use the Big8 method, I would. If not, you may still get better results than me depending on how your nuts were cared for before you received them. Next year I plan to use Big8's nut source as well as his method of adding the damp peat a few weeks after cold storage.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Jack,
My trial of germination methods agrees with all you say above.
1) I used several different rinsing methods: 1/10 household bleach and water, 1/3 household hydrogen peroxide in water (1%), and plain, unfiltered tap water. There wasn't a big difference in time to germination with any of these. Those rinsed in tap water germinated a few days earlier but I doubt this is significant. The rinse solution doesn't seem to make a big difference in the rate of molding either.
2) I stored 20/55 of the nuts dry. None of these have germinated to date. I've lost none of these to mold. I'm going to put them all back in the frig in long-leaf, moistened peat and stratify them for another few weeks. We'll see if they make it.
3) The germination rate of the seeds stratified moist for 60 days was about 30%. I lost most of the remainder to mold. My experience is that 60 days in the cold isn't long enough.
Again, none of those stratified dry for 60 days have popped a root radicle. This tells me that moisture during the stratification process is necessary.
4) The germination rate for nuts stored moist for 90 days is about 80% so far.
5) Average time to germination has been about 6 days (range 4-14 days). I've lost 2/35 of those stratified for 90 days to mold. The remainder are still in the germination flat and looking pretty good (no mold).
6) About 1/2 of those that have developed top growth have the American characteristics (single bole) and the other half have multiple boles. Some of these are probably intermediate between the two but I don't know how to tell the difference.
Phil

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
Jack,
My trial of germination methods agrees with all you say above.
1) I used several different rinsing methods: 1/10 household bleach and water, 1/3 household hydrogen peroxide in water (1%), and plain, unfiltered tap water. There wasn't a big difference in time to germination with any of these. Those rinsed in tap water germinated a few days earlier but I doubt this is significant. The rinse solution doesn't seem to make a big difference in the rate of molding either.
2) I stored 20/55 of the nuts dry. None of these have germinated to date. I've lost none of these to mold. I'm going to put them all back in the frig in long-leaf, moistened peat and stratify them for another few weeks. We'll see if they make it.
3) The germination rate of the seeds stratified moist for 60 days was about 30%. I lost most of the remainder to mold. My experience is that 60 days in the cold isn't long enough.
Again, none of those stratified dry for 60 days have popped a root radicle. This tells me that moisture during the stratification process is necessary.
4) The germination rate for nuts stored moist for 90 days is about 80% so far.
5) Average time to germination has been about 6 days (range 4-14 days). I've lost 2/35 of those stratified for 90 days to mold. The remainder are still in the germination flat and looking pretty good (no mold).
6) About 1/2 of those that have developed top growth have the American characteristics (single bole) and the other half have multiple boles. Some of these are probably intermediate between the two but I don't know how to tell the difference.
Phil
==================================
Phil,
Thanks for keeping those records. It think they help us figure out what is going on.
Also the pictures of the dissected nuts you posted make a lot of sense. When I see very early signs of mold on the exterior of the nuts, using the bleach solution seemed to slow it enough for some of the nuts to germinate. With nuts were mold progressed a bit more, it had no positive net effect. I think that is because once the mold gets into the nut, that nut is toast.
I'm starting to believe that some of the nuts I received had already been penetrated with the mold. While they still looked fine when I received them, the initial bleach bath was too late. This could happen with some small crack in the shell or any entry point small enough we can't even see it.
During cold storage, that mold probably grows inside the nut very slowly. Then when we take the nuts out and expose them to warmth and moisture, the mold takes off. It gets out side that nut and moves from nut to nut. While the antifungal properties of the sphagnum are probably enough to deter mold from starting, once it gets a stronghold inside the protection of a nut shell, it may be beyond the capacity of sphagnum to stop the spread.
I think some of my lessons learn for next year will be:
1) Select a different source for the nuts. Early handling technique matters.
2) Bleach them on arrival to start with as clean of a slate as possible.
3) Use the Big8 method of starting dry and moving wet during stratification.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Phil,
I think some of my lessons learn for next year will be:
1) Select a different source for the nuts. Early handling technique matters.
2) Bleach them on arrival to start with as clean of a slate as possible.
3) Use the Big8 method of starting dry and moving wet during stratification.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Jack,
One other thing I noted was that some of the nuts had a black coating on them when I took them out of the frig. These developed mold within a day. I suspect that this was mold that had been suppressed by the cold, as you say. I plan to discard these as soon as I see the black coating.
It's interesting that all of these passed the float test on arrival AND after coming out of stratification. In fact I repeated the float test on those that had been in dry storage and two of them failed. That leads me to question whether the float test is as reliable for chestnuts as it is for acorns.
I may adjust my thinking after all is said and done, but next year I'll:
1) rinse in dilute bleach on arrival and allow to air dry overnight
2) Cold stratify all the nuts in moist long-leaf sphagnum for 90 days
3) Check them frequently and immediately toss any that develop any external sign of mold.
4) I'll plan on a 50% success rate and just start enough of them to end up with the right number of seedlings.
I don't know about the source for nuts. It does make sense that nuts that were allowed to sit on the ground in moist conditions for longer periods might easily have more infection/infestation problems.
Sure has been an interesting learning experience.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
Jack,
One other thing I noted was that some of the nuts had a black coating on them when I took them out of the frig. These developed mold within a day. I suspect that this was mold that had been suppressed by the cold, as you say. I plan to discard these as soon as I see the black coating.
It's interesting that all of these passed the float test on arrival AND after coming out of stratification. In fact I repeated the float test on those that had been in dry storage and two of them failed. That leads me to question whether the float test is as reliable for chestnuts as it is for acorns.
I may adjust my thinking after all is said and done, but next year I'll:
1) rinse in dilute bleach on arrival and allow to air dry overnight
2) Cold stratify all the nuts in moist long-leaf sphagnum for 90 days
3) Check them frequently and immediately toss any that develop any external sign of mold.
4) I'll plan on a 50% success rate and just start enough of them to end up with the right number of seedlings.
I don't know about the source for nuts. It does make sense that nuts that were allowed to sit on the ground in moist conditions for longer periods might easily have more infection/infestation problems.
Sure has been an interesting learning experience.
==================================
I completely concur on the black nuts. My guess on the float test is that the nuts still had a viable embryo in them even though they were infected. I too think I'll be more proactive at throwing out individual nuts as soon as I see any sign of mold.
I bought my nuts from a guy on ebay. I'm not sure what process he follows other than just picking them up when they fall. I don't know if he takes any precautions to deter mold before sending them.
Next year I plan to buy them from the commercial source Big8 used. Since they are selling nuts for consumption as well, I presume they take precautions to minimize risk of mold since it would cut into their profits.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I only had 10 chestnuts in the fridge. They've been in since November, dry. I appreciate the info about the moss, and will pick some up and dampen it and store them a while longer. 2 of the chestnuts had worm holes in them, when i took them out of the ziplock, and the worms were in the bag. Crazy.

