Violi's and Coldstream crabs intel

deepsleep

5 year old buck +
In the spring of 2010 I planted 75 Coldstream Zumis, Midwest, and Siberian. 2011, 10 Violi's Hanging Crab from SLN. I have not seen too much follow-up from other guys that have planted them, so I have been anxiously awaiting first fruit. Unfortunately, a late 26 degree night thinned things considerably, but I was at least able to make fruit size observations. Also, the trees have been pruned to get the first scaffolds above 5 feet, until last year's snow kept us out. Thus, the trees will all need some work this winter. First, the Violi's. The trees from SLN were basically spindly whips when planted.


They have quickly grown into straight and sturdy trees.


They fruited for the first time this year (4th leaf), although very little. The fruit is about the size of a chestnut crab or perhaps slightly larger.


The Coldstream seedlings have also grown vigorously, and with good growth habits for the most part. I had fruit on some Zumi's last year, which were all pea-sized. The Midwest fruited this year, and unfortunately, were also pea-sized



I have started to t-bud many of my Zumi and Midwest seedlings after seeing this. If they don't take, they will be cleft-grafted next spring.

The Siberian that fruited this year (didn't check anything outside my yard) had nice looking fruit, maybe a bit smaller than a golf ball as of 2 weeks ago. Not sure if all of my Siberians will be like this, so I will wait for them all to bear before grafting. The trees are vigorous with good crotch angles. Here's the fruit.



I suspect using these crabs for rootstock will cause some dwarfing of the final tree. Anyone have any input on this? Also, has anyone had Violi's for long enough to observe the drop time?
 
Great looking Violi crabs. I have one 3rd leaf Violi that hasn't fruited yet. Thanks for sharing the info.
 
Nice Pictures Deepsleep, what zone are you in? I'm in 3B/4A and am always interested in hardy varieties. I have never purchased from SLN but I see they have allot of hardy varieties.
 
Those are good looking trees for 4th leaf. I planted 55 Midwest and siberian from cold stream this spring as a hedge row. They were about the size of a pencil so if they grow like yours I will be very happy. Mine are just starting to grow out of a 2.5' tube.
 
If you don't mind - what state are you in? Do you have any cedars anywhere near you? What type of soil? That's a heck of a nice Violi's crab. I may have to try a couple!
 
Upon further review, I realized my second picture is actually a Centennial from Wallace Woodstock on M7 planted the same week. The fruit on the branch picture is the Violi. The Violi's on standard are starting to blast by the M7s as can be seen in this photo. The one on the far left is the Centennial in the photo, the next 4 to the right are Violi's. So, the Violi's are actually larger trees than the picture gave them credit for.



Greyphase--after looking at your Winter Wildlife crab photos, and reading your posts, it sounds like 4th leaf to start bearing, 6th to produce significant fruit for WW and Violi's. It will be interesting to see how they do as far as drop times, fruit load, etc. This is the first year I've sprayed, and other than a few CAR spots, they have been very clean.

Freeborn and BnB--My farm is in Southern MI, technically 5A/B. We had a low of -22 this past year, and snow over the 5 foot cages for a large part of the winter, which of course was the worst winter of my lifetime. I happen to live in FL, so it wasn't a big deal here. We do have cedars, and my usual suspects get CAR yearly, Goldrush is one that comes to mind. It doesn't seem to have affected the growth of any of my trees, however.

Stu--I have read that crabs tend to be natural dwarfs to some extent, so I am wondering how these budded trees will end up. I suspect they will be smaller than trees on B118 or Ant, but hopefully the deer don't mind!

chummer--Thanks, I think they have done well so far. The credit goes to the apple guys around here who have made the mistakes and come up with ways to make it work. The key is getting doing it right from the start. We had a heck of a work week in 2011 where we planted/lumited/caged 150+ grafted and non-grafted trees. We also put in another 4 or 500 shrubs with mesh tubes. My wife is still requesting payback for that week! In 2010 Coldstream was out of larger stock, so we planted 50 that were the size of a matchstick. Hard to believe but many are over 10 feet tall and starting to bear. My "crew" thought I was nuts planting them. Over the next few years, the work should really start to pay off, with exponential increases in soft mast.
 
Thanks for the reply Stu. The problem is, the Siberians have pretty desirable fruit on them, so I plant to let them carry on. It is the Zumi and Midwest that have the tiny crabs, so those are the ones that will be grafted. Just looking at the growth the first few years, the Siberians do seem to be more vigorous, so I suspect they may be closer to full size than the others. Part of the fun is the suspense!
 
Just a heads up on those Malus Baccata "midwest" they can have incompatability issues when used as a rootstock with some varieties. Let me know if you find a list that shows those varieties, I have looked and cannot find one. I have a handful that I am experimenting with. Seems that a large knot has formed at the graft union on some of them.
 
