Crossed over to the other side

[Tap]

I can pick up my compound bow at anytime and hit a dessert plate at 30 yards all day long. The cams, the string, the riser, the tuning, the sights, the rest, etc.. I mean.. just one thing.. let off!!! I mean.. recurve.. if you are not anchored absolutely perfectly everytime, you are all over the board. With a modern bow, you have a mechanical release and my bow has a DEAD stop at the anchor. I just absolutely LAUGH when the so called "old guard" complain about xbows. Compounds of today are not bows, they are technology marvels compared to anything from yesteryear. I would love for some of these Old Guard people to set down their 2000 dollar compound bow set ups and pick up a recurve and LETS SEE HOW GOOD OF A SHOT YOU REALLY ARE WITH A BOW, LETS SEE YOU PULL BACK 65 POUNDS ON A RECURVE. PHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Why?? because all those clowns have 85% let off with mechanical sights and kisser buttons and mechanical releases and torsion bars and laser sighting range finders. It's a joke.. Pick up a recurve and shoot 50 arrows at 65 pounds and see how many you put in a pie plate at 30 yards. fyi "old guard".. most recurves don't have sights... it's instinctive. So, you need to judge distance and aim with the assistance of 40 things on your bow.

You are correct. It's also true that modern, compound arrow projectors (it's hard to call them "bows" these days) produce enough energy that 45 pounds will kill just about any animal in North America. All but the smallest child or handicapped have the strength to pull adequate poundage compounds.

I switched back to a recurve in 1992 when I disagreed with the direction archery gear was headed in those days. I use no sights and I can tell you that I shoot as well or better than I did with a 1990 era compound...except my effective range is shorter. Pretty much anyone can hunt ethically with traditional equipment if they accept their personal limitations.
Personal, self imposed limitations are what bow season is supposed to be about. But it now seems that legal limitations is what too many hunters are concerned with. "Whatever is legal" right? And, if what I want is not currently legal, I will lobby until it is legalized and then I'll chastise anyone who disagrees.
There are a few other societal issues we can compare this to.

 

[Tap]

Honest question to everyone. If they set a 'crossbow only' season like they do rifle and muzzleloader would that make bowhunters happy? I get the impression that some purest bowhunters feel they are being boxed out of 'their' season.

I would be more than satisfied. I have nothing against crossbows any more than I have anything against firearms. I just don't believe guns have a place in bow season and I feel the same about crossbows in bow season.
I don't hunt with a flintlock or in-line, but I fully support a flintlock hunter's efforts to keep in-line guns out of the primitive season.
But the big argument will be exactly when the timeframe would be for the crossbow guys. Everyone wants to hunt the primetime.

 

[Catscratch]

My opinion is crossbow season and the DNR doing a shitty job are two different issues.

My first response was to a post or two that said that crossbow hunters were ruining archery season by pushing for inclusion. I stated that it was a change in our state that was brought by politics and money, not by data or hunter input. I was told I was wrong, that is was brought in as a proper management tool. I replied, sighting things that confirm my stance that management has little to do with crossbow inclusion. My posts in this thread has drug on too long to read clearly.

Don't mistake my stance on crossbows. I certainly don't care if anyone uses a crossbow. My boy bought one when he was 8 and shot deer with it. I've shot several deer with it and will probably shoot more. I equate them as the same as a compound... just different. I perk up when someone says they shot a deer with a recurve or long bow as that is truly impressive to me, everything else just falls into the same category.

 

[yoderjac]

Are you saying that Kansas is putting hunters first right now? That they are using good biological studies to make decisions for hunting regulations? That adding crossbows to a 3 month archery season in a state with declining deer numbers was their tool to manage harvest based on data collection? I say their actions point towards using politics to grub money and boast false numbers in a declining state economy.
By merging the Department of Wildlife and Parks with Tourism, they took the power from the biologists and put it in legislators hands (one legislator was quoted as saying he wanted to add crossbows because his beans had deer in it every morning so there must be too many deer, we should add crossbows so that there will be less crop damage). There are no harvest reports anymore. No check-ins. We no longer send teeth in so the State can have data on age classes. Last yr the State determined they were going to issue an added 3000 tags to "meet demand" because they had more applications than tags. I fail to see where "Wildlife biologists collect data that can be used to estimate the impacts (intended and unintended) of particular management techniques used to achieve those objectives.". We have a declining herd, there is no data collection or actual harvest reports, and the State is making it ever easier to issue tags.