I did something a little different. Instead of a bleach solution I used a product called Star San. <http://www.midwestsupplies.com/star-san.html Most homebrewers will know what I'm talking about. I already had it so I thought what the heck. After sanitizing, I dried and stored the nuts in a ziploc bag in my garage refrigerator. They've been in there since November. I took 15 of them out yesterday and placed them flat side down in a tupperware container on top of dampened sphagnum, put the lid on and placed them back in the refrigerator. Hopefully they will begin sprouting in a few weeks.

We have lift off!!!
Phew! You guys were getting me nervous about Humidity, temps etc. I didn't document ANYTHING last year, so I had no way to truly duplicate what I did. Just kind of a guess (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I am JUST getting ready to add moisture to some bags this week. So LAST week I pulled out 3 dry stored nuts and added damp spaghnum to the bag and left out in room temp to see if I could get germination. 3/3 and no mold (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
The ones I'm going to grow in RM trays I'm still going to add damp spaghnum to the nuts and put back in the fridge. It may take a little longer to germinate, but I know I won't waste any nuts.
Phew! Looks like I'm good to go! Still hoping on a miracle getting the loggers in this year, or I Might have some germinated nuts to share! Man! They didn't get in there last year, and this year they said FOR SURE... geeze these trees could have been producing by now (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) irritating (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I'm glad to see you have the formula right! Hope you get those logger in. It took us about 3 years from when we hired a forester until we had logging trucks on the property. From there it took 1 summer for tree removal and we are still waiting for remediation. I think by next summer they will be completely out of there.
As for me things are still progressing. I've been getting 3 or 4 per day with root radicles starting. This seems to be slowing and I'm throwing more a way each day due to mold than I'm getting planted. However, top growth is accelerating. As of today I'm up to 72 with top growth emerging.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
We have lift off!!!
I am JUST getting ready to add moisture to some bags this week. So LAST week I pulled out 3 dry stored nuts and added damp spaghnum to the bag and left out in room temp to see if I could get germination. 3/3 and no mold (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Phew! Looks like I'm good to go! Still hoping on a miracle getting the loggers in this year, or I Might have some germinated nuts to share! Man! They didn't get in there last year, and this year they said FOR SURE... geeze these trees could have been producing by now (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) irritating (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
BigEight,
That's interesting that 3/3 of the nuts that you stored dry germinated in a week. For me it was 0/22 after 2 weeks. 12 of those were in the frig for exactly 90 days, the rest for only 60. I wonder what the difference is. Any thoughts? I put them back in the frig in the peat yesterday and will try again in a couple of months.
It sounds like you ARE having the same success with loggers as I. I hired a guy in August and he's yet to get over there. I'd like to plant some fruit trees in place of the soft maple that's there, but they would just be shaded out right now.
Phil

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
BigEight,
That's interesting that 3/3 of the nuts that you stored dry germinated in a week. For me it was 0/22 after 2 weeks. 12 of those were in the frig for exactly 90 days, the rest for only 60. I wonder what the difference is. Any thoughts? I put them back in the frig in the peat yesterday and will try again in a couple of months.
It sounds like you ARE having the same success with loggers as I. I hired a guy in August and he's yet to get over there. I'd like to plant some fruit trees in place of the soft maple that's there, but they would just be shaded out right now.
Phil
==================================
Not sure what the difference would be? Little more moisture in the &quot;dry&quot; bag? It might have been closer to 10 days when I pulled them out and they are JUST poking out of the shell. Again, I need to start paying attention ! Also these 3 were on the TOP of the ziploc. Maybe closer to the condensation? ??
Yeah, I'm getting Really irritated with this logging situation. Nothing we can do about it, it was the only logger that was willing to harvest the trees. I had 10 apple/pear trees ordered for this spring, had about 300 Dunstans ready for last spring,
100 Allegheny Chinquapin Chestnut for last spring, and 100 Persimmon (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) I had to do some serious potting, trading, selling, etc. (We have a small licensed nursery)
I've got 100's of tubes in the garage as well!
This year for SURE they were gonna be in there so I went even bigger with my nut order (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) whoops! I have issues(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Possibilities that I can think of:
1) The source of the nuts
- Mold : Perhaps the presence verses absence of mold could have stressed the nuts slowing stratification.
- The nuts themselves: Could nuts from some sources have thicker hulls based on where they are grown or the conditions they were grown in?
Did you guys both get your nuts from the same source?
2) The only other factor I can think of is the moisture level in dry storage that you guys already mentioned.
Thanks,
Jack

This is how much condensation is in my &quot;dry&quot; stored ziploc bags. ALL the condensation was at the top of the bag until I moved It out of the fridge into more light. Then some of the moisture dripped down the sides (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
There has to be more than 10% in there ????

Yes. I had a couple bags that looked to have similar condensation in them and a couple with less. Those with more moisture did seem to germinate faster but not as fast as yours.

