Crossed over to the other side

[Tap]

Far from it. More like slow pitch softball, fast pitch softball, and baseball. Same general game but with some changes in equipment and rules to allow a broader range of folks to participate at a level that works for them.

Maybe, but they don't slow-pitch a softball to a lower skilled hitter during a baseball game. They don't mix and match equipment. The game is what it is. Either play that game as established or don't play. Don't demand the game be changed to accommodate the unable or the unwilling. The game is what it is, or at least it used to be. But these days, the most basic, clear-cut, literal definitions are being perverted. Just what the heck is a bow anyways? They have become unrecognizable machines, not primitive weapons.

Bowhunting with traditional equipment is baseball. Bowhunting with high-tech compounds is slow pitch softball. Hunting with a crossbow is "T" ball. We don't allow "T" ballers into baseball games just to increase participation or to make someone feel better about themselves and their level of skill.

Bow season is long gone. It died years ago. It was murdered by hunters that refused to accept the limitations, difficulties, and challenges of hunting with low tech weapons. It's now morphed into such things as "airbows". There are a few states that have resisted crossbow legalization in bow season, but they will eventually cave.
In Pa we share bow season with every weapon from self bows to high powered rifles. There is no bow season any more.

 

[yoderjac]

Maybe, but they don't slow-pitch a softball to a lower skilled hitter during a baseball game. They don't mix and match equipment. The game is what it is. Either play that game as established or don't play. Don't demand the game be changed to accommodate the unable or the unwilling. The game is what it is, or at least it used to be. But these days, the most basic, clear-cut, literal definitions are being perverted. Just what the heck is a bow anyways? They have become unrecognizable machines, not primitive weapons.

Bowhunting with traditional equipment is baseball. Bowhunting with high-tech compounds is slow pitch softball. Hunting with a crossbow is "T" ball. We don't allow "T" ballers into baseball games just to increase participation or to make someone feel better about themselves and their level of skill.

Bow season is long gone. It died years ago. It was murdered by hunters that refused to accept the limitations, difficulties, and challenges of hunting with low tech weapons. It's now morphed into such things as "airbows". There are a few states that have resisted crossbow legalization in bow season, but they will eventually cave.
In Pa we share bow season with every weapon from self bows to high powered rifles. There is no bow season any more.

As an interesting aside, they did a study where they took professional male baseball players and had them try to hit against female fast pitch softball pitchers. They consistently struck out. Their hitting percentage was way lower than their major league batting average.

The point is that my attitude was similar to yours until I started learning about and using a crossbow so I could cover it in my classes. My first crossbow hunt was simply because I didn't want to teach hunting safely with a weapon I had not hunted with. My attitude changed over time. The difference between my effectiveness with a recurve compared to a compound is much greater than my effectiveness with a compound compared to a crossbow.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

None of this was ruined by hunters. The State legislators and weapon manufactures are making these changes. Kansas was bragging yesterday in the news about the increases in the Department of Tourism's income over the last 6yrs. Guess what has happened in the last 6yrs or so... the department of Wild and Parks was combined with the department of Tourism. What else has happened in the last 6yrs... a crossbow company met with legislators and then shortly after crossbows were included into archery season. I think a lot has also happened due to insurance companies and reported auto accidents.

I feel little of the changes we are seeing are driven by wildlife biologist and actual data, but by special interest groups and money. States want to be able to report good things, companies want to sell more product, and politicians need campaign donations...

 

[yoderjac]

I think all of the discussions of crossbow use need to focus on the resource and if the state agency that sets seasons will react fast enough to preserve the resource. I voted against crossbow use for all during bow season last year. I don't feel our DNR can react fast enough to preserve the herd in doe LotteryAreas since all bow hunters have an either sex tag.

With very healthy deer numbers, crossbow use will make no difference. Deer numbers are declining in many areas and pressure on the resource should be the primary consideration.

I wonder if we are conflating several things here. The first question I would ask is what is the resource? Is it deer numbers at all cost? It is deer quality? Is it all game animals? Is it recreational hunting? Does it include non-game animals? Does it include plant life? Does it include economics? Is it a balance across all of these and more?

I think most reasonable folks would agree that it is a balance of many factors. Few would agree on the weighting of those factors since we all have vested interests in some but not others.

Once that balance is decided, the next question is what tools are available to achieve the objectives.

I can't speak to the fine points of states outside my own. In our state, each county is assigned an objective of increasing, stabilizing, or decreasing the population. The number of female deer killed through all forms of bowhunting are so low compared to firearm hunting, the most effective tool for population control is the number of doe days permitted in each county.

Archery seasons with or without crossbows tend to provide more days of recreational hunting opportunity with less impact on the number of deer harvested. Doe days during firearm seasons tend to have the most impact on populations.