Nope. I'm not saying anything about Kansas or any other state other then my own when it comes to the performance of their respective game departments. I don't know enough about the details of what is going on in other individual states.

What I am saying is that independent of the state, "special interest" usually means "not my interest". All kinds of groups have their own interests. Deer hunters, as a group, are no different than any other group. They want to be able to enjoy their chosen pastime and they want deer managed so they can do that. Some environmental group may have a special interest in restoring predators to their original range. Some alliance of crossbow companies may have an interest in increasing sales and profits of their product. Some insurance company trade group may have an interest in reducing deer/vehicle collisions to reduce pay-out and increase profit. Drivers may have a similar interest in reducing injury and fatality. Farmers may have an interest in reducing crop damage....The list goes on.

I'm just saying that politics is the mechanism by which all of these interests are balanced and some objective for deer populations (and the populations of other managed species) is set. Wildlife professionals are supposed to collect data to allow us to better understand the complex interactions, monitor populations, and give us the best estimates of what consequences (intended or otherwise) will result from the possible choices. Once objectives are set, they then attempt to set regulations to best achieve those objectives.

In the old days, folks thought of managing deer in terms of biological carrying capacity. That was largely in the realm of wildlife professionals. Today, we think of managing deer in terms of both biological carrying capacity as well as cultural carrying capacity. This reaches well beyond the realm of wildlife professionals into politics but wildlife professionals clearly play a role.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[CheeseCurd]

Don't deny being selfish at all. See my later posts. Warped sense of mind because I want to hunt a deer in a more strategic and ethical way than sitting over a corn pile with an arrow gun. Hokayyyyy buddy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I still hunt archery season with a compound bow I bought in 1989. I started out with a Bear Kodiak Magnum recurve. I don't own a x-bow, but don't care if someone else uses one.

The one thing I will say is that - here in Pa. at least - for a state Game Commission that was ( for years ) hugely concerned with poaching, they certainly legalized the perfect, silent " car weapon ". The Pa. Game Commission BEGGED people to call the warden when they heard shots at night or at any illegal time / season of the year. It sure seems counter-productive to then legalize x-bows which can shoot out of a car window with deadly accuracy and make virtually no noise !! I'm not making an argument against the legal use of x-bows for hunting, but rather questioning the sanity of our so-called " professional " game agency.

As far as POLICY goes - I've hunted in Pa. for 46 years now, and I can tell you that with all the added seasons, increased doe tag sales, and use of regular rifles during archery season, and in-line m-loaders - we have far fewer deer than in years past. Our camp members moan all the time about not seeing deer, but they'll buy all the tags the Pa. Game Commission is selling and shoot anything they see ( " because if I don't, the next guy will " ). How is that a formula for more / better deer hunting ???????????

 

[yoderjac]

I still hunt archery season with a compound bow I bought in 1989. I started out with a Bear Kodiak Magnum recurve. I don't own a x-bow, but don't care if someone else uses one.

The one thing I will say is that - here in Pa. at least - for a state Game Commission that was ( for years ) hugely concerned with poaching, they certainly legalized the perfect, silent " car weapon ". The Pa. Game Commission BEGGED people to call the warden when they heard shots at night or at any illegal time / season of the year. It sure seems counter-productive to then legalize x-bows which can shoot out of a car window with deadly accuracy and make virtually no noise !! I'm not making an argument against the legal use of x-bows for hunting, but rather questioning the sanity of our so-called " professional " game agency.

As far as POLICY goes - I've hunted in Pa. for 46 years now, and I can tell you that with all the added seasons, increased doe tag sales, and use of regular rifles during archery season, and in-line m-loaders - we have far fewer deer than in years past. Our camp members moan all the time about not seeing deer, but they'll buy all the tags the Pa. Game Commission is selling and shoot anything they see ( " because if I don't, the next guy will " ). How is that a formula for more / better deer hunting ???????????

I think crossbows were thought of as a poachers weapon for many years from the old days before compound bows. It was both because they are quiet (relative to a gun) and didn't take the skill to be effective that a recurve bow did. Unless you are spotlighting shooting deer at night, they don't really have the effective range to be shot from a car. This is likely the thing that kept them from being legalized in many states for so long.