Big8,
There doesn't seem to be any airflow into/out of that bag given how little the bag was opened and the resultant condensation.
I would think your % is much higher than 10% given the condensation level. I'm actually surprised that none germinated in the bag in the refrigerator.
When you said &quot;dry&quot;, I thought you meant dry, as in how they were shipped.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Possibilities that I can think of:
1) The source of the nuts
- Mold : Perhaps the presence verses absence of mold could have stressed the nuts slowing stratification.
- The nuts themselves: Could nuts from some sources have thicker hulls based on where they are grown or the conditions they were grown in?
Did you guys both get your nuts from the same source?
2) The only other factor I can think of is the moisture level in dry storage that you guys already mentioned.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I got mine from Chestnut Ridge of Pike County.
The only thing that makes me doubt that the source of the nuts is the only problem is that I lost all of my persimmon seeds to mold. In that case at least, I'm pretty sure it was a moisture problem. I used regular miracle grow potting soil and kept it very moist. It was a worthwhile experience as I learned to avoid both.
The chestnuts that I kept in dry storage were very dry. There was no condensation on the bag any time I checked. This also points to moisture as the main issue with the mold because none of the 22 that I stored that way have developed any. That dryness may also be why they didn't germinate after coming out of the cold storage. Two of them failed a second float test, but I'm not sure what that means as yet.
Another question that's been running through my mind is how much blight resistance these trees will have. If I'm reading their characteristics right, I'm getting about 1/3 American and the rest either Chinese or intermediate types. Does that mean that they are a first AmericanXChinese cross? If so, then only a certain percentage will have blight resistance. I was mistaken in my belief that these chestnuts were from the originators of the Dunstan Chestnut. That operation is actually Chestnut Hill Tree Farm right here in Gainesville, FL. That location kind of surprised me as that's towards the southern edge of the chestnut's hardiness zone.
Anyway, Chestnut Ridge where I got my chestnuts doesn't list the genetics of their trees. I presume that since they're in the business of selling the nuts that their trees are highly blight resistant. It's my understanding that pure American Chestnuts die from blight soon after maturity, so it would be hard to make money selling their fruit.
Just food for thought.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by robsulm
Big8,
There doesn't seem to be any airflow into/out of that bag given how little the bag was opened and the resultant condensation.
I would think your % is much higher than 10% given the condensation level. I'm actually surprised that none germinated in the bag in the refrigerator.
When you said &quot;dry&quot;, I thought you meant dry, as in how they were shipped.
==================================
They arrived in a paper bag, I let them sit for a day in room temp all spread out to get additional moisture off them, then put them in the bags.
The condensation when in the fridge is ONLY on the very top of the bag. When I pulled them out of the fridge I think they sweated a little when hitting the warm temp while I was farting around with my camera. The top still does have a decent amount of condensation, and the gap I leave quit open on the corner.
I've got a boatload of nuts in dry storage and none show any signs of coming to life without adding moisture (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Well since phopkinsiii and Big8 got their nuts from the same source, that really points to moisture content differences.
I think when they talk about 10% and 65% moisture, they are talking about the nut content. When IndianSam talks about storing them without added moisture, he means you start with the moisture content in the nuts and don't add damp sphagnum.
When you put root temperature nuts that are completely dry to the touch into a bag like that and refrigerate them, some moisture will leave the nut and condense in the bag. That is what you are seeing in Big8s bag.
One difference for me (not sure if it matters) is that I only put 50 nuts in a ziplock bag. I then laid the bags flat and stacked them in the fridge. The reason I did it this way is that I wanted to minimize nut-nut contact an reduce the chances of a mold outbreak completely ruining my project.
It sure didn't seem to work as Big8 got better results than I did with respect to mold.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
I got mine from Chestnut Ridge of Pike County.
The only thing that makes me doubt that the source of the nuts is the only problem is that I lost all of my persimmon seeds to mold. In that case at least, I'm pretty sure it was a moisture problem. I used regular miracle grow potting soil and kept it very moist. It was a worthwhile experience as I learned to avoid both.
The chestnuts that I kept in dry storage were very dry. There was no condensation on the bag any time I checked. This also points to moisture as the main issue with the mold because none of the 22 that I stored that way have developed any. That dryness may also be why they didn't germinate after coming out of the cold storage. Two of them failed a second float test, but I'm not sure what that means as yet.
Another question that's been running through my mind is how much blight resistance these trees will have. If I'm reading their characteristics right, I'm getting about 1/3 American and the rest either Chinese or intermediate types. Does that mean that they are a first AmericanXChinese cross? If so, then only a certain percentage will have blight resistance. I was mistaken in my belief that these chestnuts were from the originators of the Dunstan Chestnut. That operation is actually Chestnut Hill Tree Farm right here in Gainesville, FL. That location kind of surprised me as that's towards the southern edge of the chestnut's hardiness zone.
Anyway, Chestnut Ridge where I got my chestnuts doesn't list the genetics of their trees. I presume that since they're in the business of selling the nuts that their trees are highly blight resistant. It's my understanding that pure American Chestnuts die from blight soon after maturity, so it would be hard to make money selling their fruit.
Just food for thought.
==================================
I also got my nuts from Chestnut Ridge of Pike County. I called before I bought and the lady assured me that all of her trees are Dunstan's. I'm assuming chestnuts are not like apples and if you get a nut from a Dunstan, you will grow a Dunstan.
I also washed my nuts when they arrived and then spread them out on a paper towel and allowed them to air dry and then put them into ziplok bags with 100 nuts per bag. You all know the rest of the story, if not, I can rehash it.

I wonder if the bleach bath is hurting the situation upon arrival?
The nuts do a lot of drying hanging in the tree waiting to drop. Handled dry, picked dry, then upon arrival a bath with water and bleach. Could the moisture from the bath be soaking slightly into the hull? Could the slight bleaching be killing natural inhibitors on the hull? Or breaking down the natural waxy coating on the hull that protects the nut from mold spores?
Just thinking out loud here, but I have never used a bleach solution for my chestnuts, but I bought some HB acorns that I was told were given a bleach solution before shipping and I'm getting no signs of life from them. Cracked a few of them open to speed up the process and the insides were black in color and no signs of a Tap root.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
I wonder if the bleach bath is hurting the situation upon arrival?
==================================
I've been wondering the same thing. Although it's probably not statistically significant, those nuts that I rinsed in plain tap water germinated 100%, 4 days earlier than those rinsed in bleach. None were lost to mold whereas one of those rinsed in bleach molded. Again, we're only talking about 10 nuts (5 per group), but the bleach certainly doesn't seem to have helped too much, and may have hurt. Bleach is pretty toxic to living organisms. It seems that if it works its way into the nut even in small amounts it could suppress growth or even kill the nut embryo. Just speculating.
The solution that MattPatt mentions above may be a good alternative. I've used a similar sanitizing solution for brewing beer and never had an infection.
I also wonder if the rinse is even necessary. Everybody seems to do it, but this certainly doesn't happen in nature.
Phil

Bigeight, did i understand you correctly, you added damp moss and left them out of the fridge to sprout? Or you put them back in the fridge? Did you redampen your moss any? What did you store them in while they had the damp moss around them?

