Violi's and Coldstream crabs intel

incompatibility, oh great! I hate learning new stuff sometimes!
 
SO by this report only crabapples should be grafted to a Baccata RS?
 
That was going to be my question, if baccata has compatibility issues with some scion varieties, why use them at all? With B118, P18, and especially Antonovka for cold hardy rootstock choices, why bother with baccata at all?
 
That was going to be my question, if baccata has compatibility issues with some scion varieties, why use them at all? With B118, P18, and especially Antonovka for cold hardy rootstock choices, why bother with baccata at all?

Well for my question Baccata is THAT much cheaper that it makes sense. I can get 100 of them for $76, or I just paid $89 for 25 Ranetka, and i'll be paying close to $70 for 25 B118.
 
That makes sense I guess, as long as you aren't rolling the dice on what can be grafted to them.
 
No, that was pure speculation on my part. I can't tell you which varieties are incompatible with baccata.
No thats what I've gathered after reading the report.

Malus baccata -reported to be the hardiest apple available, has been widely used in Alaska. A problem of delayed graft incompatibility exists with some apple cultivars. Apple cultivars, usually crabapples, with M. baccata are successfully grafted onto this rootstock. Many of the hardy Canadian apple cultivars also contain M. baccata genes (Lawyer).
 
well i'm gonna dig on that this afternoon and post what I find and maybe we can compare cuz I don't want to go into it KNOWING i'm gonna fail, lol.
 
It appears that grafting an interstem to the rootstock and then to the scion might work with baccata. Have any of you "grafting gurus" gone so far over the edge as to graft a rootstock to a graft(interstem) and then to the scion?
 
Whats your thoughts on this chart?

baccata_zpshtganzv7.png


Found here. http://www.botany.wisc.edu/courses/botany_940/06CropEvol/papers/Harris%2602.pdf

By this thought all the yellow options would be compatible?
 
Yes, "strains" may not be the correct terminology, but I am referring to the fact that there is great genetic variation amongst seedlings referred to as "Siberians". I have some with golfball-sized fruit, others with pea-sized fruit. Even bark color ranges from really dark to almost a greenish yellow.

As far as tubing goes, I believe you can get away with skinny cages (1 foot diameter), as either you or the deer will be pruning the lower branches either way eventually. Narrow cages need to be a minimum of 5' tall. I think you can probably use tubes as well. I currently have some B118s in tubes that I plan to graft next spring.

Be cognizant that when using crabs as rootstock, there may be compatability issues as mentioned above. Planting a bunch of Dolgo or Ant seedlings may be the safest route as there won't be questions about compatability if your are planning to topwork or t-bud later.

I have some manschuria flowering crabs that I planted over 25 years ago. I believe that is baccatta.
I used 3 foot diameter cages on these and left them in place for many years. Some are multi stemmed, some are single trunks with many short branches that were inside the cage.
For deer purposes, I wonder if a bush type tree or those short branches are an advantage instead of a straight bare trunk. Protection form rubbing and from sunscauld.
 
I have not.

Well then, as crazy as all this tree splicing seems, I still consider you semi-sane in any case.;):D
 
You'll have to do some legwork to compile a list of baccata compatibility. Talk to Lawyer's for their recommendations, get in touch with horticulture researchers at Alaska-Fairbanks, Quebec, Manitoba, Alberta. See if Canadian or Alaskan nurseries sell trees on baccata and what varieties.

Interstems do not make sense if the goal is to save a dollar on a rootstock...unless if you put no monetary value on your time. It takes you another year get your tree. They serve a functional purpose like better roots for a given soil while still having size control. It is for a combination you cannot get from a single rootstock.
 
Yeah, but I'm convinced many of you are just about insane enough to try it for fun!:eek:;)
 
I fully intend to do some interstems in the next few years. In particular, I am going to play with rootstocks that are not readily available. I got Novole from GRIN that I will propagate by cuttings and stooling. It is slow to bear so I'll try some semi-dwarf and dwarf interstems on it.
 
