Crossed over to the other side

[yoderjac]

I never really thought of crossbows as a poacher's weapon due to the fact that an animal shot with a broadhead can run a long ways and require tracking (often a long process). The poachers here seem to pull up, shoot, lop the head or antlers off, and race off. I find rifle shells on the roads when I run fairly often, usually 3 or 4 together. Sound suppressors on .223's seem to be the poacher's weapon of choice locally; quiet, some knockdown power, multiple shots, quick get away.

It is extremely ineffective. It has the same short range of a bow. The same trailing issues. Poachers are cheaters and lazy by nature. If they were not, they would follow the rules. You nailed it. Subsonic ammo with sound suppression and night scopes are much more efficient for poachers. They are in and out quickly and quietly.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[bueller]

It is extremely ineffective. It has the same short range of a bow. The same trailing issues. Poachers are cheaters and lazy by nature. If they were not, they would follow the rules. You nailed it. Subsonic ammo with sound suppression and night scopes are much more efficient for poachers. They are in and out quickly and quietly.

Thanks,

Jack

Around here the poachers are mainly shooting for thrill or to feed their low income families. Inexpensive small caliber rifles are a heck of a lot more commonly used by them than night scopes, silencers, or crossbows.

 

[yoderjac]

Around here the poachers are mainly shooting for thrill or to feed their low income families. Inexpensive small caliber rifles are a heck of a lot more commonly used by them than night scopes, silencers, or crossbows.

Good point. There are different kinds of poachers. Thrill seekers will use whatever increases their thrill if planned or whatever is handy if not. Folks just trying to feed their families have bigger problems and will likely use whatever they have access to. The poachers that have large effect are those working commercially. Those who sell mounts, body parts, and even meat are the folks who can really have a major impact on wildlife. But you are probably right that we weapons and techniques used are probably as varied as the poachers.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[browndog]

I don't understand why guys like me are sometimes referred to as "selfish".

I agree Tap, I have never understood that. If you don't agree with some people, you are called selfish and all kinds of other crap. I'm against a special season that just happened here in WI and if I voice my opinion about it, I am selfish, blah blah.

 

[Tree Spud]

It is extremely ineffective. It has the same short range of a bow.

I have read dozens of reviews, journals, etc. comparing the two and none of these folks will ever agree with you on these two weapons having any equivalency in a hunting or weapon effectiveness situation.

Every thing I read couches their comments by ... "comparing an experienced compound hunter with an average cross gun hunter ..." that statement is everything.

I really don't care if you choose a cross gun for your weapon of choice, just don't try and tell me free hand artists are no more skilled than paint by number folks ... :rolleyes:

 

[yoderjac]

I agree Tap, I have never understood that. If you don't agree with some people, you are called selfish and all kinds of other crap. I'm against a special season that just happened here in WI and if I voice my opinion about it, I am selfish, blah blah.

I think in this context "selfish" my be an overstatement, but I think in this thread is not generally being use to demean folks voicing a particular opinion. It is more a scale of self-interest verses group-interest keeping in mind that group-interest relies on self-interest. Hunters who can't control hunting pressure (often those who use public land or get permission on private land), see the addition of crossbows as something that will negatively impact their harvest chances. These folks generally are weighing their personal self-interests over the interests of the broader group. They tend to see additional hunters as competition. It is easier for folks who hunt on land with controlled access (private land), to look at the broader group interest since their personal self-interest is less affected. Rather than looking at adding hunters as competition, they view them as allies that will help protect the future of hunting against anti-hunting pressures.

It is easy for folks on one side of the issue or the other to frame it with words with a negative connotation like "selfish".

Thanks,

Jack

 

[buckdeer1]

It's easier than a vertical bow but to each their own.If they want them during bow season they should use open sites

 

[yoderjac]

I have read dozens of reviews, journals, etc. comparing the two and none of these folks will ever agree with you on these two weapons having any equivalency in a hunting or weapon effectiveness situation.

Every thing I read couches their comments by ... "comparing an experienced compound hunter with an average cross gun hunter ..." that statement is everything.