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
I've been wondering the same thing. Although it's probably not statistically significant, those nuts that I rinsed in plain tap water germinated 100%, 4 days earlier than those rinsed in bleach. None were lost to mold whereas one of those rinsed in bleach molded. Again, we're only talking about 10 nuts (5 per group), but the bleach certainly doesn't seem to have helped too much, and may have hurt. Bleach is pretty toxic to living organisms. It seems that if it works its way into the nut even in small amounts it could suppress growth or even kill the nut embryo. Just speculating.
The solution that MattPatt mentions above may be a good alternative. I've used a similar sanitizing solution for brewing beer and never had an infection.
I also wonder if the rinse is even necessary. Everybody seems to do it, but this certainly doesn't happen in nature.
Phil
==================================
Yeah, it seems when you start messing with nature it usually has some backlash. Seems that a Nut that is going to get dropped in October, lay on the ground all fall, get covered with snow for months, then lay in the spring rains and moist soil while spring warm up probably has some type of natural mold inhibitor, or waxy coating on the shell to keep mold off the nut?????

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by blumsden
Bigeight, did i understand you correctly, you added damp moss and left them out of the fridge to sprout? Or you put them back in the fridge? Did you redampen your moss any? What did you store them in while they had the damp moss around them?
==================================
Yes, the 3 I pulled I added moist spaghnum to and left out. They came to life AROUND 10 days. I have done this a couple years ago and got good germination, only to have a small % stall after putting g in trays.
What I am going to do with the remaining ones, and what I did last year was add moist spaghnum to the bags and put the BACK in the fridge. It will be a slower process, and I'll have to wait longer to put them in the trays. I'll also have a LONG drawn out germination process with this many nuts, some popping in a few weeks, others 10+ weeks, but none stalled on me last year. They were truly all the way stratisfied and READY to come to life, instead of me shocking them with the warm air.
Just my observations from a couple year. And I don't care time wise for when they come to life. I need some for seedlings in trays, some for direct seeding with a taproot and others for growing straight out side in the RM trays. If I HAD to get them ready before spring, I would probably shock them to life with the warm air and moisture.
The whole growing in doors under lights is a REALLY fun, but exhausting, time consuming and expensive. I want to cut down on my babying weeks/months with these trees as much as possible (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Lots of good info here. As per my previous post I added 15 nuts to some damp sphagnum and put them back in cold storage. My hope is that I can time the germination to where they are ready for direct planting in a month or so. Down here our average last frost day is March 24th. I have about 30 nuts remaining in dry storage and am trying to decide if I need to go ahead and do the same treatment or wait a week or two before doing it.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
I wonder if the bleach bath is hurting the situation upon arrival?
==================================
I wasn't clear but I only rinsed with well water prior to placing in the fridge. No bleach for me as it worried me even though it seems most use it. I have other issues though

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
Yes, the 3 I pulled I added moist spaghnum to and left out. They came to life AROUND 10 days. I have done this a couple years ago and got good germination, only to have a small % stall after putting g in trays.
What I am going to do with the remaining ones, and what I did last year was add moist spaghnum to the bags and put the BACK in the fridge. It will be a slower process, and I'll have to wait longer to put them in the trays. I'll also have a LONG drawn out germination process with this many nuts, some popping in a few weeks, others 10+ weeks, but none stalled on me last year. They were truly all the way stratisfied and READY to come to life, instead of me shocking them with the warm air.
Just my observations from a couple year. And I don't care time wise for when they come to life. I need some for seedlings in trays, some for direct seeding with a taproot and others for growing straight out side in the RM trays. If I HAD to get them ready before spring, I would probably shock them to life with the warm air and moisture.
The whole growing in doors under lights is a REALLY fun, but exhausting, time consuming and expensive. I want to cut down on my babying weeks/months with these trees as much as possible (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
So did you just wrap them up in paper towels, or put them back into ziplocks?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
Yeah, it seems when you start messing with nature it usually has some backlash. Seems that a Nut that is going to get dropped in October, lay on the ground all fall, get covered with snow for months, then lay in the spring rains and moist soil while spring warm up probably has some type of natural mold inhibitor, or waxy coating on the shell to keep mold off the nut?????
==================================
OK, I gotta say that you guys might be on to something here....
Last year, not knowing at all what I was doing, I put all of my nuts in bags with damp peat moss (not long fiber). I took the first batch out after 60 days exactly. There were zero root radicles showing on any nuts at that point. I planted those nuts directly in rootmaker cells. It took 19 days to see top growth for the first tree, but I got very good germination rates with very few runts.
Several weeks after removing the first batch, I checked the nuts again. I started to see some slight mold issues but still no root radicles. I did a bleach wash and put them back. When I checked these in another couple weeks some were showing a root radicle starting, so I planted them.
Germination rates were down a bit for this second batch but I also got a lot more runts than the first batch that had no bleach. While the bleach may have some positive effect on retarding mold, it may be having other undesirable effects.
Hummmmm.......
Gator,
What issues are you having. I'm interested to have a no bleach scenario to compare.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by blumsden
So did you just wrap them up in paper towels, or put them back into ziplocks?
==================================
Not sure what you are asking here bud (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I don't use paper towel for anything in this process. Dry, then to damp spaghnum moss, then back to the fridge till germination. Not sure if that answers your question? ????

