When to frost seed clover?

[Tap]

Everyone seems to say to frost seed in March (in my part of the country).
Is there any reason why clover seed shouldn't be spread now, or anytime after the fall growth period has ended?
It's just a matter of having the time and conditions to spread it. I always seem to wait until March, but why can't I spread seed now?
It's mainly to thicken up well used food plots that get a lot of deer use throughout the winter. Clover, cereal rye, and high sugar perennial ryegrass is there now and getting heavily used. It's normally all mud by spring and I get the creeps that I'm losing topsoil during early spring rain before new growth starts.
My deer eat anything that's green all winter long. Clover and cereal rye are a 12 month food here.

BTW, I'm starting to think that high sugar perennial ryegrass may be a good forage for areas with high deer numbers. The jury has been out on the stuff for a couple of years but they are using it pretty well now, but I really want to see how the stuff holds up in late winter. The history of my plots is that it's eaten to mud by March and becomes an erosion problem. I'm hoping the HS Ryegrass can be a compromise between providing forage and durability to protect soil. In some areas of high DPSM, those highly desirable forages attract too much traffic and the soil suffers.

 

[yoderjac]

In general, there are two techniques that are tied. One is frost seeding and the other is surface broadcasting. Both work but frost seeding tends to have better germination rates. Surface broadcasting is just that. Clover seed is hard and some will last plenty of time for a spring germination regardless of when broadcast but some won't. Frost seeding has higher germination rates and relies on ground heaving caused by the freeze thaw cycle. For actual frost seeding you want to broadcast seed when the nighttime temperatures cause the top layer of ground to freeze and daytime thaws to melt it. This is when the heaving occurs drawing seed into the germination layer for clover.

I'd say the worst time to broadcast clover seed is when there is snow on the ground. This is the time when small birds can easily find the seed and consume it. You can broadcast clover anytime in the winter. Whatever seed survives into that frost seeding period is frost seeded. If you wait beyond that it becomes surface broadcasting. To maximize germination, broadcast seed when nighttime lows are freezing the soil and daytime highs are thawing it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tap]

Thanks Jack. But I know what frost seeding is and how it works. I've done it for years. But I've always waited until March to do it.
I understand the freeze/thaw heaving process which makes frost seeding work.
What I don't quite understand is, and maybe the title of this thread is a little misleading, can I broadcast clover now...on thawed ground (no snow) that, during a normal winter, should most likely go through several freeze-thaw cycles between now and the beginning of the growing season for my area?
My question...can clover be frost seeded TOO early? Are there any adverse issues when broadcasting clover 3 or 4 months (winter months) before it's expected to germinate?

 

[kabic]

Only two negatives that I can think of.

1) more time for critters to find the seed and eat them.

2) an early warm spell starts the seed germination and then it gets cold and kills them.( not really sure if that could happen with clover)

In nature this early seeding happens all the time..

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks Jack. But I know what frost seeding is and how it works. I've done it for years. But I've always waited until March to do it.
I understand the freeze/thaw heaving process which makes frost seeding work.
What I don't quite understand is, and maybe the title of this thread is a little misleading, can I broadcast clover now...on thawed ground (no snow) that, during a normal winter, should most likely go through several freeze-thaw cycles between now and the beginning of the growing season for my area?
My question...can clover be frost seeded TOO early? Are there any adverse issues when broadcasting clover 3 or 4 months (winter months) before it's expected to germinate?

Tap,

Most seed will last till spring since it is hard. It is simply a matter of germination rates. If you are not broadcasting on top of snow, I'm not sure any difference will be that consequential. If you have time is ample now but will be at a premium in the spring, I'd do ti now. You can always overseed in the spring if necessary. There are no big gotyas. Keep track of any differential. Then in future years you can increase rates to compensate if necessary.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tree Spud]

Everyone seems to say to frost seed in March (in my part of the country).
Is there any reason why clover seed shouldn't be spread now, or anytime after the fall growth period has ended?
It's just a matter of having the time and conditions to spread it. I always seem to wait until March, but why can't I spread seed now?
It's mainly to thicken up well used food plots that get a lot of deer use throughout the winter. Clover, cereal rye, and high sugar perennial ryegrass is there now and getting heavily used. It's normally all mud by spring and I get the creeps that I'm losing topsoil during early spring rain before new growth starts.
My deer eat anything that's green all winter long. Clover and cereal rye are a 12 month food here.

