White Spruce VS Norway

[Cool Hand Luke]

I know there's been discussion on both but I'm looking for any of your experiences with one vs. the other. All the good, bad, etc... I tried researching but just didn't see much on White Spruce.

I was planning to order Norways from the Iowa DNR, as their pricing blows my local SWCD out of the water. Well, I waited too long and now all they have available is White Spruce. I don't know much about White Spruce and it doesn't seem like it's the favored variety. They're going into a sandy/loamy, slightly rolling field with a south facing exposure. Browsing pressure shouldn't be an issue as I don't have much cover on the property yet.

Had good luck with the Norways I got last year from the SWCD but I also got them at $1 per tree as the sale was over and they were looking to get rid of them. Regular price is almost $3. This is going to be a large planting, (for me anyways), row planting bordering an ag field conversion. I've got about 400 trees/shrubs I'm looking to get in this spring.

 

[ruskbucks]

I have both planted. I definitely like Norways alot better for screening. They have the drooping branches that hold on close to the ground. They also grow faster and taller than the white spruce. That being said whites are a nice looking tree. I don't think it would be a bad idea to mix some in. I remember arguing with my old man on planting pines and spruce to block off the road at home. I wanted to plant all blue spruce because they looked the best. He wanted to plant all different kinds together. It ended up he was right all our blue spruce got a disease and had to be cut down. All the others did great and are doing a great job of screening 35 years later.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I have both planted. I definitely like Norways alot better for screening. They have the drooping branches that hold on close to the ground. They also grow faster and taller than the white spruce. That being said whites are a nice looking tree. I don't think it would be a bad idea to mix some in. I remember arguing with my old man on planting pines and spruce to block off the road at home. I wanted to plant all blue spruce because they looked the best. He wanted to plant all different kinds together. It ended up he was right all our blue spruce got a disease and had to be cut down. All the others did great and are doing a great job of screening 35 years later.

Thanks for the input. I was wondering about growth rates and you answered it. Also great tip on planting variety. How did you plant the pine and spruce together and what kind of spacing? Just rotate them back and forth?

 

[ruskbucks]

The first picture is a Norway on the left. A white spruce is right of it and then one of the sick blue spruce that is slowly dieing and getting thin. The white spruce are about the same hight but the norways have more volume. The spacing we did I think was about 15 ft apart and then where we did a second row about 10ft forward in between the 2 trees in the back row. This seemed to work great for about 25 years. Now looking at them they could use a little more room but then they wouldn't of filled in as good in the early years. I screwed up on my hunting property and planted 300 scotch pine along with a few white and blue spruce. The scotch grew awesome super fast but after about 10 years they started losing their lower branches. Still a fairly good screen but a few spots you can see thru.Wish I would of went with norways. The white spruce are finally starting to get about 15 ft at 20 years old. Blue spruce are not good looking at all.

 

[Tree Spud]

I have planted a lot of norway and blue spruce. Norway are one of the fasted growing spruces. I also have sandy loam soil and the norways have done well.

I like having 2 rows of of norway, with in my case blue spruce in between. I think the blue & white spruce might be better for bird roosting the way the branches lay out.

You can always spread about 8oz of 10-10-10 fertilizer outside of the branch drip zone to help them along. Stay away from anything higher such as 17-17-17 as you'll end up burning the roots and killing the tree.

The key is water. You need to get them in early in the spring, as soon as the ground thaws, so you can get those spring rains.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

The first picture is a Norway on the left. A white spruce is right of it and then one of the sick blue spruce that is slowly dieing and getting thin. The white spruce are about the same hight but the norways have more volume. The spacing we did I think was about 15 ft apart and then where we did a second row about 10ft forward in between the 2 trees in the back row. This seemed to work great for about 25 years. Now looking at them they could use a little more room but then they wouldn't of filled in as good in the early years. I screwed up on my hunting property and planted 300 scotch pine along with a few white and blue spruce. The scotch grew awesome super fast but after about 10 years they started losing their lower branches. Still a fairly good screen but a few spots you can see thru.Wish I would of went with norways. The white spruce are finally starting to get about 15 ft at 20 years old. Blue spruce are not good looking at all.