One more thing about bleach that didn't seem relevant at the time to report but perhaps does now:
When I rinsed my last group of chestnuts in the bleach solution, I wanted to make sure I did not loose orientation, so I did it individually. I lifted the nut from the tray, dipped my hand with the nut into the beach solution, rubbed it with my fingers and then rinsed it under running water before returning it in the same orientation to a new flat with new sphagnum.
After a while, my fingers below the lower knuckle started to sting. It got worse as I continued. I washed them off with water as I rinsed each nut. When I was done I had what looked like a rash on the back of my fingers below the first joint. Cortisone cream had not positive effect. As I watched it over the next few days, I decided that it was not a rash after all.
When I looked closely at it, there was red irritation around each hair follicle on my finger. I believe I got burned.
Sphagnum, and probably the chestnuts from sitting in it, were acidic. The bleach is a base. As bits of sphagnum washed off the nuts into the bleach solution, I believe there was as base acid chemical reaction that chemically burned me. Much of the hair from those fingers is now gone.
After that, I started wearing rubber gloves when messing with bleach.
If I was chemically burned by the base/acid chemical reaction, who know what was happening to those nuts.
I am more and more believing bleach was a bad idea!
Thanks,
jack

Jack, In my case I stored the nuts dry just as you did but I used a product called Star San to sanitize the nuts. If mine come to life and yours don't you may be on to something.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mattpatt
Jack, In my case I stored the nuts dry just as you did but I used a product called Star San to sanitize the nuts. If mine come to life and yours don't you may be on to something.
==================================
What are you sanitizing it from? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
One more thing about bleach that didn't seem relevant at the time to report but perhaps does now:
I believe I got burned.
Sphagnum, and probably the chestnuts from sitting in it, were acidic. The bleach is a base. As bits of sphagnum washed off the nuts into the bleach solution, I believe there was as base acid chemical reaction that chemically burned me. Much of the hair from those fingers is now gone.
==================================
Jack,
I believe that you did get burned, but probably by the bleach itself. That stuff is nasty to the skin!
I do think you hit on something with the acid-base reaction and it may relate to the natural mold resistance that BigEight mentions. Chestnuts are acid-loving and it makes sense that the nuts have a passive immune system that works best in a acid environment. When you add a weak base like bleach, it probably brings the pH to neutral or even slightly basic.
That's something I hadn't even thought of so thanks for mentioning it.
Phil

Phil,
It is funny, my hands are exposed to bleach all the time in much stronger doses than 10% solution. I have never had a reaction to it or any burning. I'm convinced it was an acid/base chemical reaction that burned me, not the bleach itself.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Gator,
What issues are you having. I'm interested to have a no bleach scenario to compare.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I can't get any to root. I believe I over dried my nuts before putting in fridge. I pulled the first 50 out just after Christmas and none ever sprouted so recently they went back in the fridge but with added moisture. I left 10 of them out and just added moisture and moss and none of them have sprouted either. When I returned the first batch back to the fridge I pulled another 50 and added damp moss. After about 3 weeks or so none had sprouted so they have been put back in the fridge as well. I also added damp moss to the other 100 that never came out of the fridge. They all went in on Oct 20 but I don't know exact dates on the other changes. I think big8 nailed it with they didn't stratify bc of lack of moisture. Just hoping they will stratify now that they have moisture

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Gator
I can't get any to root. I believe I over dried my nuts before putting in fridge. I pulled the first 50 out just after Christmas and none ever sprouted so recently they went back in the fridge but with added moisture. I left 10 of them out and just added moisture and moss and none of them have sprouted either. When I returned the first batch back to the fridge I pulled another 50 and added damp moss. After about 3 weeks or so none had sprouted so they have been put back in the fridge as well. I also added damp moss to the other 100 that never came out of the fridge. They all went in on Oct 20 but I don't know exact dates on the other changes. I think big8 nailed it with they didn't stratify bc of lack of moisture. Just hoping they will stratify now that they have moisture
==================================
Gator, lemme know if they are a flop this year. I will have excess it's LOOKING like ( will know for sure in March) if you're interested (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Here's my data point:
Last year I bought 10 pounds from rfarmer20k(?) in October and immediately placed them directly in dampened peat in Ziploc bags with some pin prick holes, into the refrigerator. Moisture would build up inside the bags on the upper surface. I would flip them over every couple of weeks. Four months later they started sprouting still in the fridge and I had to quit flipping them to keep the root pointed in the same direction. I started direct seeding them in February. I had perhaps 6 nuts that had peat &quot;stuck&quot; to them and were &quot;squishy&quot; from being rotten. The project was very successful. I never saw any white mold.
This year I have another 10 pounds from the same guy. They went directly into bags without peat. Moisture does build up on top and I flip them occasionally. On Dec 31st I added the dampened peat. Goal was to delay sprouting. So far so good without mold or sprouting.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Redonthehead
Here's my data point:
Last year I bought 10 pounds from rfarmer20k(?) in October and immediately placed them directly in dampened peat in Ziploc bags with some pin prick holes, into the refrigerator. Moisture would build up inside the bags on the upper surface. I would flip them over every couple of weeks. Four months later they started sprouting still in the fridge and I had to quit flipping them to keep the root pointed in the same direction. I started direct seeding them in February. I had perhaps 6 nuts that had peat &quot;stuck&quot; to them and were &quot;squishy&quot; from being rotten. The project was very successful. I never saw any white mold.
This year I have another 10 pounds from the same guy. They went directly into bags without peat. Moisture does build up on top and I flip them occasionally. On Dec 31st I added the dampened peat. Goal was to delay sprouting. So far so good without mold or sprouting.
==================================
That was my nut source as well. Have you added additional moisture yet? Mold really became a significant issue for me when I took mine out of the fridge and tried to force germination at the time I wanted.
I think my biggest take away this year is to learn to accept what nature gives me and perhaps try to influence it slightly. The more I try to bend it to my will, the more problems I seem to encounter!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
Gator, lemme know if they are a flop this year. I will have excess it's LOOKING like ( will know for sure in March) if you're interested (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
Big8,
If you have excess capacity, please service Gator before you consider me. While I may not have the level of success I had hoped for, I'll still have a significant number of trees. He tried to buy some seedlings from me last year. I would have given them to him (he is local) but I didn't really have any to spare since I was at the beginning of a three year project.
Thanks,
jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
Gator, lemme know if they are a flop this year. I will have excess it's LOOKING like ( will know for sure in March) if you're interested (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
Thanks for the offer. I'm not giving up hope just yet.

