What to do with this mature male persimmon...

[IkemanTx]

Alright, I left a persimmon tree in the food plot we put in this spring but it appears to be male. This is the second year it hasn't had fruit on it at least the last 2 years, with good crops on known females in the area. It is quite big. In fact, I can drive the big John Deere tractor right under the bottom limbs it is so big.

With it being male, I really don't want to give up the space or nutrients in a tiny 1/3 acre plot to a tree that doesn't bear fruit. Is it possible to get a tree this size to a state where it can be grafted with a scion? I have seen some pics of apples being "top worked" (I think it was called) from a cut stump. Or, my other idea was to wait until late winter and cut it at the ground, run an exclusion cage around it, and graft to a stump sprout or two the following year.

Here is a pic of the persimmon in the plot for reference.

Is a persimmon this size save-able, or should I just cut it down and plant a wanted variety?


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[144]

Do you have an idea of the diameter of the trunk? Kinda hard to tell from the picture. That would probably help in determining what type of grafting you could use on it.


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[IkemanTx]

Do you have an idea of the diameter of the trunk? Kinda hard to tell from the picture. That would probably help in determining what type of grafting you could use on it.


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Probably 10-12 inches in diameter. I could definitely measure it some time this season and find out.


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[chickenlittle]

If you think you can cut it safely, you could cut it off at 8-10ft and bark graft some female scions onto it. That would keep the new growth up out of your way. Otherwise, I'd go with cutting it off at the ground and choosing a stump sprout to graft.

 

[IkemanTx]

If you think you can cut it safely, you could cut it off at 8-10ft and bark graft some female scions onto it. That would keep the new growth up out of your way. Otherwise, I'd go with cutting it off at the ground and choosing a stump sprout to graft.

Is it safe to assume that a year's worth of growth would be sufficient to graft to? (As far as stump sprouts are concerned?)
I know it would depend upon cutting when the tree was dormant, before bud swelling...
Should I put down some type of ground cover to protect against weed encroachment?
When I get to the second year, how many grafts do I do? Top 2 stump sprouts.... or top 3? I can't see four being an option at all. I would assume the goal is a single successful top per root stock.


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[chickenlittle]

You should have plenty of growth to graft onto in a year. I think the goal would be one tree eventually, especially if you intend to keep mowing around it. I don't think you'll need any weed protection as that root system will push a whole lot of growth. If you stop mowing, you might have suckers popping up far enough away you could make a little grove of persimmons. You probably want to leave as many suckers as you can for a few years as all those leaves will be feeding that big root system. Graft the best after a year and choose the winner after a few more years.

 

[yoderjac]

Alright, I left a persimmon tree in the food plot we put in this spring but it appears to be male. This is the second year it hasn't had fruit on it at least the last 2 years, with good crops on known females in the area. It is quite big. In fact, I can drive the big John Deere tractor right under the bottom limbs it is so big.

With it being male, I really don't want to give up the space or nutrients in a tiny 1/3 acre plot to a tree that doesn't bear fruit. Is it possible to get a tree this size to a state where it can be grafted with a scion? I have seen some pics of apples being "top worked" (I think it was called) from a cut stump. Or, my other idea was to wait until late winter and cut it at the ground, run an exclusion cage around it, and graft to a stump sprout or two the following year.

Here is a pic of the persimmon in the plot for reference.

Is a persimmon this size save-able, or should I just cut it down and plant a wanted variety?


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First, you need to confirm that it male. You need to look for flowers in the spring. That will confirm sex. Persimmons take a long time to fruit. I've seen some female trees that for whatever reason don't produce fruit for many years and then go crazy. With that diameter, It probably is a male, but you really should confirm. It would be a shame to lose a female that larger if it suddenly comes into production.

If it is a male, I would not try to bark graft it. It is much too large. The largest diameter tree I've had success with up to about 5 to 6 inches in diameter but not great success with threes that large. The grafts take just fine, but that large wound typically lets in disease. I find that with large diameter trees, several years later you often get rotting of the stump. The scions will hang one for a few years but they don't seem to grow enough to support that giant root system.

What I would do is cut it down at about waist height or slightly higher. I would then cut the stump at a slight angle to prevent water from pooling. I would then use some kind of pruning sealant and apply it very liberally to the wound. Maybe even apply several coats. The key is ensuring no disease or insects can get in. If you try to bark graft and use heavy sealant, often the sealant will get into the graft and the graft won't take. I'd just focus on sealing it good.

The following spring, the tree will water sprout like mad with that big root system. Pick one nice looking sprouts as your new central leader and keep removing the rest. The idea is to push as much of the stored energy into this sucker as possible. With a tree this large, I may even leave two water sprouts the first year to give it some more leaves to support that root system.

In the second spring, I would graft both of these water sprouts. This is just to double your chances of success. I'd probably use a whip and tongue for this and graft where the diameter of your female scion matches the diameter of your sprouts. I'd let both of these grow the second summer but continue to remove new water sprouts. When they go dormant, I'd pick the strongest one and remove the other one.

A second option is to simply cut down the tree near ground level and seal it again. The root system will sprout new suckers the following spring. You can select one or more of these and graft them. They will continue to support the root system. Like in the method above, cull them down to a single tree over time. With this method, you can keep more than one. You won't have the splitting issue you can get when keeping multiple scions bark grafted to a tree. You will want to pick suckers that are at least a few feet apart. Keep in mind that while they will look like independent trees growing closely together they will be sharing the same root system.

I hope this gives you some ideas to consider.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[IkemanTx]

That is an awesome write up! Thank you for such detailed info. I will wait until it flowers, like you said, before deciding what to do with it.
I appreciate the info!


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[IkemanTx]

Just an update on this thread, my father got gun shy about cutting it down not knowing what he wanted to do with the plot for the 2018/19 season, so we held off on doing anything.

He ended up deciding on tripling the size of the plot to just over an acre for 2019. He put an order in at The Wildlife Group for a trio of pears, trio of persimmons, trio of apples, and the Buck IV package. He put the 3 Fuyu persimmons in line on both sides of this existing male persimmon. The apples and pears ended up further north in the plot.

The chestnuts ended up across the creek about 100 yards away.



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[Native Hunter]

Here is what a female flower looks like. It will be a single flower shaped as shown below:

This is what male flowers look like. They are shaped different, and multiple flowers will appear in groups:

Also, keep an eye out for root sprouts popping up in that fence row. Persimmons put out a lot of them, and you should get some in that fence. Don't whack them off and graft to them later on.

 

[Telemark]

Can you not "frame work" a persimmon tree?