BTW, I'm starting to think that high sugar perennial ryegrass may be a good forage for areas with high deer numbers. The jury has been out on the stuff for a couple of years but they are using it pretty well now, but I really want to see how the stuff holds up in late winter. The history of my plots is that it's eaten to mud by March and becomes an erosion problem. I'm hoping the HS Ryegrass can be a compromise between providing forage and durability to protect soil. In some areas of high DPSM, those highly desirable forages attract too much traffic and the soil suffers.

Don't over complicate or look to over plan ...

The first weekend most snow is off the ground, and there is some chance of the top ground thawing a bit ... go spread some clover.

When the top inch of soil starts to thaw, the seed spread will get good soil contact and get sucked into the soil as it refreezes.

I have done it this way for 20 years ... success every year ... or you could over analyze like above .... clover is cheap ... ;)

.

 

[D Hunter]

In my area we get warm wet spells followed by hard cold. I can imagine that some of the clover might sprout and be trying to set up a root system in a warm spell and then get heaved right out of the ground by the freeze and then the cold winter wind drying out the small vulnerable root system. May be better to wait until at least February.

 

[yoderjac]

Keep in mind there are a lot of factors involved including soil as well as weather. While frost seeding as late as possible but while the ground is still freezing and thawing is generally going to give the best results, folks are balancing lots of stuff including time availability. Some folks need to drive a couple hours to a food plots. So, while I'd avoid broadcasting on top of snow if possible, other than that, get it done when you can and keep track of the results. If you find you get significantly lower germination rates broadcasting early (I suspect most won't be significant), then up your seeding rates to compensate in future years. Not that complicated for most.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[wiscwhip]

Honestly, a good tactic for just about anyone, is to broadcast right before a "heavy", late spring snowstorm, especially if you have mostly bare ground or very little snow at the time. 6" of wet spring snow can do wonders for getting you good seed to soil contact. This was the only way we could get any decent results with a spring clover seeing on our sandbox. Of course, it still burned up in July, but in May and June, we actually had patches of clover from a spring seeding.

 

[yoderjac]

Honestly, a good tactic for just about anyone, is to broadcast right before a "heavy", late spring snowstorm, especially if you have mostly bare ground or very little snow at the time. 6" of wet spring snow can do wonders for getting you good seed to soil contact. This was the only way we could get any decent results with a spring clover seeing on our sandbox. Of course, it still burned up in July, but in May and June, we actually had patches of clover from a spring seeding.

That can work, but it effectiveness depends on your location/conditons. Here, we often get a late snow like that followed by very warm temperatures. The fast melting can wash seed off depending on the field, soils, and terrain. Of course, the same can happen with a heavy spring rain if the seed has not been locked into the heaving ground. With slowly melting snow, that can work great. Good addition.

 

[Bigshooter19]

Can you frost seed chicory?

 

[Tap]

Don't over complicate or look to over plan ...

I'm not trying to complicate frost seeding. I've read dozens of threads on several forums on the subject. And I've frost seeded for several years.
I just wondered if what I've always been told, and what I've always done, which is to frost seed in late winter, is the way it has to be done for success.

Her's another question... Can annual clovers be frost seeded (in zone 6)? I've only frost seeded perennial varieties. I'm specifically wondering how well Balansa clover can be frost seeded.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm not trying to complicate frost seeding. I've read dozens of threads on several forums on the subject. And I've frost seeded for several years.
I just wondered if what I've always been told, and what I've always done, which is to frost seed in late winter, is the way it has to be done for success.