This a great comparison, thank you for the pictures! So in your opinion Scotch pine is a no go? I feel like I want some white pine for fast growth but I know how messy they can be and pretty bare but potentially could be good roosting for turkeys?

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I have planted a lot of norway and blue spruce. Norway are one of the fasted growing spruces. I also have sandy loam soil and the norways have done well.

I like having 2 rows of of norway, with in my case blue spruce in between. I think the blue & white spruce might be better for bird roosting the way the branches lay out.

You can always spread about 8oz of 10-10-10 fertilizer outside of the branch drip zone to help them along. Stay away from anything higher such as 17-17-17 as you'll end up burning the roots and killing the tree.

The key is water. You need to get them in early in the spring, as soon as the ground thaws, so you can get those spring rains.

This is all good to know. Do you try and fertilize right after planting? I planted about 50 last spring and fall and so far I think I only lost two. I didn't do anything but water once a week the first month.

 

[ruskbucks]

This a great comparison, thank you for the pictures! So in your opinion Scotch pine is a no go? I feel like I want some white pine for fast growth but I know how messy they can be and pretty bare but potentially could be good roosting for turkeys?

The scotch pine were awesome for 10 -15 years. My place in NW Wisconsin I don't think there is a faster growing pine. They absolutely did there job faster than any other pine or spruce. The problem is they start loosing their bottom branches similar to a red pine. They also are a much weaker tree. The branches will break off easier than a spruce. My friend that has land by me did his screen out of half scotch and norways. He talked me into using the scotch. His scotch after 30 years in the ground are starting to look bad. His norways are doing great. If you have room to put two rows of scotch and then norways I would recommend them because they are so fast. You could always cut them down after 10 or 15 years if you spruce are big enough to make a good screen and replant something else there. These pics are my scotch screen blocking off my food plot from the road. It looks alright but if you zoom in you can see how the branches toward the bottom are bare. It's difficult but if you go slow driving down the road there are spots that allow cars to see into spots in my food plot.

 

[BuckSutherland]

I know there's been discussion on both but I'm looking for any of your experiences with one vs. the other. All the good, bad, etc... I tried researching but just didn't see much on White Spruce.

I was planning to order Norways from the Iowa DNR, as their pricing blows my local SWCD out of the water. Well, I waited too long and now all they have available is White Spruce. I don't know much about White Spruce and it doesn't seem like it's the favored variety. They're going into a sandy/loamy, slightly rolling field with a south facing exposure. Browsing pressure shouldn't be an issue as I don't have much cover on the property yet.

Had good luck with the Norways I got last year from the SWCD but I also got them at $1 per tree as the sale was over and they were looking to get rid of them. Regular price is almost $3. This is going to be a large planting, (for me anyways), row planting bordering an ag field conversion. I've got about 400 trees/shrubs I'm looking to get in this spring.

There are things to like and dislike about both of those spruce trees.


Norways- They have always seemed like a real pansy trying to make it through their first winter or two for me in NC MN. Your mileage may vary. Small young Norways have been browsed pretty hard for me on several occasions. If you can get them through a couple winters without dying or too much browse they should be good to go. Norways should really take off by years 4-5, especially if you take the time to do fabric mats to smoother out all of their competition. If you let them linger in weeds and grass dont expect much for several years. A couple of my Norways pumped out 30-36" of new growth last year. I think they are 7 years old now. I baby all of my trees. Like others said Norways will retain the bottom branches.

Whites- They are gonna grow much slower. Deer are not going to browse on whites like they will other conifers. I think part of this comes from the stiff prickly needles and they stink. I am not much of a fan for whites. As they age they are prone to loose their bottom branches, especially when they start coming in contact with other trees, or if they start getting shaded out. I would definitely plant a black hills spruce or meyers spruce over a white spruce any day. BHS and meyers will retain their branches all the way to the ground better than anything out there. Deer don't really seem to browse BHS by me, and they never touch a meyers spruce. I wouldnt plant a blue spruce if you paid me just cause of the disease risk. Meyers is a much better version of a blue spruce and BHS is a much better version of a traditional white spruce.