I took my nuts out 1/19 as of last weekend none sprouted.
I too wonder if they were too dry....or treated somehow that may have made the sterile.....purchased them from Chestnuthill ( Dunstans).
They were stored in fridge in zip lock bag...nothing else....could they have froze? They still do taste good!
Hope to see a sprout this weekend.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
That was my nut source as well. Have you added additional moisture yet? Mold really became a significant issue for me when I took mine out of the fridge and tried to force germination at the time I wanted.
I think my biggest take away this year is to learn to accept what nature gives me and perhaps try to influence it slightly. The more I try to bend it to my will, the more problems I seem to encounter!
==================================
I added moisture on Dec 31st. But will leave them in the fridge until they start to sprout. If not by mid-March I may take some out to speed things up.

 

[yoderjac]

Can someone diagnose my seedlings? They have a brown color on the ends of the leaves, then they turn black. The leaves are crispy and break easily. Here is a picture.

Here is a pic of a seedling that is a bright red and pink.

Are you using softened water ???

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by spur79
Can someone diagnose my seedlings? They have a brown color on the ends of the leaves, then they turn black. The leaves are crispy and break easily. Here is a picture.

Here is a pic of a seedling that is a bright red and pink.

==================================
I don't know about the ones with leaves. I've had a couple that wither in the early seedling phase and then send up another shoot, then do pretty well. Once they get leaves larger than 1/2 inch, they take off and look very healthy. I can't tell for sure from the pic, but your soil looks awfully dry.
All of my seedlings have had the pinkish/red color in the early shoot stage. Most of them have done well from there, but it's at that stage that they blacken and are replaced by another shoot.

I have only used well water. I was thinking they were getting too much light or too hot.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
I don't know about the ones with leaves. I've had a couple that wither in the early seedling phase and then send up another shoot, then do pretty well. Once they get leaves larger than 1/2 inch, they take off and look very healthy. I can't tell for sure from the pic, but your soil looks awfully dry.
All of my seedlings have had the pinkish/red color in the early shoot stage. Most of them have done well from there, but it's at that stage that they blacken and are replaced by another shoot.
==================================
My hydrometer shows they are wet at root level.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by spur79
I have only used well water. I was thinking they were getting too much light or too hot.
==================================
That could be. I had some seedlings last year that showed the same leaf browning symptoms and I became fairly confident that it was too much light.
Chris

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by spur79
Can someone diagnose my seedlings? They have a brown color on the ends of the leaves, then they turn black. The leaves are crispy and break easily. Here is a picture.

Here is a pic of a seedling that is a bright red and pink.

==================================
My vote is they are begging for a drink. Not sure what potting medium you are using, but the soilless mixes most are using drain water very quickly, and even quicker when they dry out.
If they were mine I would sacrifice 1or 2, probably the one in the upper right and the one in the lower left of the fist pic. I would gently try and work them out of the cell and see how moist they really are. Most likely you will be able to get them back in the rootmaker after you examine them so maybe they won't really be a sacrifice.
Or you could do a float test. Leave the plant in the rootmaker cell and place it in a tub of water and see if it wants to float or sink. If it wants to float, most likely the potting medium has dried.
I neglected to water some of mine last year and they started looking similar to yours. Took each flat and let it soak for about 5 minutes or so and soaked them from the top also.
I may be way off but it wouldn't take to long to rule out moisture level.

I don't think it is too much light. That is pretty hard to do. It may be too much heat from being too close to a hot light. That is one reason I like to use cooler lights like fluorescents. I'm not sure what you are using. I also concur on watering. Once they reach the size of your larger ones pictured, I generally water every day or two at most and I drench them. As others have said, soilless medium/rootmaker cell combination is very well drained.

Things are going slowly but still moving forward. I now have 4 chestnuts that have started to take off:

I have a little over 100 with top growth that are 3&quot; tall or less. I have a bunch more still waiting to emerge.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
I've been wondering the same thing. Although it's probably not statistically significant, those nuts that I rinsed in plain tap water germinated 100%, 4 days earlier than those rinsed in bleach. None were lost to mold whereas one of those rinsed in bleach molded. Again, we're only talking about 10 nuts (5 per group), but the bleach certainly doesn't seem to have helped too much, and may have hurt. Bleach is pretty toxic to living organisms. It seems that if it works its way into the nut even in small amounts it could suppress growth or even kill the nut embryo. Just speculating.
The solution that MattPatt mentions above may be a good alternative. I've used a similar sanitizing solution for brewing beer and never had an infection.
I also wonder if the rinse is even necessary. Everybody seems to do it, but this certainly doesn't happen in nature.
Phil
==================================
For what it's worth, I also got my chestnut from Pike (5 lbs) and did not bleach or rinse them before throwing them in the fridge. I put all of the nuts (170) of them in the fridge on Dec 13th and of as of today I have 18 that have already popped a root and a whole lot more that look as if they are going to pop any day. Knock on wood that so far I have not had any with mold issues yet.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by chaddsmith
For what it's worth, I also got my chestnut from Pike (5 lbs) and did not bleach or rinse them before throwing them in the fridge. I put all of the nuts (170) of them in the fridge on Dec 13th and of as of today I have 18 that have already popped a root and a whole lot more that look as if they are going to pop any day. Knock on wood that so far I have not had any with mold issues yet.
==================================
Very interesting...Let's see how your success rates turn out. Mine are pretty poor right now but things have improved slightly. As of today:
Started with 400 seeds.
I have 4 that have taken off shown in the previous pic plus 110 with some top growth for a total of 114 or 28% that have made it to this stage.
I have another 103 that have show some root radicle and have been planted or 54% that have made it to this stage or better.
I still have 60 to 70 nuts left in flats. Many of those have enough signs of mold that I think they have little chance of rooting. I'd guess I have 20 or so that still have a chance to make it.
Based on all these factors I think the absolute best I can do is a 60% success rate. That presumes I have no down stream issues.
I don't think I'll be using bleach again...
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

