Wild Turkey population is tanking across most of its range

For those who don’t know, South Georgia quail plantations are the most heavily managed predator ecosystem in the country probably. They have the pockets and connections to not stop at pesky little things like regulations and laws. If it crawls walks or flies…it dies if it’s a threat to the quail. Turkeys are also extremely lightly hunted on these mega sized plantations. Even they are reporting extremely bad turkey numbers. I think predators are easily blamed but I’m not sure they are the end all be all issue.
 
SwampCat said:
That is not what I took from it. Go to around the 44 min mark or so and listen - harper states “the big limiting factor that we have easily identified is predators”.

I dont take that statement as “arent too high on the predators are the problem theory”. I guess we just have different interpretations of his statement😎
Click to expand...
I was talking more about the hosts than Harper.
 
Howboutthemdawgs said:
For those who don’t know, South Georgia quail plantations are the most heavily managed predator ecosystem in the country probably. They have the pockets and connections to not stop at pesky little things like regulations and laws. If it crawls walks or flies…it dies if it’s a threat to the quail. Turkeys are also extremely lightly hunted on these mega sized plantations. Even they are reporting extremely bad turkey numbers. I think predators are easily blamed but I’m not sure they are the end all be all issue.
Click to expand...
I agree 100%. I have always said predators have the worst DIRECT effect. Habitat doesnt directly kill a lot of turkeys, but habitat condition may greatly effect how successful predators may be at killing turkeys or nests. Rain may not kill a lot of turkeys, but hens sitting on the nest in a soaking rain give off more scent and are more easily detected by predators. We used to have a lot of high turkey densities in areas considered not very high value turkey habitat - yet turkeys did fine in the days of reduced predator numbers. With the predator density we now have, turkey densities in those same areas are very depressed.

I agree 100% - the turkey decline is multi faceted - and for all us turkey hunters, that is a very good thing - because very few people are willing or able or have the right circumstances to put in the time and effort it takes to consistently reduce predators year after year.

The fact that Harper said what he said, is good enough for me😎
 
In KS the decline was widespread over a very large and very diverse area. From farmland, to pastureland, to woods and hills... the populations declined. From organic farms to heavily sprayed and synthetic fert farms. From pockets with few coons to area's with tons of them. The year the decline started several of us found sick and dieing birds that proved to be widespread. The state never got back with any of us about disease though. It would be difficult to point at one thing in management as the cause. KS did recently remove the fall season, and we had a very good pult year last yr. Related? Maybe.
 
Turkish said:
I was talking more about the hosts than Harper.
Click to expand...
I was talking all about Harper and not the hosts. In my opinion, Harper is currently the leading expert on turkey research in the SE. Even in his short podcast, he was hesitant to say things he could not back up with factual data. Unlike Chamberlain, who made a living spreading an unproven theory.
 
It's not predators in my area or the habitat keeping the numbers low. It has to be something else.
 
BenA said:
It's not predators in my area or the habitat keeping the numbers low. It has to be something else.
Click to expand...
Same. Hunting in South Georgia in the mid to late 90’s on crap timber company land was amazing. 10-12 bird mornings. Habitat hasn’t changed one bit. Same pine rotation and no predator management. Number ms are in the tank
 
Catscratch said:
In KS the decline was widespread over a very large and very diverse area. From farmland, to pastureland, to woods and hills... the populations declined. From organic farms to heavily sprayed and synthetic fert farms. From pockets with few coons to area's with tons of them. The year the decline started several of us found sick and dieing birds that proved to be widespread. The state never got back with any of us about disease though. It would be difficult to point at one thing in management as the cause. KS did recently remove the fall season, and we had a very good pult year last yr. Related? Maybe.
Click to expand...
AR stopped its fall either sex season and it had no effect on poult production. Yes - there are a myriad of things that effect turkey densities. I challenge you to find a study that determines the leading cause for turkey decline is something besides poor nesting success and poult mortality. I am all ears. I so wish they would find something else because it would probably be easier to offset than predation.

AR went to a late season opener about 14 years ago - and two years later - we had an outstanding poult recruitment year. The late season move looked like genius. But then we went through ten straight years of dismal poult production.