Today, a crossbow would likely be too much work for a poacher with subsonic ammunition and silencers more available. I doubt that crossbows account for a significant percentage of poaching.

When I was growing up in PA, shooting does was considered unmanly. Deer were highly overpopulated and the age structure was abysmal with anything with antlers shot. The "if I don't shoot it someone else will" is the bane of public land. In a public land setting, that can only be changed by education and changing the ethic.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tree Spud]

My opinion is crossbow season and the DNR doing a shitty job are two different issues.

How can you separate the two? The DNR is the authority over seasons & weapons, how can they not own the results?

 

[kabic]

How can you separate the two? The DNR is the authority over seasons & weapons, how can they not own the results?

If the DNR is doing a shitty job they are going to issue too many doe tags regardless if crossbows are legal or not.

 

[Tree Spud]

If the DNR is doing a shitty job they are going to issue too many doe tags regardless if crossbows are legal or not.

Isn't that the exact problem with the DNR's approach ... more weapons in more seasons, saturate the hunting landscape with more hunters, give out more doe tags ... the problem is that the deer begin to go nocturnal. Or they get pushed to areas where there is less pressure.

Giving hunters more opportunities has been proven to fail, holding hunters accountable by earning more opportunities by harvesting a class of animal has been shown to be successful. Right now there are too many hunters out there who are woefully under prepared to harvest an animal or will not harvest a doe.

 

[Tree Spud]

I think crossbows were thought of as a poachers weapon for many years from the old days before compound bows. It was both because they are quiet (relative to a gun) and didn't take the skill to be effective that a recurve bow did. Unless you are spotlighting shooting deer at night, they don't really have the effective range to be shot from a car. This is likely the thing that kept them from being legalized in many states for so long.

Today, a crossbow would likely be too much work for a poacher with subsonic ammunition and silencers more available. I doubt that crossbows account for a significant percentage of poaching.

When I was growing up in PA, shooting does was considered unmanly. Deer were highly overpopulated and the age structure was abysmal with anything with antlers shot. The "if I don't shoot it someone else will" is the bane of public land. In a public land setting, that can only be changed by education and changing the ethic.

Thanks,

Jack

Hunters in our area are not that sophisticated. Game wardens in our area tell me that crossbows are they primary weapons for poachers these days. Add night vision googles or a back yard motion activated light and you are in business.

Cars, trucks, vans at night work very well for guys who are out shinning deer. The light freezes the deer and make for an easy roadside kill.

 

[Greta&Gus]

Isn't that the exact problem with the DNR's approach ... more weapons in more seasons, saturate the hunting landscape with more hunters, give out more doe tags ... the problem is that the deer begin to go nocturnal. Or they get pushed to areas where there is less pressure.

Giving hunters more opportunities has been proven to fail, holding hunters accountable by earning more opportunities by harvesting a class of animal has been shown to be successful. Right now there are too many hunters out there who are woefully under prepared to harvest an animal or will not harvest a doe.

I don't think that is a fair assessment of hunters in the current state. The loss of deer across the country started over 10 years ago and was perpetrated more by the idea of killing does than anything else. That had nothing to do with crossbows ad most were killed by rifles or shotguns.

 

[Tree Spud]

I don't think that is a fair assessment of hunters in the current state. The loss of deer across the country started over 10 years ago and was perpetrated more by the idea of killing does than anything else. That had nothing to do with crossbows ad most were killed by rifles or shotguns.

I don't know what you are implying by "country" ... if there is a loss of deer in Wisconsin, why is the DNR so focused on reducing the population?

I look at the 10 years of "earn a buck" in Wisconsin, harvest #'s were up and more importantly the doe harvest was up.

The DNR misapplied this approach by going state wide, in areas where the doe harvest was not necessary, but a more balanced & higher harvest was achieved.

Do you think crossguns in the archery season will lead to a higher doe harvest?

 

[Jameson]

The recent posts remind me of some research that I read once upon a time. It found that the way to kill the most deer was to have the most hunters afield on the first day of the season with the most efficient weapon. Basically only allow the gun hunters to hunt one weekend and have them be the first to hit the woods for the fall. Or, cram every nook and cranny possible with a gun hunter onto unsuspecting deer.