If you are looking at planting some pine trees you might want to look into some Austrian pines. I have been planting mine in NC MN with fantastic survival. All of mine are in cages. Unlike Scotch or red pine the Austrain pine is gonna keep branches all the way to the ground. I have been tucking mine along the road on my property for screening. I notice them planted around town, golf course, cemeteries, etc.... They look like a fantastic screening tree. Growth rate on them is not as fast as white pine on my land, but it keeps pace with Scotch pine.


Might also think about red cedar if you are far away from apple trees.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

The scotch pine were awesome for 10 -15 years. My place in NW Wisconsin I don't think there is a faster growing pine. They absolutely did there job faster than any other pine or spruce. The problem is they start loosing their bottom branches similar to a red pine. They also are a much weaker tree. The branches will break off easier than a spruce. My friend that has land by me did his screen out of half scotch and norways. He talked me into using the scotch. His scotch after 30 years in the ground are starting to look bad. His norways are doing great. If you have room to put two rows of scotch and then norways I would recommend them because they are so fast. You could always cut them down after 10 or 15 years if you spruce are big enough to make a good screen and replant something else there. These pics are my scotch screen blocking off my food plot from the road. It looks alright but if you zoom in you can see how the branches toward the bottom are bare. It's difficult but if you go slow driving down the road there are spots that allow cars to see into spots in my food plot.

Thanks for even more detail! Yes, I am looking for quick growth. In certain parts of this area, I'm not look for 100% screening as I am just structure. It's in the middle of a cornfield and I just need structure height to compliment switch and shrubs.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

There are things to like and dislike about both of those spruce trees.


Norways- They have always seemed like a real pansy trying to make it through their first winter or two for me in NC MN. Your mileage may vary. Small young Norways have been browsed pretty hard for me on several occasions. If you can get them through a couple winters without dying or too much browse they should be good to go. Norways should really take off by years 4-5, especially if you take the time to do fabric mats to smoother out all of their competition. If you let them linger in weeds and grass dont expect much for several years. A couple of my Norways pumped out 30-36" of new growth last year. I think they are 7 years old now. I baby all of my trees. Like others said Norways will retain the bottom branches.

Whites- They are gonna grow much slower. Deer are not going to browse on whites like they will other conifers. I think part of this comes from the stiff prickly needles and they stink. I am not much of a fan for whites. As they age they are prone to loose their bottom branches, especially when they start coming in contact with other trees, or if they start getting shaded out. I would definitely plant a black hills spruce or meyers spruce over a white spruce any day. BHS and meyers will retain their branches all the way to the ground better than anything out there. Deer don't really seem to browse BHS by me, and they never touch a meyers spruce. I wouldnt plant a blue spruce if you paid me just cause of the disease risk. Meyers is a much better version of a blue spruce and BHS is a much better version of a traditional white spruce.


If you are looking at planting some pine trees you might want to look into some Austrian pines. I have been planting mine in NC MN with fantastic survival. All of mine are in cages. Unlike Scotch or red pine the Austrain pine is gonna keep branches all the way to the ground. I have been tucking mine along the road on my property for screening. I notice them planted around town, golf course, cemeteries, etc.... They look like a fantastic screening tree. Growth rate on them is not as fast as white pine on my land, but it keeps pace with Scotch pine.


Might also think about red cedar if you are far away from apple trees.

Buck, you're obviously a guru when it comes to this and I may shoot you a PM at some point if you don't mind. I just ordered my Wolverine spade. I did install a continuous roll of weed barrier on my last planting of bare root. Man that was a pain, I planted everything, and then staked the roll, went down the line and unrolled, cutting slots to slip over the seedlings. Then I staked everything down. Gotta be a better way. I dug all those "holes" for the bare root about a foot in diameter because I just didn't know any better. Now that I've seen the method used with a dibble, maybe that can be done after the fabric is laid?