Chadd,
Did you place your chestnuts in any kind of medium or just &quot;dry&quot;?
I just placed some Red Fern Farm chestnuts in the refrigerator yesterday. One type already had significant % germination, but not long tap roots.
I obtained from a local dollar store several 18&quot; x 10&quot; aluminum trays (typically used when preparing large batches of food). They were also 2 7/8&quot; deep.
I cut an 18&quot;X10&quot; piece of 20 year landscaping fabric (the fuzzy kind) and placed in the bottom of the tray, fuzzy side up. I then placed moist peat moss filling approximately 2.5&quot; inches. I then placed the chestnuts in the medium with particular attention to keeping them oriented appropriately. I then placed additional peat moss on top just to cover them. Finally, I placed clear plastic wrap on top of the trays in order to keep the medium moist. (I had to use two sheets in order to cover the trays. The point here is that it is not sealed 100%.)
My theory at this point is to let the chestnuts germinate, send the tap root down to the fabric, where it will be pruned by constriction, as in the Rootmaker Roottrapper bags. I have had success before when planting acorns germinated in rootmaker cells and up-planting to smooth sided containers with the landscaping fabric placed inside of the pot. I need to delay planting in rootmaker cells as long as possible as I do not have the room inside (or the desire) to plant the numerous seeds, acorns, and chestnuts and messing with lights, etc.

not a single nut germinating yet.....I took all 72 and soaked them in water for 10 minutes, then back into a zip lock bag and back in the fridge.
I was going to keep them in the fridge another 3 weeks....or until I see activity.
this is frustrating.

I'm beginning to think Chinese chestnut seedlings may be the way to go. LOL None of my Dunstans are showing any signs of life either.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by ROS VEGAS
not a single nut germinating yet.....I took all 72 and soaked them in water for 10 minutes, then back into a zip lock bag and back in the fridge.
I was going to keep them in the fridge another 3 weeks....or until I see activity.
this is frustrating.
==================================
Ros,
Sorry if you already posted this, but did you stratify them with moisture. I know others have had success with the dry storage method, but none of the nuts that I stored dry germinated in the 5 weeks that I had them out. 80% of the nuts that I stored with moist long-leaf sphagnum germinated, some within 3 days of putting out at room temp.
It's hard to control for all the variables, but I believe that these chestnuts need 3 months of cold storage (34-37 deg.) with moisture to stimulate germination.
I'm hoping that the dry storage didn't kill the 20 or so that I stored that way.
Phil

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mattpatt
I'm beginning to think Chinese chestnut seedlings may be the way to go. LOL None of my Dunstans are showing any signs of life either.
==================================
I got 6 Dunstans out of 25 nuts last year---and they are nice size trees already. This year I just found and started some chinese and they are starting to come up in rootmaker 18's. I like the dunstans having some American in them but for feeding deer, I'm going to concentrate on the chinese.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mattpatt
I'm beginning to think Chinese chestnut seedlings may be the way to go. LOL None of my Dunstans are showing any signs of life either.
==================================
All kidding aside, you may be right if you're looking for a maximal germination rate. I read somewhere that the hybridized nuts have a lower germination rate than the 'pure' parents.
I looked up some images of the chinese chestnut tree as I've never seen one before. The growth habit looks a lot like our southern live oaks--a very short, stocky main trunk that branches off to two or more secondary trunks.
I wonder if the deer like them as much?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by THE, LLC
I got 6 Dunstans out of 25 nuts last year---and they are nice size trees already. This year I just found and started some chinese and they are starting to come up in rootmaker 18's. I like the dunstans having some American in them but for feeding deer, I'm going to concentrate on the chinese.
==================================
Interesting. Last year I started with 199 nuts and planted 150 trees. My germination rates were pretty high. I culled some malformed trees.
This year I started with 400 nuts and I'll be lucky to get a 60% germination rate.
I'm not sure how much it has to do with American verses Chinese verses Hybrid and how much has to do with technique.
I will say that there is one Chinese chestnut I'm very interested in but I just can find it at reasonable prices yet.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I will say that there is one Chinese chestnut I'm very interested in but I just can find it at reasonable prices yet.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Jack, What variety are you looking for? Last year I planted three Chinese varieties: Mossbarger, Qing, and Shogun from Red Fern - this might be my only year trying Dunstan. I just added LF sphagnum moss to the 170 nuts I have in the fridge (about 112 days of storage without added moisture - we will see how things go!). I threw out one nut - it seemed soft....all the rest looked good... Next couple of years I am going to change my focus to developing an apple orchard for consumption and juice.

Phil.....
Yes they were dry stored for over 2 months.
The nuts seem to be OK....not dried out inside.....still sweet and tasty!
I'm hoping 3 weeks of moist storage will wake them up.
PS.....i did not treat them at all prior to putting them in the fridge back in late Oct.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by 2ndHand
Jack, What variety are you looking for? Last year I planted three Chinese varieties: Mossbarger, Qing, and Shogun from Red Fern - this might be my only year trying Dunstan. I just added LF sphagnum moss to the 170 nuts I have in the fridge (about 112 days of storage without added moisture - we will see how things go!). I threw out one nut - it seemed soft....all the rest looked good... Next couple of years I am going to change my focus to developing an apple orchard for consumption and juice.
==================================
I'm looking for one of the new Auburn University developed varieties that has later drop dates. I think it would be a good complement to the Dunstan's extending the drop time. As I understand it, it is currently in limited supply and being sold only as part of a package with other varieties. I am looking into it further to see if that is still the case.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by ROS VEGAS
I'm hoping 3 weeks of moist storage will wake them up.
==================================
Just inspected my chestnuts in the fridge and spotted a couple with ~1/8&quot; to 1/4&quot; root. They were moved from &quot;dry&quot; storage (baggie still had moisture form) to &quot;wet&quot; storage in damp peat on Dec 31st. So germination is starting at ~40 days while still in cold storage.
Last year they were in damp peat since Oct and they were much further along at this time. While still early, its looking like &quot;dry&quot; storage was successful at delaying germination.