Interesting on the graft incompatibility issue. I t-budded 9 or 10 of them a couple weeks ago and will see how they turn out. I know for sure I did at least one Liberty, one Siberian, and 3 of a large fruited crab I found in the swamp on my other property. It will be interesting to compare how they do vs the NW Greening, Ark. Black, etc. that I grafted to the others. If nothing else, this gives me a good excuse if my t-buds fail.
 
Ok you got me freaked out bro! I planted 8 Sweet Crabs from Coldstream (i am in Ludington MI) I sure better now have pea size fruiting like a stupid lollypop flowering crab or something. They are advertised as 1-1/2 fruit for sweet crabs.

Your other trees are awesome!
 
I am about 90% sure I have a sweet crab on my place that was there when I bought it. It is called sweet crab because the fruit smells sweet. It is not good to eat (tart, tannic, bitter) at all, but the critters love it. The fruit is about the size of a ping pong ball or slightly larger and green in color. It drops fruit in Aug/Sept. I will post a picture when I get the chance. It is Zumi and Midwest from Coldstream that has tiny fruit.
 
I am about 90% sure I have a sweet crab on my place that was there when I bought it. It is called sweet crab because the fruit smells sweet. It is not good to eat (tart, tannic, bitter) at all, but the critters love it. The fruit is about the size of a ping pong ball or slightly larger and green in color. It drops fruit in Aug/Sept. I will post a picture when I get the chance. It is Zumi and Midwest from Coldstream that has tiny fruit.

Did you plant Zumi/Midwest knowing they'd produce that small of fruit? You might be a bird hunter too which is another reason for asking. I'm on a ridge above a river/creek bottom so i'm not worried about bird habitat on my particular piece of property.

Can't wait to see your sweet crab if you can find it, hopefully it has fruit so I can see the real deal. :)
 
Two things - I thought Siberians had small, pea-sized to 1/2" fruit. The pix are golf ball size. Is golf ball size typical? AND - does anyone else have Violi's hanging crab and what size fruit have you gotten on them? Are they all the size of Deepsleep's?
 
Midwest produce tiny fruit, as far as I have ever seen.
 
I didn't know exactly what to expect, although I know crabapples can vary in size (especially with seedlings). Also, there are different strains of Siberian crabs, some are tiny, some are larger. I figure the Siberians I have (assuming they all have fruit the size of the one in my yard) will be as small as I need (for turkeys). I'm not really in a good area for bird hunting, but I will keep a few of the small fruited crabs for non-game birds. The following is a wild tree which was there when I bought the place. After studying the leaves/fruit, I believe it to be Malus coronaria, aka American Crab, aka Sweet Crab. Here it is blooming Spring '13, followed by a picture in June. It gets CAR pretty heavily by the end of summer, but doesn't seem to bother the tree at all. Final fruit size is maybe 1.25-1.5". Fruit goes from green to greenish-yellow. The deer vacuum them up.



 
Wow that sweet crab is an awesome looking tree, can't wait for that to happen at my place!
 
I didn't know exactly what to expect, although I know crabapples can vary in size (especially with seedlings). Also, there are different strains of Siberian crabs, some are tiny, some are larger. I figure the Siberians I have (assuming they all have fruit the size of the one in my yard) will be as small as I need (for turkeys).

I just got word they are my local coop is working with a nursery to get some siberian crabs for 2016 spring pickup. I'd like to use this over prairie crab for a cheap fun grafting option. Any idea how to know what 'strain' is rated to get larger?
 
Those are good looking trees for 4th leaf. I planted 55 Midwest and siberian from cold stream this spring as a hedge row. They were about the size of a pencil so if they grow like yours I will be very happy. Mine are just starting to grow out of a 2.5' tube.
Chummer - what's the plan for caging the trees planted on the hedgerow now that they are out of the tubes? There's no escaping the expense of caging, right?
 
Siberian crabs grow into large trees...30'+ on good soil. Native prairie crab (malus ioensis) is a much smaller tree

Ok, he just mentioned strains, i didn't know if he meant caliper size or height, and how to differentiate 'strains' of siberian crab. but I think i'm gonna do this.
 
I'd guess by strains he means large fruited and small fruited Siberians. "Siberian" crab seems to be a generic term to many nurseries. They may be true Siberian (baccata), a mix (baccata x ranetka), Ranetka, or any other mix including baccata or ranetka somewhere along the lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malus_baccata

Yes, "strains" may not be the correct terminology, but I am referring to the fact that there is great genetic variation amongst seedlings referred to as "Siberians". I have some with golfball-sized fruit, others with pea-sized fruit. Even bark color ranges from really dark to almost a greenish yellow.

As far as tubing goes, I believe you can get away with skinny cages (1 foot diameter), as either you or the deer will be pruning the lower branches either way eventually. Narrow cages need to be a minimum of 5' tall. I think you can probably use tubes as well. I currently have some B118s in tubes that I plan to graft next spring.

Be cognizant that when using crabs as rootstock, there may be compatability issues as mentioned above. Planting a bunch of Dolgo or Ant seedlings may be the safest route as there won't be questions about compatability if your are planning to topwork or t-bud later.
 
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