I have some manschuria flowering crabs that I planted over 25 years ago. I believe that is baccatta.
I used 3 foot diameter cages on these and left them in place for many years. Some are multi stemmed, some are single trunks with many short branches that were inside the cage.
For deer purposes, I wonder if a bush type tree or those short branches are an advantage instead of a straight bare trunk. Protection form rubbing and from sunscauld.
I am letting a few of my trees go multi stem. When I look around at my old native trees almost all of them are multi stem. That must of had something to do with their survival. I also think they are neat looking trees, especially when they have apples.
 
I have some manschuria flowering crabs that I planted over 25 years ago. I believe that is baccatta.
I used 3 foot diameter cages on these and left them in place for many years. Some are multi stemmed, some are single trunks with many short branches that were inside the cage.
For deer purposes, I wonder if a bush type tree or those short branches are an advantage instead of a straight bare trunk. Protection form rubbing and from sunscauld.

In my case, a multi-trunk tree would be turned into mulch over a few years by juvenile bucks. The only multi-trunk trees I have are 50+ year old wild trees that survived when the deer density was much lower in my area. That being said, I do think you bring up some valid points for wildlife trees. The bush type trees, in addition to your listed advantages probably make for better cover for a variety of wildlife as well.

As for the incompatibility issue, my plan is to re-graft any that develop incompatibility. As a last resort, I would just let the rootstock grow back into a tree. There are worse things than tiny crabapples for wildlife trees. If I had known about it several years ago, I might have planted different seedling trees, but overall it makes very little difference in my overall plan. Most of my seedling trees are in out of the way places, such as food plots in the woods. If I can't turn them into known varieties, they will still feed a lot of critters. I have well over 100 grafted trees on M7/M111/B118/Ant. in my yard and throughout the property that are coming into bearing. They are starting to provide plenty of "known" apples for the deer. If I'm perfectly honest with myself, I am topworking my seedling trees over mainly for entertainment. It is absolutely fascinating. That being said, if I were to plant out my place again, I would buy a few nursery trees to get early fruit and plant the rest out with either B118 or M111 and Ant. and/or Dolgo rootstock, with something like 20/80 with the 80 being Ant/Dolgo. I would graft those over to DR scions obtained from GRIN or members here as well as some locally scavenged scions. As time goes on, I am becoming more and more a fan of standards, especially as many of us are finding that some of the crabs (which are generally more precocious) are bearing in the 3-6 year mark on Ant. Those will be trees your great great grandkids can marvel over. e.g. "What the heck is this Airport Apple? Never heard of it"
 
In my case, a multi-trunk tree would be turned into mulch over a few years by juvenile bucks. The only multi-trunk trees I have are 50+ year old wild trees that survived when the deer density was much lower in my area. That being said, I do think you bring up some valid points for wildlife trees. The bush type trees, in addition to your listed advantages probably make for better cover for a variety of wildlife as well.

As for the incompatibility issue, my plan is to re-graft any that develop incompatibility. As a last resort, I would just let the rootstock grow back into a tree. There are worse things than tiny crabapples for wildlife trees. If I had known about it several years ago, I might have planted different seedling trees, but overall it makes very little difference in my overall plan. Most of my seedling trees are in out of the way places, such as food plots in the woods. If I can't turn them into known varieties, they will still feed a lot of critters. I have well over 100 grafted trees on M7/M111/B118/Ant. in my yard and throughout the property that are coming into bearing. They are starting to provide plenty of "known" apples for the deer. If I'm perfectly honest with myself, I am topworking my seedling trees over mainly for entertainment. It is absolutely fascinating. That being said, if I were to plant out my place again, I would buy a few nursery trees to get early fruit and plant the rest out with either B118 or M111 and Ant. and/or Dolgo rootstock, with something like 20/80 with the 80 being Ant/Dolgo. I would graft those over to DR scions obtained from GRIN or members here as well as some locally scavenged scions. As time goes on, I am becoming more and more a fan of standards, especially as many of us are finding that some of the crabs (which are generally more precocious) are bearing in the 3-6 year mark on Ant. Those will be trees your great great grandkids can marvel over. e.g. "What the heck is this Airport Apple? Never heard of it"
I left the 3 foot diameter cage in place for about 20 years. We have low deer numbers, but only growth outside of the cage was bothered.
 
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