While I'm sure hunters in states with declining populations have legitimate concerns about how populations are being managed, I think of seasons and regulations as tools for that population management as well as hunter management. Not all tools have the same effect.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

None of this was ruined by hunters. The State legislators and weapon manufactures are making these changes. Kansas was bragging yesterday in the news about the increases in the Department of Tourism's income over the last 6yrs. Guess what has happened in the last 6yrs or so... the department of Wild and Parks was combined with the department of Tourism. What else has happened in the last 6yrs... a crossbow company met with legislators and then shortly after crossbows were included into archery season. I think a lot has also happened due to insurance companies and reported auto accidents.

I feel little of the changes we are seeing are driven by wildlife biologist and actual data, but by special interest groups and money. States want to be able to report good things, companies want to sell more product, and politicians need campaign donations...

Sure, but why are the interests of crossbow companies, insurance companies, etc. "special" and those of hunters are not. We all have a vested interest in some things more than others. Politics is the mechanism for balancing those competing objectives. Objectives are in the realm of politics. Wildlife biologists collect data that can be used to estimate the impacts (intended and unintended) of particular management techniques used to achieve those objectives.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tap]

None of this was ruined by hunters.

If hunters wouldn't buy the stuff, then manufacturers wouldn't sell the stuff, and game departments wouldn't legalize the stuff.



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Catscratch]

If hunters wouldn't buy the stuff, then manufacturers wouldn't sell the stuff, and game departments wouldn't legalize the stuff.



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

True. Kind of egg or chicken first type of thing.
I truly don't think crossbows were sought out by the majority of bow hunters (I didn't know anybody campaigning for them). I think crossbow manufactures sought states that didn't have an open season for them and told the States that they would increase revenue if they opened their hunting up to crossbows (increased tag sales, hotel stays, taxes through outfitters, fast food, etc...). Once seasons were opened up to them then they had a new population sell to. Of course the majority of hunters have to have the newest and greatest things on the market; camo, cold weather clothing, new stands, a new bow every yr., scent control products, "deer corn", acorn crush, etc... Hunters buy anything available. New stuff on the market always sell.

 

[Bszweda]

Its a win/win/win government makes more money, companies make more money, and hunters have more freedom in the way they hunt? Anytime the government gives you more freedom its a win! People by nature are selfish and aren't very good at sharing.

 

[Bill]

Either play that game as established or don't play. Don't demand the game be changed to accommodate the unable or the unwilling.

None of this was ruined by hunters. The State legislators and weapon manufactures are making these changes. Kansas was bragging yesterday in the news about the increases in the Department of Tourism's income over the last 6yrs. Guess what has happened in the last 6yrs or so... the department of Wild and Parks was combined with the department of Tourism. What else has happened in the last 6yrs... a crossbow company met with legislators and then shortly after crossbows were included into archery season. I think a lot has also happened due to insurance companies and reported auto accidents.

I feel little of the changes we are seeing are driven by wildlife biologist and actual data, but by special interest groups and money. States want to be able to report good things, companies want to sell more product, and politicians need campaign donations...

I tend to agree, I never pushed for rule changes. But now that the ref changed the game, Im taking full advantage of it. Never killed a deer with one. Maybe after I do I won't like it.

I've killed 5 bucks in 10 years. Have a self imposed 1 buck a year limit (unless the second is a freak of nature) on land that I paid for, care for and continue to pay taxes on. I'm going to do as I see fit on my land within the bounds of the law.

I can live with the thought of someone else faulting for me doing that.

 

[Greta&Gus]

Honest question to everyone. If they set a 'crossbow only' season like they do rifle and muzzleloader would that make bowhunters happy? I get the impression that some purest bowhunters feel they are being boxed out of 'their' season.

 

[bueller]

Honest question to everyone. If they set a 'crossbow only' season like they do rifle and muzzleloader would that make bowhunters happy? I get the impression that some purest bowhunters feel they are being boxed out of 'their' season.

It seems to me (at least in WI) that the bowhunters don't want to share the rut with crossbow hunters. I bet there would be next to no complaining if crossbows were legal from the opener until Oct 15th and then again after the rifle season.

 

[H20fwler]

They have been legal in Ohio since the 80's....didn't ruin anything here. I could care less what someone uses to legally hunt.