What's your take on Serbian spruce? Locally are $3.50 for 4-0's. Little pricey. It does say they are more tolerant of limestone soils.

I'd love to find red cedar bare root but can't seem to track any down??? My property is already littered with them that have grown native. MO DNR has them listed but no description as far as size. Any ideas? I've got a bunch of little volunteer seedlings around the pasture I'm going to dig up and transplant.

 

[BuckSutherland]

Buck, you're obviously a guru when it comes to this and I may shoot you a PM at some point if you don't mind. I just ordered my Wolverine spade. I did install a continuous roll of weed barrier on my last planting of bare root. Man that was a pain, I planted everything, and then staked the roll, went down the line and unrolled, cutting slots to slip over the seedlings. Then I staked everything down. Gotta be a better way. I dug all those "holes" for the bare root about a foot in diameter because I just didn't know any better. Now that I've seen the method used with a dibble, maybe that can be done after the fabric is laid?

What's your take on Serbian spruce? Locally are $3.50 for 4-0's. Little pricey. It does say they are more tolerant of limestone soils.

I'd love to find red cedar bare root but can't seem to track any down??? My property is already littered with them that have grown native. MO DNR has them listed but no description as far as size. Any ideas? I've got a bunch of little volunteer seedlings around the pasture I'm going to dig up and transplant.

Feel free to PM. I have never done a continuous roll of fabric on anything. I simply cut 4 feet off a 4x300' roll and deal with one 4x4' piece at a time. Each tree or shrub gets one 4x4 piece of fabric and then some type of mulch. Some of my trees get cages, some get tubes, and some get nothing. Some I will also add fertilizer right away. I use 19-19-19 and keep it a fair amount away from the roots so you don't get it too hot and kill the tree right away. I have heavy sticky mucky clay. You mileage might vary with sandier soil.


I like to plant my tree first. Then I cut a small T into the landscape fabric and slip it over the top of the tree and staple it down and cover it with mulch. The fabric and mulch doesn't have to be done immediately at planting, but I find its easiest when done before the surrounding vegetation takes off. Make the T slit as small as you can get away with and dont let the "mulch" rub up onto the bark of the tree. It can cause rot and kill the tree.






No opinion on Serbian Spruce. I have never planted them. Thought I read they are a narrow spruce. Not gonna get very wide. I know they are zone 4 and not really recommended for me. My woods is tough on zone 4 trees.



I ordered most of my trees from Yellow River Nursery in WI. They are shipping me about 135 trees. Shipping was about $120. I felt I got good sized bareroots for a reasonable price. Inventory there is getting really low.

 

[ruskbucks]

There are things to like and dislike about both of those spruce trees.


Norways- They have always seemed like a real pansy trying to make it through their first winter or two for me in NC MN. Your mileage may vary. Small young Norways have been browsed pretty hard for me on several occasions. If you can get them through a couple winters without dying or too much browse they should be good to go. Norways should really take off by years 4-5, especially if you take the time to do fabric mats to smoother out all of their competition. If you let them linger in weeds and grass dont expect much for several years. A couple of my Norways pumped out 30-36" of new growth last year. I think they are 7 years old now. I baby all of my trees. Like others said Norways will retain the bottom branches.

Whites- They are gonna grow much slower. Deer are not going to browse on whites like they will other conifers. I think part of this comes from the stiff prickly needles and they stink. I am not much of a fan for whites. As they age they are prone to loose their bottom branches, especially when they start coming in contact with other trees, or if they start getting shaded out. I would definitely plant a black hills spruce or meyers spruce over a white spruce any day. BHS and meyers will retain their branches all the way to the ground better than anything out there. Deer don't really seem to browse BHS by me, and they never touch a meyers spruce. I wouldnt plant a blue spruce if you paid me just cause of the disease risk. Meyers is a much better version of a blue spruce and BHS is a much better version of a traditional white spruce.