It appears, AR also had a good poult recruitment year last year also - but we stopped our fall season about 15 years ago. It didnt fix our problem, it would be fantastic if that is all it takes in KS. Didnt KS also limit NR? Missouri is discussing that option. NE has done it. Maybe over hunting turns out to be limiting - an easy fix.
 
SwampCat said:
AR stopped its fall either sex season and it had no effect on poult production. Yes - there are a myriad of things that effect turkey densities. I challenge you to find a study that determines the leading cause for turkey decline is something besides poor nesting success and poult mortality. I am all ears. I so wish they would find something else because it would probably be easier to offset than predation.

AR went to a late season opener about 14 years ago - and two years later - we had an outstanding poult recruitment year. The late season move looked like genius. But then we went through ten straight years of dismal poult production.

It appears, AR also had a good poult recruitment year last year also - but we stopped our fall season about 15 years ago. It didnt fix our problem, it would be fantastic if that is all it takes in KS. Didnt KS also limit NR? Missouri is discussing that option. NE has done it. Maybe over hunting turns out to be limiting - an easy fix.
Click to expand...

SwampCat, I'm not trying to argue with you or say you are wrong. I'm giving anecdotal evidence (what I've witnessed) from a different part of the country. Nobody believes in removing predators more than I do to give these birds a fighting chance. I trap and monitor coons on my place extensively. But the fact is that coon populations did not change substantially when the turkey population started declining. Plus the decline happened on places that had very few coons as well as places that had tons of coons.

I wish it was as easy as predators (a single contributing factor). Anyone who puts a little time in can significantly lower a coon population.
 
BenA said:
It's not predators in my area or the habitat keeping the numbers low. It has to be something else.
Click to expand...
In a couple of years, KY will have some answers when their study is over. I will go on record now that the number one direct cause limiting turkey recruitment in KY is lack of nesting success due to predation. 100%, I hope I am wrong and it turns out to be something more easily fixed than predation. Harper has been studying turkeys for a long time in your neighboring state, and his statement of “the big limiting factor that we have easily identified is predators” says quite a bit.

But, that does not mean that you can only treat “the big limiting factor” to positively influence poult recruitment. Maybe other things can be done that also increase poult recruitment.

Many of us on this forum have reached our maximum effort in habitat management. I dont mean everything has been done on our land that can be done - I mean everything has been done that you can do or afford. I could pay someone to come in and mulch my 300 acres of woods to open it up and leave the desirable species - but I am not going to. But I can still trap a little, I enjoy it, it costs me almost nothing, and I believe it makes a positive difference.

Turkeys are tough to manage, in my opinion. If you have very few turkeys, it takes very few predators to maintain the turkey’s low density. The deer population on my land has quadrupled in 20 years. Not counting this year, the turkey population has declined by 75%. It is difficult with 350 acres to positively affect turkey density when your neighbors on both sides plant fescue and mow hay in late may and june. But I still give it hell👍🏻
 
Catscratch said:
SwampCat, I'm not trying to argue with you or say you are wrong. I'm giving anecdotal evidence (what I've witnessed) from a different part of the country. Nobody believes in removing predators more than I do to give these birds a fighting chance. I trap and monitor coons on my place extensively. But the fact is that coon populations did not change substantially when the turkey population started declining. Plus the decline happened on places that had very few coons as well as places that had tons of coons.

I wish it was as easy as predators (a single contributing factor). Anyone who puts a little time in can significantly lower a coon population.
Click to expand...
I am not saying it is only predators. I am saying the number one direct cause the research has determined is predation on nests. It is not easy for most of us to control predators. If we all owned 2000 acres, it might be easier. If you own 50 or 100 acres - it is dang near impossible.

All my next door neighbor does to have the highest population of deer in the area and the best bucks is greatly reduce hunting pressure. He plants fescue. He runs herds of cows. He mows during fawning season. He sprays herbicide by the barrel - yet he is covered up with deer - like a deer per five acres.