Her's another question... Can annual clovers be frost seeded (in zone 6)? I've only frost seeded perennial varieties. I'm specifically wondering how well Balansa clover can be frost seeded.

Tap,

The annual clover I use here most often is Crimson Clover. It does not frost seed well. I did not have good luck frost seeding Balansa here, but I only tried it once. Can't speak to specifics of zone 6 for this. I'm in 7A.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bluecollaroutdoors]

Valid points above about birds getting at the seed, runoff and a possible germination and then freeze out.
I do it late March at the same time the Maple Syrup starts to run. Sap flows in the same conditions with freezing at night and thawing in the daytime.
I have done Ladino, White Dutch and Medium Red. I am going to add some Oats and Winter Rye this year just to test that theory out.

Good luck.

 

[Tap]

FROSTY BERSEEM CLOVER
I just saw this annual on Welter's site which says it can be dormant seeded in November and frost seeded in February.

From the catalog...
FROSTY BERSEEM CLOVER (w/NitroCoatOrganic)........per50lb.bag $138.00

Fast growing annual clover that is excellent for thickening a weak alfalfa stand or producing a 1 year hay crop. Berseem Clover generally requires a frost free growing season, how- ever, Frosty Berseem is much more cold tolerant than other Berseem clovers and has survived temperatures down to 10° F. In the Midwest, Frosty Berseem can be dormant seeded in mid-November, frost seeded in late February, or spring seeded. In the south, it is generally seeded in the fall. Berseem will produce 2-3 crops, can fix up to 100-150 units of nitrogen per acre, and does not cause bloat when grazed. Begin cutting or grazing when the plants reach 10-12 inches high. Berseem needs to be cut prior to flowering or the plant will not recover. Graze or cut to a 3 inch stubble to encourage new shoot production. Berseem is high in feed value; running 18-28% crude protein.

 

[kabic]

The annual clover I use here most often is Crimson Clover. It does not frost seed well.

I frost seeded a mix of clover I got from the NWTF which had crimson clover and it grew. Might be hard to to say if it worked well, but it was 41 % of the mix and I don't remember it looking thin.

 

[mikmaze]

I realize this thread is over a year old, but using the search feature, this was the best place to ask. How do you plan for a berseem plot? you essentialy need to know you have a spot that will have little to no competition the following sprang. I know I could use winter rye as a ride fall/ winter plot and overseed late winter with the berseem. trouble is that is perfect world scenario as the dang weeds I fight would kick just about anythings but if not plowed under in spring, or at the least lightly sprayed, but also would risk killing the new clover. I do have a few plots that are lighter in regards to weed production, but already have them planted in another late season/ perenial plot. seems most years it would get cold enough to kill the berseem, but ya never know. so many choices, so many worth trying, this one just seems a bit extra tricky with enough good points to make it worth trying. any other have experience to share that have risked it.?

 

[mikmaze]

no volunteers to report on status?

 

[Bill]

Never used it Mik so I'm of no help.

 

[yoderjac]

no volunteers to report on status?

I don't use Berseem but I don't believe it can normally be frost seeded. There is a variety they claim can be frost seeded: http://www.grasslandoregon.com/blog/frost-seeding-with-frosty-berseem-clover

I plant perennial clover in the fall with a WR nurse crop because of weed issues. I don't have the same issues with annual clovers. I typically use Crimson and I have used Fixation annual clovers. Crimson acts as a reseeding annual in my area. It does not frost seed well either. I simply spray for weeds and throw and mow annual when I plant them in the spring. They germinate faster than perennial and compete more favorably with weeds. I'm also much less worried about weeds since they are a short-term crop and will usually be replanted in the fall. I like to establish a perennial clover plot as clean as possible since they last so long. Once established I become much more weed tolerant.

Perhaps someone with specific experience with Berseem will respond, but short of that, I'd treat it like other annual clovers.

Thanks,

Jack