Following that thinking...if crossbows being allowed during archery season lessons the gun hunters on opening day, and stinks up the woods more prior to gun opener, then more deer are going to be in nonhuntable places and more nocturnal than now for gun season. It could likely lead to fewer deer harvested overall unless other regulation changes are made like lengthening seasons, more tags per hunters, allowing hunters to hunt multiple seasons, etc... Those regulations may keep the deer harvest up, but will help create spots with too many deer that cannot be hunted.

 

[UP Powers]

You are correct. It's also true that modern, compound arrow projectors (it's hard to call them "bows" these days) produce enough energy that 45 pounds will kill just about any animal in North America. All but the smallest child or handicapped have the strength to pull adequate poundage compounds.

I switched back to a recurve in 1992 when I disagreed with the direction archery gear was headed in those days. I use no sights and I can tell you that I shoot as well or better than I did with a 1990 era compound...except my effective range is shorter. Pretty much anyone can hunt ethically with traditional equipment if they accept their personal limitations.
Personal, self imposed limitations are what bow season is supposed to be about. But it now seems that legal limitations is what too many hunters are concerned with. "Whatever is legal" right? And, if what I want is not currently legal, I will lobby until it is legalized and then I'll chastise anyone who disagrees.
There are a few other societal issues we can compare this to.

I admire your limitation and tenacity to shoot a true archery weapon. There are probably a handful of people on this forum that actually do what you do. HANDFUL!!! Certainly not the OLD GUARD that shoot their 2000 dollar "bows". I will say that off hand with my xbow is way harder than it looks!! I actually feel more confident off hand with my compound bow. But, I will pick up anything and shoot it ok. I just enjoy shooting. I enjoy hunting. I love the fact that I can walk up to my guns and have a choice when I walk to the woods. I always have two guns with my during rifle season and it's fun to pick them out. why??? watch any OLD western, guys in a shootout always had two guns!!! :) Trust me I have seen 1000's with my dad! I rarely use the second! But, it's a great story and a great memory of my dad.

 

[Tree Spud]

The recent posts remind me of some research that I read once upon a time. It found that the way to kill the most deer was to have the most hunters afield on the first day of the season with the most efficient weapon. Basically only allow the gun hunters to hunt one weekend and have them be the first to hit the woods for the fall. Or, cram every nook and cranny possible with a gun hunter onto unsuspecting deer.

Following that thinking...if crossbows being allowed during archery season lessons the gun hunters on opening day, and stinks up the woods more prior to gun opener, then more deer are going to be in nonhuntable places and more nocturnal than now for gun season. It could likely lead to fewer deer harvested overall unless other regulation changes are made like lengthening seasons, more tags per hunters, allowing hunters to hunt multiple seasons, etc... Those regulations may keep the deer harvest up, but will help create spots with too many deer that cannot be hunted.

Jameson ... In Wis we have 33 days of gun hunting and Archery runs from Sept 14 - Jan 8. When I purchase my archery & gun license I receive 2 buck & 4 doe harvest permits. For gun season in Wis, over 600,000 hunters take to the woods. That is 1 hunter for every 57 acres.

I am not sure we could get much more hunter saturation. :(

Gun Youth Oct 8 & 9
Gun Nov 19-27
Gun Metro Units Nov 19-Dec 7
Gun Antlerless Dec 8-11
Muzzleloader Nov 28 - Dec 7
Gun Holiday antlerless Dec 24 - Jan 1

 

[Bowsnbucks]

My earlier post at #91 wasn't to say x-bows are the reason deer numbers are down in various states. I was only pointing out that for poaching ( night shooting, day shooting, out of vehicles - x-bows are a perfect weapon. ( Agree with Tree Spud at post # 96 ). I think most of us on here hate poachers - they only add to the declining numbers. For those of you who have great deer numbers and need more does taken ......... I assure you - you are in the minority. Count your blessings. But be aware of one thing - it can all come crashing down in a matter of 2 to 3 years with heavy killing. It takes MUCH longer to re-build a herd than it takes to decimate one.

The remote back roads in Pa. have been fertile grounds for night shooting out of vehicles with GUNS for years. How much less likely is it for someone to be caught when there is no " BOOM " in the middle of the night ??? Wardens were having a tough enough time catching night poachers before x-bows were for sale here in sporting goods stores and became legal. ( In Pa., the typical shot out a vehicle window would be less than 60 yds. in most wooded areas. ) For those of you in the big ag areas, your giant fields would lessen the chances with a x-bow because of longer distances. Some guys say it's hard to shoot a x-bow out a vehicle window. Really ??? New x-bows are slimmer and narrower than earlier models.