 

[momatt]

Heck I might as well chime in. My first bow was a Ben Pearson bracket wheel compound in about 1980 or so. Probably pulled about 20 pounds. I think I was in second grade. In 5th grade dad said if I raised each grade one letter, he'd buy me a new compound bow and as soon as I could pull 40 pounds and shoot accurately I could accompany him deer hunting. That was a Proline compound. In about 8th grade I saw an ad for a Bear "Flare" and I had to have one. I sold my proline and well, learned about girls. Soon I was broke with no bow and deer season coming. I picked up dad's old AMF wing recurve and fell in love. I hunted with that through high school and college then bought a G Fred Asbell Custom bighorn takedown recurve. I hunted with that made my own wood arrows, even harvesting a deer with an ancient flint point. A few years ago I turned 40 and with 5 kids I had not been shooting often, and I found that I couldn't hit the 3d deer well, spraying arrows around 12 inch groups at 20 yards. I knew I wanted to hunt, and it wasn't right to make a bad hit. I ordered a bow from bowhunters friend, came sighted in with a release sight quiver arrows and a case. I think its a PSE. I came home for lunch the day it came and the first shot was a bullseye. I could hit a snuff can sized dot at 40 yards immediately. Confident to hit a deer at 50 yards immediately. I've only had it a few years and have killed 5 or 6 deer already. That's nearly as many as I killed all those years with a stick bow. It took me many thousands of shots to get where I could keep arrows on a target at 30 yards in a beer can sized group. My effective range was never much over 25 yards, though I killed much small game out as far as 50. Many times deer jumped the string, even though it was quiet as a whisper, 600-700 grain arrows at 180 fps with 160 grain broadheads. I can see why early compounds were considered cheating by the bowhunters of the day. Personally the gap between a competent healthy hunter like myself with a compounds vs a crossbow is not much. Most anyone with any athleticism can pick up a modern compound and drill the target on the first night so long as the bow is set up right. I welcome all ethical bowhunters x-cross or others to the woods. Good hunting to you, and don't believe you are someone who has mastered a impressive skill as you can drill a 3d deer with a modern compound at 40 yards. So can about any high school athlete with about 20 minutes of instruction.

 

[yoderjac]

I have to say that I'm not sure it matters much whether or not I've got a crossbow or vertical bow in my hand these days. I'm passed the stage where I see it as a competition with other hunters. On Tuesday, I was hunting with a crossbow and had a Jake at 10 yards in my sights. I decided just to let it walk and watch the birds. They hung around for 45 minutes before milling off. That hunt would have been no more enjoyable if I had let an arrow fly. In fact, it probably would have been less enjoyable for me.

I certainly understand the view of folks who feel like they are competing with other hunters. There was a time in my life when I felt the same. For many, but not all, time and life experience tends to change perspective...

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Jameson]

Honest question to everyone. If they set a 'crossbow only' season like they do rifle and muzzleloader would that make bowhunters happy? I get the impression that some purest bowhunters feel they are being boxed out of 'their' season.

Rifle season does not make bowhunters happy, adding more days that bowhunters have to share the woods is also not going to make them happy.

Just make everyone have the same season already. If some are unwilling to hunt with anything but a bow and are unable to get a deer then don't change the season just for their demands.

 

[Jordan Selsor]

Shot my First deer with a bear whitetail II
In 1980.

Shot my Last deer Nov 2015 with a browning rem 7 mm mag.

At the end of day I shot em both.

I'm going to keep shooting at them with what ever is legal.

Wait for the air bow. It's Coming. But so what?

It's not about how you shoot them "for me". It's about how you raise them, care for them, and promote their presence on your Land.

Feel the exact same Bill and the memories made with family. My dad wounded a nice buck few years back an became disgusted and refused to pick up a bow. Now my dad is excited about archery season again. We set up a week to hunt together at the end of the month! I'm happy MDC made that change. It's funny how all those against it have one thing in common when stating why. Most of their written explanations contains allot of "me" an "l". Let's think about others y'all

 

[UP Powers]

Heck I might as well chime in. My first bow was a Ben Pearson bracket wheel compound in about 1980 or so. Probably pulled about 20 pounds. I think I was in second grade. In 5th grade dad said if I raised each grade one letter, he'd buy me a new compound bow and as soon as I could pull 40 pounds and shoot accurately I could accompany him deer hunting. That was a Proline compound. In about 8th grade I saw an ad for a Bear "Flare" and I had to have one. I sold my proline and well, learned about girls. Soon I was broke with no bow and deer season coming. I picked up dad's old AMF wing recurve and fell in love. I hunted with that through high school and college then bought a G Fred Asbell Custom bighorn takedown recurve. I hunted with that made my own wood arrows, even harvesting a deer with an ancient flint point. A few years ago I turned 40 and with 5 kids I had not been shooting often, and I found that I couldn't hit the 3d deer well, spraying arrows around 12 inch groups at 20 yards. I knew I wanted to hunt, and it wasn't right to make a bad hit. I ordered a bow from bowhunters friend, came sighted in with a release sight quiver arrows and a case. I think its a PSE. I came home for lunch the day it came and the first shot was a bullseye. I could hit a snuff can sized dot at 40 yards immediately. Confident to hit a deer at 50 yards immediately. I've only had it a few years and have killed 5 or 6 deer already. That's nearly as many as I killed all those years with a stick bow. It took me many thousands of shots to get where I could keep arrows on a target at 30 yards in a beer can sized group. My effective range was never much over 25 yards, though I killed much small game out as far as 50. Many times deer jumped the string, even though it was quiet as a whisper, 600-700 grain arrows at 180 fps with 160 grain broadheads. I can see why early compounds were considered cheating by the bowhunters of the day. Personally the gap between a competent healthy hunter like myself with a compounds vs a crossbow is not much. Most anyone with any athleticism can pick up a modern compound and drill the target on the first night so long as the bow is set up right. I welcome all ethical bowhunters x-cross or others to the woods. Good hunting to you, and don't believe you are someone who has mastered a impressive skill as you can drill a 3d deer with a modern compound at 40 yards. So can about any high school athlete with about 20 minutes of instruction.