The fact that the number one cause, as determined by research, is lack of nesting success due to predation in no way means that is the only cause for the turkey decline. I have said that three or four times, that I believe the decline is due to a number of things - I dont know how else to say it.
 
SwampCat said:
I was talking all about Harper and not the hosts. In my opinion, Harper is currently the leading expert on turkey research in the SE. Even in his short podcast, he was hesitant to say things he could not back up with factual data. Unlike Chamberlain, who made a living spreading an unproven theory.
Click to expand...
That guy is the best in the business
 
That is one of my perennial Clover fields. I am giving up on perennial clover and will only plant annuals going forward.

That said, the turkeys love this field. I rarely see them in my thick rye and clover fields.
 
Turkeys on my property will stay in my plots for several hours everyday when stuff grows tall enough that they can barely see over the top of the "crop". Plenty of insects for them and the type of cover they feel comfortable in I guess. They will roost in the trees on the edge of the plots too. Never very far away all summer long. No idea where they go during the winter though. They have not come back yet this year.
 
I wonder if we are talking about different things? One year we had a flock of 200 winter birds, the next yr it was 20. The "decline" I'm talking about was not a long drawn out slope downward as much as it was almost over night. They've stayed steady at that level since that year. This last year was the first uptick we've seen since the year they all disappeared. My view on predators in this situation is that they likely did not (in a single year) drastically change a turkey population (by 50% or more) that had been steady for more than a decade. Nest predators are likely (like you said) very high on the list of reasons they have not rebounded from that year. I firmly believe like you do that nest predators are HUGE in ground nesting bird numbers. I'm struggling to make sense that nest predators changed a steady population in such a short amount of time. We did not have a trend, we had an event.
 
Catscratch said:
I wonder if we are talking about different things? One year we had a flock of 200 winter birds, the next yr it was 20. The "decline" I'm talking about was not a long drawn out slope downward as much as it was almost over night. They've stayed steady at that level since that year. This last year was the first uptick we've seen since the year they all disappeared. My view on predators in this situation is that they likely did not (in a single year) drastically change a turkey population (by 50% or more) that had been steady for more than a decade. Nest predators are likely (like you said) very high on the list of reasons they have not rebounded from that year. I firmly believe like you do that nest predators are HUGE in ground nesting bird numbers. I'm struggling to make sense that nest predators changed a steady population in such a short amount of time. We did not have a trend, we had an event.
Click to expand...
My northern WI place had great turkey numbers until 2013/2014, when we had 2'+ of snow from December through April. That winter wiped out 90% of the turkey numbers and the high predator numbers prevented much of a rebound. The turkey numbers are still low up there over a decade later.

I've seen diseases wipe out squirrel and rabbit populations following extremely high population cycles, so I'm sure some type of disease also could kill a significant % of turkeys. The ability to rebound could be then hampered by high predators and/or poor nesting habitat. I'm sure there are a number of variables involved in the turkey declines, but predators are definitely a contributing factor.
 
There have been studies that have shown declines may be linked to diseases such as lymphoproliferative. The disease may not show themselves with physical symptoms, but they have been shown to affect fertility.
 
Catscratch said:
I wonder if we are talking about different things? One year we had a flock of 200 winter birds, the next yr it was 20. The "decline" I'm talking about was not a long drawn out slope downward as much as it was almost over night. They've stayed steady at that level since that year. This last year was the first uptick we've seen since the year they all disappeared. My view on predators in this situation is that they likely did not (in a single year) drastically change a turkey population (by 50% or more) that had been steady for more than a decade. Nest predators are likely (like you said) very high on the list of reasons they have not rebounded from that year. I firmly believe like you do that nest predators are HUGE in ground nesting bird numbers. I'm struggling to make sense that nest predators changed a steady population in such a short amount of time. We did not have a trend, we had an event.
Click to expand...
I agree. I think predators would cause a more gradual decline over years. The study harper and his crew are doing, I believe includes feather and tissue collection to determine if there are any toxic contaminates in the turkeys. A number of the later research has included those tests, also. But I have not read a study that indicated they had found a problem - yet. He did say, of the nests that were not predated, there was a successful hatch rate of around 85% - in his area.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top