I can only speak for Pa.'s situation. For a State Game Commission that was hell-bent to nail any & all poachers / night shooters, the Commission sure put the perfect weapon out there for jack-lighters. In the rural, hilly, mountainous areas of the state, a x-bow is a dream come true.

 

[kabic]

Jameson ... In Wis we have 33 days of gun hunting and Archery runs from Sept 14 - Jan 8. When I purchase my archery & gun license I receive 2 buck & 4 doe harvest permits. For gun season in Wis, over 600,000 hunters take to the woods. That is 1 hunter for every 57 acres.

I am not sure we could get much more hunter saturation. :(

Gun Youth Oct 8 & 9
Gun Nov 19-27
Gun Metro Units Nov 19-Dec 7
Gun Antlerless Dec 8-11
Muzzleloader Nov 28 - Dec 7
Gun Holiday antlerless Dec 24 - Jan 1

I don't feel that 600,000 hunters is a bad thing. That is 600,000 people that get to enjoy the outdoors. Besides a lot of those hunters probably hunt less than half of the 9 day gun hunt. I also feel your 33 days of gun hunting is a little misleading. That may be true for your county, but where I hunt, I get 19 days (Gun & Muzzleloader), 21 days if you include the youth hunt. Archery gets something like 84 days, archers get plenty of opportunity.

If we are sharing our greedy thoughts, I would like to see an early muzzle loader season that has rules similar to western states. If I was being extra greedy I would shut down archery (bows and crossbows ) during this hunt.

Just my opinion, and I don't expect anyone to change their opinion

 

[Tap]

I admire your limitation and tenacity to shoot a true archery weapon. There are probably a handful of people on this forum that actually do what you do. HANDFUL!!! Certainly not the OLD GUARD that shoot their 2000 dollar "bows". I will say that off hand with my xbow is way harder than it looks!! I actually feel more confident off hand with my compound bow. But, I will pick up anything and shoot it ok. I just enjoy shooting. I enjoy hunting. I love the fact that I can walk up to my guns and have a choice when I walk to the woods. I always have two guns with my during rifle season and it's fun to pick them out. why??? watch any OLD western, guys in a shootout always had two guns!!! :) Trust me I have seen 1000's with my dad! I rarely use the second! But, it's a great story and a great memory of my dad.

Thank you.
For me, there are basically 2 objections to why I don't agree that crossbows should be included in bow season. But let me say again that I don't have anything against crossbows any more than I have anything against firearms...However, neither should be legal weapons in bow season because they aren't bows.
My main objection isn't so much the advanced technology in bow season, my main objection is the slide away from the lesser advanced gear, because the slide shows no signs of abating. If everyone would agree that 'this is as far as we go', then I'd show much less resistance toward crossbows in bow season. But it's easy to see that the current state of weapons will continue to advance. When will the legalization of new weapons cease? It won't. It's depressing that so few hunters, manufacturers, and game departments don't realize where this is all leading. We are killing the "sport"...I hate calling hunting of any kind "a sport". Football is a sport. Killing something is not.
My other objection is the loss of bow season. Yes, we have a season where bows are legal, but it's no longer "archery only". At least not here in Pa.
I don't understand why guys like me are sometimes referred to as "selfish". I've posted on dozens of threads about this issue, and my stance has always been about the season. I'm just trying to protect our season.
It's a shame that a lot of "archery" hunters today have never experienced releasing an arrow with their fingers, or holding the weight of a bow at full draw with their own muscles and not by mechanical advantage.
We've moved so far away from true archery equipment, yet it still isn't enough.
Whatever is legal? No, whatever is rewarding for me.

 

[Catscratch]

I never really thought of crossbows as a poacher's weapon due to the fact that an animal shot with a broadhead can run a long ways and require tracking (often a long process). The poachers here seem to pull up, shoot, lop the head or antlers off, and race off. I find rifle shells on the roads when I run fairly often, usually 3 or 4 together. Sound suppressors on .223's seem to be the poacher's weapon of choice locally; quiet, some knockdown power, multiple shots, quick get away.