very well written and great post!! I feel the same way. I can pick up my compound bow at anytime and hit a dessert plate at 30 yards all day long. The cams, the string, the riser, the tuning, the sights, the rest, etc.. I mean.. just one thing.. let off!!! I mean.. recurve.. if you are not anchored absolutely perfectly everytime, you are all over the board. With a modern bow, you have a mechanical release and my bow has a DEAD stop at the anchor. I just absolutely LAUGH when the so called "old guard" complain about xbows. Compounds of today are not bows, they are technology marvels compared to anything from yesteryear. I would love for some of these Old Guard people to set down their 2000 dollar compound bow set ups and pick up a recurve and LETS SEE HOW GOOD OF A SHOT YOU REALLY ARE WITH A BOW, LETS SEE YOU PULL BACK 65 POUNDS ON A RECURVE. PHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Why?? because all those clowns have 85% let off with mechanical sights and kisser buttons and mechanical releases and torsion bars and laser sighting range finders. It's a joke.. Pick up a recurve and shoot 50 arrows at 65 pounds and see how many you put in a pie plate at 30 yards. fyi "old guard".. most recurves don't have sights... it's instinctive. So, you need to judge distance and aim with the assistance of 40 things on your bow.

great post... can't agree with you more. Excellent and I mean Excellent post!!!!!!!!!!! :)

 

[sandbur]

I wonder if we are conflating several things here. The first question I would ask is what is the resource? Is it deer numbers at all cost? It is deer quality? Is it all game animals? Is it recreational hunting? Does it include non-game animals? Does it include plant life? Does it include economics? Is it a balance across all of these and more?

I think most reasonable folks would agree that it is a balance of many factors. Few would agree on the weighting of those factors since we all have vested interests in some but not others.

Once that balance is decided, the next question is what tools are available to achieve the objectives.

I can't speak to the fine points of states outside my own. In our state, each county is assigned an objective of increasing, stabilizing, or decreasing the population. The number of female deer killed through all forms of bowhunting are so low compared to firearm hunting, the most effective tool for population control is the number of doe days permitted in each county.

Archery seasons with or without crossbows tend to provide more days of recreational hunting opportunity with less impact on the number of deer harvested. Doe days during firearm seasons tend to have the most impact on populations.

While I'm sure hunters in states with declining populations have legitimate concerns about how populations are being managed, I think of seasons and regulations as tools for that population management as well as hunter management. Not all tools have the same effect.

Thanks,

Jack

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but the resource is adequate doe numbers to maintain a deer population. We have plenty of tools to control the doe population in 80% of our state. Too many tools in my book. Wolves, bears, DNR that does not give a rip about deer..

 

[UP Powers]

90 yard pin?? How many blood trails do you follow with that in your 30 years?

HAHAHAH He has every blood trail documented and can tell you where he has shot every deer for the past 38 years.. At least that is what he said a while ago.

90 yards... PHHHHHHHHHHHHH My nephews have. But the are literally archery freaks and in their 20's and built like a brick out houses. They aren't 58!

 

[sandbur]

I have to say that I'm not sure it matters much whether or not I've got a crossbow or vertical bow in my hand these days. I'm passed the stage where I see it as a competition with other hunters. On Tuesday, I was hunting with a crossbow and had a Jake at 10 yards in my sights. I decided just to let it walk and watch the birds. They hung around for 45 minutes before milling off. That hunt would have been no more enjoyable if I had let an arrow fly. In fact, it probably would have been less enjoyable for me.

I certainly understand the view of folks who feel like they are competing with other hunters. There was a time in my life when I felt the same. For many, but not all, time and life experience tends to change perspective...

Thanks,

Jack

Can you shoot hens? I would like to see our turkey populations dropped dramatically.