I really don't care if you choose a cross gun for your weapon of choice, just don't try and tell me free hand artists are no more skilled than paint by number folks ... :rolleyes:

I was suggesting that is extremely ineffective as a poaching weapon compared to the alternatives. I've never said the skill level required for hunting with a crossbow was the same as a compound bow, but I have said the skill level difference between a recurve and a compound is much greater than between a compound and a crossbow. Having said that, the ballistics between a modern compound bow and a crossbow are very comparable.

I live in a state where crossbows have been legal for a number of years now. Most folks I know who use crossbows are folks who previously used compound bows or kids being introduced to bowhunting. Initially there was a surge of gun hunters who erroneously thought crossbows were more similar to firearms than bows. They didn't last long. Crossbows have had a negligible effect on our deer numbers. They have kept older folks in the sport longer and allowed kids to enter the sport sooner.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

It's easier than a vertical bow but to each their own.If they want them during bow season they should use open sites

I would argue just the opposite in terms of sights. Many of the older folks I know that have moved from a compound to a crossbow was not due to lack of strength as much as a degradation of eyesight, especially in low light. Trying to center a pin in a peep and focus on a spot on a deer requires the eye to focus at three distances but the eye can only focus on one distance at a time. This becomes even more difficult as we age. Optics on a crossbow not only allow slight magnification, they increase brightness and put the sight and deer in the same focal plane. This makes it easier to focus on a spot on the deer which translates into less wounding and higher recovery rates.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Ouachita]

I would argue just the opposite in terms of sights. Many of the older folks I know that have moved from a compound to a crossbow was not due to lack of strength as much as a degradation of eyesight, especially in low light. Trying to center a pin in a peep and focus on a spot on a deer requires the eye to focus at three distances but the eye can only focus on one distance at a time. This becomes even more difficult as we age. Optics on a crossbow not only allow slight magnification, they increase brightness and put the sight and deer in the same focal plane. This makes it easier to focus on a spot on the deer which translates into less wounding and higher recovery rates.

Thanks,

Jack

My personal experience is exactly as Jack described. Glad the cataract surgery restored my vision and allowed me to resume my compound bow, my personal preference compared to the cross bow. Any sighting device that reduces bad hits on deer, gets my vote

 

[Jordan Selsor]

This may sound like a rant but I don't understand why many bow hunters (I am one) think they own the woods and/or should own the rut???
I have always said they should issue the tags to manage the herd appropriately and you can kill them however the heck you want! Excluding sling shots lol
This would give hunter flexibility so the woods aren't pressured like crazy during a rifle seasons etc..
Wonder what this countries founding fathers would think looking at today's hunting regs?!
It's about freedom boys;)
kiss method!
Keep it simple!

 

[Jameson]

... For gun season in Wis, over 600,000 hunters take to the woods. That is 1 hunter for every 57 acres.

I am not sure we could get much more hunter saturation. :(

Gun Youth Oct 8 & 9
Gun Nov 19-27
...

Saturated onto an unaware deer herd is the key. You have plenty of days of bow hunters and youth hunters alarming the deer before the 600,000 hit the woods.

I agree Tap, I have never understood that. If you don't agree with some people, you are called selfish and all kinds of other crap. I'm against a special season that just happened here in WI and if I voice my opinion about it, I am selfish, blah blah.

Usually the people being called selfish are the bowhunters who don't want a special season for crossbows when they already have one for themselves. Don't want a crossbow season, then get rid of bow-season, and youth-season, and muzzy-season. Just have a single season for everyone and every weapon to hunt deer.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Catscratch and Yoderjac at posts # 105 & 106 - I don't disagree that a small caliber rifle with a sound suppressor wouldn't be a better / quicker (?) method of poaching a deer. But having to track a bleeding deer doesn't stop poachers here in Pa. I have witnessed the actions ( evidence ) of poachers here that shot deer with bows AND guns. Shoot the deer now - drive off and come back in 3 to 8 hours and track / retrieve the deer. One of these events took place on our hunting camp property several years ago. Poacher shot a deer, drove off, and returned about 6 hours later ( we narrowed it down ) and followed the blood trail to the deer. 2 of us were at the camp when it happened. Road shooter. We couldn't get down to the road quick enough to catch them. Warden came and hid in the woods for over 3 hours to try and catch the poacher. He gave up & left - poacher came back somewhere in the next 3 hours and retrieved the deer. We found the drag mark where he pulled the deer off a bank and onto the road, blood and hair at the scene.