I used some granular azalea fertlizer on my 8 week old chestnut seedlings 2 days ago and I think some of them got burned. The lower leaves that were looking very healthy are curling at the edges, with dark green into black patches.
I followed the package instructions for top dressing the fertlizer based on plant height. Unfortunately, there was some guess work involved because it was per foot of tree height. My trees are about 10-12&quot; high so I rounded to 1 foot and put about 1/8 teaspoon per plant.
Is there a way to rescue them? Should I water like crazy for a couple of days to try to dilute out the fertilizer? I watered normally immediately after and all the granules are dissolved.
Thanks,
Phil

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Redonthehead
Just inspected my chestnuts in the fridge and spotted a couple with ~1/8&quot; to 1/4&quot; root. They were moved from &quot;dry&quot; storage (baggie still had moisture form) to &quot;wet&quot; storage in damp peat on Dec 31st. So germination is starting at ~40 days while still in cold storage.
Last year they were in damp peat since Oct and they were much further along at this time. While still early, its looking like &quot;dry&quot; storage was successful at delaying germination.
==================================
I hope this is the case! It will mean that mine may still have a chance as I stored mine dry. Two weeks ago I put 15 nuts into wet cold storage. It also means that I need to get the rest of them into wet cold storage ASAP as I plan to direct seed them as soon as they sprout.

I just checked the ones I dry stored. About a quarter of them had sprouted so I threw them in long fibered sphagnum moss to stay until the end of March. Found one that was soft, cut it open and it smelled fermented. Another one had a weavel hole and there was a brown hole through the nut. I'm not sure how long I will be able to delay the rest as the nuts are showing me that it's time!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by phopkinsiii
I used some granular azalea fertlizer on my 8 week old chestnut seedlings 2 days ago and I think some of them got burned. The lower leaves that were looking very healthy are curling at the edges, with dark green into black patches.
I followed the package instructions for top dressing the fertlizer based on plant height. Unfortunately, there was some guess work involved because it was per foot of tree height. My trees are about 10-12&quot; high so I rounded to 1 foot and put about 1/8 teaspoon per plant.
Is there a way to rescue them? Should I water like crazy for a couple of days to try to dilute out the fertilizer? I watered normally immediately after and all the granules are dissolved.
Thanks,
Phil
==================================
I would avoid using regular fertilizer on young seedlings like this. I think you are much safer using Osmocote.

If you think they got burnt, water every other day using twice the volume of the container to get the salts out. Are the leaves wilting off?
Osmocote is a slow release fertilizer and you can get yourself in trouble with that also. If you burn them once, don't use any fert for at least 3 months. Water heavily every couple days to get the fert out for two weeks. After the 3rd soaking you should see an improvement.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by spur79
Can someone diagnose my seedlings? They have a brown color on the ends of the leaves, then they turn black. The leaves are crispy and break easily. Here is a picture.

Here is a pic of a seedling that is a bright red and pink.

==================================
I had an expert look at the chestnuts today. Took her less than a minute to diagnose. She said that I cooked them. Light was too close and burnt the leaves. The new shoots are good but will take time to recover. With my set up she said to lower the light down to 8 hours and 20&quot; above the nuts. Ph and fert were in excellent conditions.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by spur79
I had an expert look at the chestnuts today. Took her less than a minute to diagnose. She said that I cooked them. Light was too close and burnt the leaves. The new shoots are good but will take time to recover. With my set up she said to lower the light down to 8 hours and 20&quot; above the nuts. Ph and fert were in excellent conditions.
==================================
Yep, that is the issue with using some of those professional lights. They use and output a lot of energy but a lot of that energy goes into heat. That means you need to keep those lights much further away than cool fluorescents.
Also, when you combine that heat with low humidity there is a drying effect. Misting can help with this if you can't keep the humidity up.

 

[yoderjac]

I purchased some chestnut and some shellbark hickory seeds last year and am looking forward to planting them this spring. Do any of you have a source for growbags or containers that will last but are not overly expensive? I have about 150 of these in all so I don't want to get carried away with it. Also I am guessing 1 gallon size is what I will need eventually for this first year?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by volleypc
I purchased some chestnut and some shellbark hickory seeds last year and am looking forward to planting them this spring. Do any of you have a source for growbags or containers that will last but are not overly expensive? I have about 150 of these in all so I don't want to get carried away with it. Also I am guessing 1 gallon size is what I will need eventually for this first year?
==================================
http://www.bigrocktrees.com/

My nuts have really slowed down. I'm down to 1 or 2 new nuts producing root radicles per day now. I now getting about 6 per day that are starting top growth.
As if today I have 145 with top growth.

I have 513 with top growth and no more room under the lights. I still have over 600 chestnuts and 150+ acorns that will get direct seeded in the spring. I think I am nuts!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by spur79
I have 513 with top growth and no more room under the lights. I still have over 600 chestnuts and 150+ acorns that will get direct seeded in the spring. I think I am nuts!
==================================
Makes even my original aspirations of 400 look like small potatoes....

Still at zero! How long before I should take them out and try again or should I just not bother until they start sprouting in cold storage?

Before you get carried away, are any of them squishy? If they are they are no good. To check, carefully split the shell with the knife. If they are bad, the nut will be squishy as well. Just toss them.
If I was you I would leave them in cold storage until the tap root is fully extended out of the nut.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by spur79
I have 513 with top growth and no more room under the lights. I still have over 600 chestnuts and 150+ acorns that will get direct seeded in the spring. I think I am nuts!
==================================
I'd hate to have to plant half that many. Heck, a fourth that many.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by THE, LLC
I'd hate to have to plant half that many. Heck, a fourth that many.
==================================
I plan to plant mine in the spring using a planting bar so I don't think it will be that bad.
Last year I planted about 150 with a tractor auger. I think it will be much less effort using the planting bar.

I pulled my first batch of chestnuts, acorns, and apple seeds out of dry storage in my mini fridge. I roll them up in damp paper towel and put them in a zip lock bag in my house fridge tell they start to seed a root out. I had great success with the paper towel last year with almost no mold. Hoping for no sprouting tell beginning of March.

Okay. I have a dilemma guys. Its no secret I have a surplus of the Dunstans and I was hoping for spring to come so I could plant them in their locations, but you can't stop mother nature. I just checked my root box and I have over 200 sprouted and no room in the grow room. Send me your offers. Not sure what to sell them for, so that is why I chose to do it this way.
ALL CHESTNUTS WILL HAVE A ROOT EXTENDED! Some have 4&quot; roots and there is no delaying these in the fridge, they are ready to grow.