If you are looking at planting some pine trees you might want to look into some Austrian pines. I have been planting mine in NC MN with fantastic survival. All of mine are in cages. Unlike Scotch or red pine the Austrain pine is gonna keep branches all the way to the ground. I have been tucking mine along the road on my property for screening. I notice them planted around town, golf course, cemeteries, etc.... They look like a fantastic screening tree. Growth rate on them is not as fast as white pine on my land, but it keeps pace with Scotch pine.


Might also think about red cedar if you are far away from apple trees.

I agree with buck on the Austrian pines. The first set of pictures the second Pic is a Austrian pine. It turned out to be a great looking tree.big, wide, full branches to the ground. It almost seemed like it wouldn't let the other trees encroach on it. Only knock I have on them is they were slow growing. I had the same results with my blackhills spruce. Some people have said they get good growth out of them but they were my slowest in SE WI.

 

[rocksnstumps]

Small young Norways have been browsed pretty hard for me on several occasions.

Agree that if you have high deer density and your area has tough winters that Norways can get browsed harder than white spruce. So much so they can get set back enough that the supposed faster growth of Norways over white is not apparent even after 10 yrs.

White spruce that are getting full sun such as an outer row will keep their lower branches just fine even when touching other trees but inner rows with a tight spacing will lose some of those lower branches. Perhaps the black hills spruce does a bit better with partial shade but no experience with those at my place.

All spruce not just the Norways will really kick in the growth around year 4 or 5. At that point my white spruce were adding about 20-24" per year. A rare few even pushed 36" one year.

For reference have planted about 4100 spruce over the years but sadly the first big planting was a severe drought year and lost close to 85%. Replanting efforts in later years were more like 90% successful with 2+1 or 2+2 bareroots.

My current mix is about 1200 white spruce and about 200 Norways almost 20 yrs in. So survival in that first yr or two is crucial to long term success. Rarely does a tree croak after making it past 3 yrs

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

Agree that if you have high deer density and your area has tough winters that Norways can get browsed harder than white spruce. So much so they can get set back enough that the supposed faster growth of Norways over white is not apparent even after 10 yrs.

White spruce that are getting full sun such as an outer row will keep their lower branches just fine even when touching other trees but inner rows with a tight spacing will lose some of those lower branches. Perhaps the black hills spruce does a bit better with partial shade but no experience with those at my place.

All spruce not just the Norways will really kick in the growth around year 4 or 5. At that point my white spruce were adding about 20-24" per year. A rare few even pushed 36" one year.

For reference have planted about 4100 spruce over the years but sadly the first big planting was a severe drought year and lost close to 85%. Replanting efforts in later years were more like 90% successful with 2+1 or 2+2 bareroots.

My current mix is about 1200 white spruce and about 200 Norways almost 20 yrs in. So survival in that first yr or two is crucial to long term success. Rarely does a tree croak after making it past 3 yrs

Do you see a difference in White vs. Norway for birds? Of any kind? Sorry to hear you had such a loss.

 

[rocksnstumps]

As in tweetie birds? Honestly haven't paid much attention. I do value my red pine for turkey roosting spots however.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

As in tweetie birds? Honestly haven't paid much attention. I do value my red pine for turkey roosting spots however.

Roger, that’s what I’m looking for. We have a good Turkey population on the block. I see 30-60 around the corner on neighboring properties almost daily.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rocksnstumps]

Red pine being more open when they get bigger will be much preferred by turkeys over any spruce. They are not nimble flyers by any means so not sure they would even roost in a spruce.

Grouse on the other hand like spruce and fir just fine.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

Red pine being more open when they get bigger will be much preferred by turkeys over any spruce. They are not nimble flyers by any means so not sure they would even roost in a spruce.

Grouse on the other hand like spruce and fir just fine.

Everything around here is white pine. Northern IL. No grouse. Would love to
see pheasant numbers back but probably not with all the eagles now.

 

[Tree Spud]

This is all good to know. Do you try and fertilize right after planting? I planted about 50 last spring and fall and so far I think I only lost two. I didn't do anything but water once a week the first month.

I usually spread some phosphorous around the tree the 1st year. Phosphorous stimulates root growth. Year 2 and on I will use the 10-10-10.