I also overheard a guy bragging to his buddies in a restaurant about a deer he shot on posted ground with his bow and how he went back after dark to track and retrieve the deer. ( This was about 15 years ago ).

My point is - I don't think an immediate kill with the deer dropping in it's tracks from a .223 w/ silencer is the only way for poachers to go. Following a blood trail hours later after the shot ( with any weapon ) doesn't seem to be a deterrent. In the mountains where I hunt, a .22 crack echoes off the sides of ridges, but a bolt from a x-bow won't. One guy driving, possibly holding a spotlight ( if after dark ) and the other guy in the bed of a truck with a x-bow. Maybe in wide open country the .223 w/ silencer would be favored, but in our area - the x-bow would be perfect.

 

[yoderjac]

Catscratch and Yoderjac at posts # 105 & 106 - I don't disagree that a small caliber rifle with a sound suppressor wouldn't be a better / quicker (?) method of poaching a deer. But having to track a bleeding deer doesn't stop poachers here in Pa. I have witnessed the actions ( evidence ) of poachers here that shot deer with bows AND guns. Shoot the deer now - drive off and come back in 3 to 8 hours and track / retrieve the deer. One of these events took place on our hunting camp property several years ago. Poacher shot a deer, drove off, and returned about 6 hours later ( we narrowed it down ) and followed the blood trail to the deer. 2 of us were at the camp when it happened. Road shooter. We couldn't get down to the road quick enough to catch them. Warden came and hid in the woods for over 3 hours to try and catch the poacher. He gave up & left - poacher came back somewhere in the next 3 hours and retrieved the deer. We found the drag mark where he pulled the deer off a bank and onto the road, blood and hair at the scene.

I also overheard a guy bragging to his buddies in a restaurant about a deer he shot on posted ground with his bow and how he went back after dark to track and retrieve the deer. ( This was about 15 years ago ).

I'm not suggesting that crossbows are not used for poaching. As I said in another post, there are lots of different kinds of poaching. I'm suggesting that the lore of "crossbows being the weapon of poachers" is false. Poachers will use any and all weapons. Every weapon has characteristics that make is more or less effective for any given purpose. Sure, crossbows have some characteristics that make them useful to poachers, but so do all other weapons. A handgun is smaller and easier to conceal. A rifle had a long range. A shotgun slug can be hidden easily while a shotgun fits in with small game season. Poaching is broader than trespass to shoot game. Some poach by hunting out of season.

Some would say "guns don't kill people do...they are just tools". The same is true for crossbows. Like any weapon, they can be the chosen tool of a poacher, just like a truck, pair of binoculars, or treestand can. They are not the clear weapon of choice for poachers.

While I don't have data to show it, I would guess they are involved in a tiny fraction of game law violations where the illegal harvest of deer is involved.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

Catscratch and Yoderjac at posts # 105 & 106 - I don't disagree that a small caliber rifle with a sound suppressor wouldn't be a better / quicker (?) method of poaching a deer. But having to track a bleeding deer doesn't stop poachers here in Pa. I have witnessed the actions ( evidence ) of poachers here that shot deer with bows AND guns. Shoot the deer now - drive off and come back in 3 to 8 hours and track / retrieve the deer. One of these events took place on our hunting camp property several years ago. Poacher shot a deer, drove off, and returned about 6 hours later ( we narrowed it down ) and followed the blood trail to the deer. 2 of us were at the camp when it happened. Road shooter. We couldn't get down to the road quick enough to catch them. Warden came and hid in the woods for over 3 hours to try and catch the poacher. He gave up & left - poacher came back somewhere in the next 3 hours and retrieved the deer. We found the drag mark where he pulled the deer off a bank and onto the road, blood and hair at the scene.

I also overheard a guy bragging to his buddies in a restaurant about a deer he shot on posted ground with his bow and how he went back after dark to track and retrieve the deer. ( This was about 15 years ago ).

My point is - I don't think an immediate kill with the deer dropping in it's tracks from a .223 w/ silencer is the only way for poachers to go. Following a blood trail hours later after the shot ( with any weapon ) doesn't seem to be a deterrent. In the mountains where I hunt, a .22 crack echoes off the sides of ridges, but a bolt from a x-bow won't. One guy driving, possibly holding a spotlight ( if after dark ) and the other guy in the bed of a truck with a x-bow. Maybe in wide open country the .223 w/ silencer would be favored, but in our area - the x-bow would be perfect.

Gotcha. Poachers are dishonest, criminal, and and unethical by most's standards. It isn't suprising that they will use about any methods or means available. Also isn't suprising that they will act in ways that don't make since though my eyes. We are different people...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Big Snow Man]

Wow this thread has taken on a life of its own. It started with a guy who is now using a crossbow and now we're at small caliber rifles with silencers.

 

[Booner21]

I have shot a compound bow for 16 yrs in four shots i was better with the crossbow. I shoot my compound out to 80 on a regular basis. I also bought the cheapest crossbow I could find and I don't believe inside of 40 yards that you could miss. I won't hunt with the crossbow but my 5 year old is quickly becoming a crack shot with it. In Illinois it is either a crossbow regular bow or shotgun he won't be able to handle a 20 guage or pull 40lbs for a while but the crossbow will get him out earlier.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[UP Powers]

I have shot a compound bow for 16 yrs in four shots i was better with the crossbow. I shoot my compound out to 80 on a regular basis. I also bought the cheapest crossbow I could find and I don't believe inside of 40 yards that you could miss. I won't hunt with the crossbow but my 5 year old is quickly becoming a crack shot with it. In Illinois it is either a crossbow regular bow or shotgun he won't be able to handle a 20 guage or pull 40lbs for a while but the crossbow will get him out earlier.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

40 yards off hand and you can't miss with a crossbow?? wow. I shoot one all the time and I am way better with my compound than a crossbow. Bench shoot a crossbow, different story. 80 yards with a compound that is impressive, no doubt. I would never shoot a crossbow or a compound that far, but I have zero doubt in your abilities. Just too many variables in my opinion to shoot at an animal. Paper??? I would try it, but no sense practicing that far as I would never shoot at an animal, so why even try it. Rifle?? different story. :)

 

[yoderjac]

40 yards off hand and you can't miss with a crossbow?? wow. I shoot one all the time and I am way better with my compound than a crossbow. Bench shoot a crossbow, different story. 80 yards with a compound that is impressive, no doubt. I would never shoot a crossbow or a compound that far, but I have zero doubt in your abilities. Just too many variables in my opinion to shoot at an animal. Paper??? I would try it, but no sense practicing that far as I would never shoot at an animal, so why even try it. Rifle?? different story. :)

There is something to be said for that approach if long range shooting temps you to take longer shots at animals. However, if you have the discipline to keep your field shots short, I find that long range practice with a compound really helps my short range shooting consistency. Errors and inconsistencies in my shooting form may not be as evident at short range. Long range target shooting helps me improve my form. I try to reinforce my subconscious mental picture with target selection. At hunting range, I like to use deer like targets, either 3D or a block with the deer silhouette side. At longer ranges, I'll shoot only at traditional targets.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[big L]

Don't deny being selfish at all. See my later posts. Warped sense of mind because I want to hunt a deer in a more strategic and ethical way than sitting over a corn pile with an arrow gun. Hokayyyyy buddy
Want to tryout my air gun?
It shoots apples off heads like Wm Tell...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk