The Year of the Oaks

[Native Hunter]

Overcup Oak - Quercus lyrata
Now we are going to cover Overcup Oak like the big one pictured above. Here is some information on it:

· This oak typically grows in areas that are heavily flooded in winter and early spring. It can grow well in other less wet areas, but taller oaks or other tall species can possibly shade it out. However, in these wet areas, no other oak and few other trees can compete with it.

· Due to the above, this oak doesn't leaf out until a month later than other oaks. This is nature’s way of giving the spring waters time to go down before the tree comes out of winter dormancy.

· This is not one of the top oaks for deer, but it is a good one and has its place. I’m glad to have a few of them but probably have a few more than I want. I would prefer more Swamp Whites and Swamp Chestnuts rather than Overcup.

· The acorn is very unusual. First of all, the acorn has a spongy buoyant cup that covers nearly the entire nut. This too plays well to the location the tree is usually found. The flood waters carry the floating acorns to many locations so that the tree can spread.

· Overcup acorns are some of the first to fall. They are not preferred by deer because their tannin levels are more like red oaks. Deer will eat them early on but move to other white oaks when they start dropping.

· However, Overcup acorns don’t sprout in the fall like other white oak family acorns. They wait until spring. Late in the year, deer may move back to them when the more preferred acorns are gone. The acorns won’t rot over winter like other white oaks.

· The species has a tendency to keep lower limbs for a long time – similar to how Pin Oak does. However, the branches don’t droop down like Pin Oak.

· Overcup Oak wants to to spread out more than any other oak I planted. When it can find room, it will get wide quickly. When crowded, it will grow more vertically.

· I’m not sure how the Overcups are doing on acorn production. I will try to watch closer this fall.

· The tree is best identified by its leaves – See link below:

· For other information that I have not covered above, I am including a link to the USDA data below:

OVERCUP OAK (usda.gov)

I have several of these Overcups, and many of them have already carved out their spot on my land. No other oak has grown as big, except that some crowed red oaks have grown a little taller, and a few of the bigger Swamp Chestnut Oaks are about the same height. Overcup was not in my tree order. Someone at the nursery (either accidentally or on purpose) put in a bundle of Overcups that was supposed to be White Oaks (Q Alba). I only noticed this in a few years after planting when I saw the trees leaf out a month later than Q Alba.

This is not a great picture of the leaves, but you can see the link above from USDA for a better picture.



Note the lower limbs on this one still holding tight:



This picture shows one of the bigger trees but not the largest.



That’s about it guys for Overcup Oak. Let me know if you have any questions. In a few days we will move on to another Oak. I’m probably going to do Swamp White Oak - Quercus bicolor next but may change my mind.

 

[Lucky_P]

Overcup makes a great yard tree - will need limbing up early on, but really spreads out wide... probably my second pick, behind bur oak, for an oak in the yard.
I have two SWOxOvercup hybrid selections that have been given to me over the years - one from Osage City KS, the other from Columbia MO. Have them grafted on SWO understock. Leaves are sort of intermediate, but most resemble the SWO parent. Acorns look like a small overcup acorn, almost completely enclosed in cap, born in twos on a long peduncle, like SWO... and the acorn 'shell' is not as 'corky' as overcup, so I doubt they'd float like overcup. They do germinate late, like overcup.

One thing about grafting oaks - the white oak group is pretty compatible, across the board, so if you had low, swampy places that only overcup would grow on, you could come back and topwork overcup seedlings to a more desirable acorn-producing species, like bur, SWO, white, etc.

 

[Native Hunter]

Overcup makes a great yard tree - will need limbing up early on, but really spreads out wide... probably my second pick, behind bur oak, for an oak in the yard.
I have two SWOxOvercup hybrid selections that have been given to me over the years - one from Osage City KS, the other from Columbia MO. Have them grafted on SWO understock. Leaves are sort of intermediate, but most resemble the SWO parent. Acorns look like a small overcup acorn, almost completely enclosed in cap, born in twos on a long peduncle, like SWO... and the acorn 'shell' is not as 'corky' as overcup, so I doubt they'd float like overcup. They do germinate late, like overcup.

One thing about grafting oaks - the white oak group is pretty compatible, across the board, so if you had low, swampy places that only overcup would grow on, you could come back and topwork overcup seedlings to a more desirable acorn-producing species, like bur, SWO, white, etc.

I'm considering grafting a Sawtooth that I really like to some Sawtooth seedlings at some point in the future. Any advice?

 

[Lucky_P]

Bark graft with dormant scions as rootstock is beginning to unfurl leaves. Should get success rates approaching apple & pear.

 

[Mozark]

Bark graft with dormant scions as rootstock is beginning to unfurl leaves. Should get success rates approaching apple & pear.

Is the "sap stopper" modification important at that stage? (leaves unfurling)

 

[Lucky_P]

I've never encountered an issue with oaks bleeding, so have not needed to use the 'sapstopper' modification, like I would for pecan/hickory/walnut.

 

[blueKYstream]

Great idea for a thread! Do deer typically come back to hit those overcup acorns again later in the season when the white oaks are depleted I imagine? Those late dropping sawtooths you speak of have me intrigued. I need to look for a source for next year's planting!

 

[Native Hunter]

Great idea for a thread! Do deer typically come back to hit those overcup acorns again later in the season when the white oaks are depleted I imagine? Those late dropping sawtooths you speak of have me intrigued. I need to look for a source for next year's planting!

I haven’t been watching the Overcups closely up to this point but others have said that they do come back and hit them later when the other acorns are gone.

 

[Native Hunter]

Concerning the discussion above in Post #28 - that could make Overcup a very valuable commodity in years that red oak acorns are scarce. Having a white oak family acorn that lasted until spring could prove to be valuable.

 

[Native Hunter]

Swamp White Oak - Quercus bicolor

Swamp White Oak is a very desirable addition to my planting.

Facts about this oak:

- A member of the white oak family.

- This is another white oak with highly prized whitetail acorns with low tannin. Like the Swamp Chestnut Oak, some reports say that humans can eat them without leaching.

- This is another bottomland species but growing well on my damp upland site. They are about the same size as the previous two oaks discussed. I estimate the largest ones are 30 feet tall after 15-17 years.

- Young trees will have a pyramidal shape, but they will become more rounded with age.

- I’ve discovered recently that I have a lot more of this species than I first thought. That makes me extremely happy.

There are four ways I have found to help identify these oaks.

- First way – many of them will exhibit marcescence (holding leaves until the following spring). This is especially true of younger trees.

- Second way – The bark has some unusual peeling. Some other oaks will have peeling bark, but it is unlike SWO. See the pictures later on in this post.

- Third Way – The leaves are somewhat like regular white oak but wider with shallower sinuses. The name “Bicolor” comes from the fact that the underside of the leaves are extremely light colored – almost white. This is more obvious on sun leaves than shade leaves. Other oaks can have leaves that are lighter on the underside but usually not to the degree of SWO. This trait will be very obvious when the wind is blowing hard and turning the leaves.

- Fourth Way - The long peduncle (stalk) on the acorns is a distinguishing characteristic of this species. They can be from ½ up to 4 inches long. Other oaks have shorter peduncles.

I know that I have been getting acorns, because I’ve found some young seedlings nearby some of the mature trees.

Here is the USDA link that will be helpful:

SWAMP WHITE OAK (usda.gov)

This is a good picture of the bark. At first it was hard for me to differentiate it from the other two oaks already covered, but I’m getting better at it now.



This is a good picture of the unique peeling bark on the limbs.



Here is some of the unique peeling bark on the trunk of a smaller tree.



Here are some of the leaves.







This is a picture of one at the edge of the planting. It is about average size.



This is one at the edge of the planting that’s above average size. It’s getting good sunlight right now, but you will notice the white pine starting to crowd it on the left side of the picture. Both are great trees, and I would hate to cut the pine. However, if I identify this oak as a prolific acorn producer, I might just do it.



Here is another one. This one is small and was being choked out by some junk trees, but I have released it now. This tree exhibits the pyramidal shape of younger trees.



I really love the pictures at this link. It especially illustrates the bicolor leaves.

Quercus bicolor | Landscape Plants | Oregon State University

landscapeplants.oregonstate.edu

That’s about it guys for Swamp White Oak. Let me know if you have any questions. In a few days we will move on to another Oak.

I will end with a cool picture. This is a pine tree in a yard across the highway from my tree planting. The pesky squirrels have been robbing my acorns and planting them under the pine.

 

[Wild Thing]

I'll be following along Native Hunter. It is absolutely amazing to me that you have been able to grow your oaks so large in so little time. I have been planting oaks here in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (Zone 4b) for as long as you have down south, but our shorter growing season certainly makes a difference.

We named our property/camp "Lone Oak" for good reason. There was only a single Red Oak on the entire 160 acres when we purchased it. I have been trying to reintroduce oaks over the years but with a fairly high deer density and no other oaks in the area it has been a challenge. I have stuck with it but they are definitely a high maintenance endeavor here.

Our sign...





I have planted some seedling trees over the years but the majority have been started from acorns...





It is a long, winding road...but we are starting to see some acorns on trees we have planted.



I start them in tubes...



and then cage them for a few years when they come out of the tubes.



Your description of the Swamp White Oak has piqued my interest. I knew I had planted some years ago but couldn't remember which were which. I believe these that I planted along the driveway may be SWO. Will take some current pics and post them for you to see if you can confirm.



Looking forward to following along with you.

 

[Lucky_P]

25+ yrs ago, I got hooked up with Northern Nut Growers Assn., International Oak Society, and NAFEx folks who were exploring for and selecting low-tannin oaks for human and livestock feed purposes(wildlife would also benefit). The late Don Cobb, who was the NNGA Edible Oaks chairman, sent me scions and acorns from several of his best selection - and the best of the bunch were three Swamp White Oak selections, out of a Cornell University planting.
I'm not convinced that genetics is the total story for low tannin levels... f'r'instance: I've had the opportunity to sample acorns from the ortet of Don's top pick, 'Cobb Sweetie #2'... in 2001, they were totally non-bitter... tasted like a bland chestnut; but in 2002, they had some astringency, not unlike any other SWO I sampled that year.

But... deer and goats have proline-rich salivary proteins which allow them to eat high-tannin acorns, in large quantities, without any issues, whereas cattle often experience severe kidney damage in heavy white oak mast years, if they have unlimited access to acorn.

SWO is native to parts of KY, but not here; but I've planted a number on the farm, and I have some SWO hybrids in my collection... Schuettes(SWOxBur) and Q.x humidicola (SWOxOvercup). Schuettes typically bears a heavy crop of sweet acorns, almost every year, same for the overcup hybrid, but the weevils really like it.

 

[Native Hunter]

I'll be following along Native Hunter. It is absolutely amazing to me that you have been able to grow your oaks so large in so little time. I have been planting oaks here in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (Zone 4b) for as long as you have down south, but our shorter growing season certainly makes a difference.

We named our property/camp "Lone Oak" for good reason. There was only a single Red Oak on the entire 160 acres when we purchased it. I have been trying to reintroduce oaks over the years but with a fairly high deer density and no other oaks in the area it has been a challenge. I have stuck with it but they are definitely a high maintenance endeavor here.

Our sign...

View attachment 34124

View attachment 34125

I have planted some seedling trees over the years but the majority have been started from acorns...

View attachment 34126

View attachment 34127

It is a long, winding road...but we are starting to see some acorns on trees we have planted.

View attachment 34128

I start them in tubes...

View attachment 34129

and then cage them for a few years when they come out of the tubes.

View attachment 34130

Your description of the Swamp White Oak has piqued my interest. I knew I had planted some years ago but couldn't remember which were which. I believe these that I planted along the driveway may be SWO. Will take some current pics and post them for you to see if you can confirm.

View attachment 34131

Looking forward to following along with you.

That’s awesome man. I love what you are doing and your pictures are very nice. When the leaves come out we can compare some pictures.

 

[Native Hunter]

25+ yrs ago, I got hooked up with Northern Nut Growers Assn., International Oak Society, and NAFEx folks who were exploring for and selecting low-tannin oaks for human and livestock feed purposes(wildlife would also benefit). The late Don Cobb, who was the NNGA Edible Oaks chairman, sent me scions and acorns from several of his best selection - and the best of the bunch were three Swamp White Oak selections, out of a Cornell University planting.
I'm not convinced that genetics is the total story for low tannin levels... f'r'instance: I've had the opportunity to sample acorns from the ortet of Don's top pick, 'Cobb Sweetie #2'... in 2001, they were totally non-bitter... tasted like a bland chestnut; but in 2002, they had some astringency, not unlike any other SWO I sampled that year.

But... deer and goats have proline-rich salivary proteins which allow them to eat high-tannin acorns, in large quantities, without any issues, whereas cattle often experience severe kidney damage in heavy white oak mast years, if they have unlimited access to acorn.

SWO is native to parts of KY, but not here; but I've planted a number on the farm, and I have some SWO hybrids in my collection... Schuettes(SWOxBur) and Q.x humidicola (SWOxOvercup). Schuettes typically bears a heavy crop of sweet acorns, almost every year, same for the overcup hybrid, but the weevils really like it.

Thanks for sharing that information. I have come across some trees that I think could be hybrids. I’ve marked them and will be looking closer when the leaves come out.

 

[Native Hunter]

25+ yrs ago, I got hooked up with Northern Nut Growers Assn., International Oak Society, and NAFEx folks who were exploring for and selecting low-tannin oaks for human and livestock feed purposes(wildlife would also benefit). The late Don Cobb, who was the NNGA Edible Oaks chairman, sent me scions and acorns from several of his best selection - and the best of the bunch were three Swamp White Oak selections, out of a Cornell University planting.
I'm not convinced that genetics is the total story for low tannin levels... f'r'instance: I've had the opportunity to sample acorns from the ortet of Don's top pick, 'Cobb Sweetie #2'... in 2001, they were totally non-bitter... tasted like a bland chestnut; but in 2002, they had some astringency, not unlike any other SWO I sampled that year.

But... deer and goats have proline-rich salivary proteins which allow them to eat high-tannin acorns, in large quantities, without any issues, whereas cattle often experience severe kidney damage in heavy white oak mast years, if they have unlimited access to acorn.

SWO is native to parts of KY, but not here; but I've planted a number on the farm, and I have some SWO hybrids in my collection... Schuettes(SWOxBur) and Q.x humidicola (SWOxOvercup). Schuettes typically bears a heavy crop of sweet acorns, almost every year, same for the overcup hybrid, but the weevils really like it.

Before long I’m going to need some reference materials and pictures when I start trying to identify hybrids. Do you know if any Intrrnet sources? Or a good book I could buy?

 

[Wild Thing]

Here are some pics of what I believe are some Swamp White Oaks, based upon your description above Native Hunter. I planted these from seedling trees which I purchased from our local conservation district maybe 10-12 years ago? I had forgotten what they were but now believe they are SWO.

Some of them keep their leaves all winter but 2 of them drop their leaves in the fall. They have done this every year that I can recall.



They definitely have the peeling bark appearance described above...





and also the distinct color variation between the upper and lower sides of the leaves.



They have just begun dropping their leaves in the past day or so (April 10th up here in Zone 4B)



I have planted some other Swamp White Oaks in a couple of lower areas but those trees are just beginning to come out of the tops of the tubes.

 

[Native Hunter]

Here are some pics of what I believe are some Swamp White Oaks, based upon your description above Native Hunter. I planted these from seedling trees which I purchased from our local conservation district maybe 10-12 years ago? I had forgotten what they were but now believe they are SWO.

Some of them keep their leaves all winter but 2 of them drop their leaves in the fall. They have done this every year that I can recall.

View attachment 34226

They definitely have the peeling bark appearance described above...

View attachment 34227

View attachment 34228

and also the distinct color variation between the upper and lower sides of the leaves.

View attachment 34229

They have just begun dropping their leaves in the past day or so (April 10th up here in Zone 4B)

View attachment 34230

I have planted some other Swamp White Oaks in a couple of lower areas but those trees are just beginning to come out of the tops of the tubes.

View attachment 34231

Yes indeed. Those look like swamp white oaks to me.

 

[Native Hunter]

Bur Oak - Quercus macrocarpa

Even though I didn’t order any Bur Oaks I ended up getting a few mixed in with the trees I bought. I’m really happy about this, since they are a great tree. I have only found about 15 – 20 of these in the planting, and they are doing just fine.

Facts about this oak:

· Habitats include moist bottomland, uplands, and it can be common in savannas.

· Bur Oak is most commonly found in bottomlands just a little outside of the flood zone.

· The tree is extremely easy to identify. See my notes below about the corky bark and unique leaves.

· This tree has the largest acorns of any oaks. They also have an unmistakable appearance because of the unusual fringe along the rim of their cups.

· Bur Oak is a member of the White Oak group, which means that its acorns mature in a single year.

· It can hybridize with other White Oaks.

Here is a USDA link on Bur Oak
Quercus macrocarpa (usda.gov)

Picture of Bur Oak Leaves and trunk close to ground



Picture of new leaves emerging on 4/10/21



Picture of the corky bark. This makes Bur Oak very easy to identify:



This is a nice sized one out in the middle of the planting in ground that is more hydric than average.



This is one at the edge of the planting next to the white pine road screen. This tree has kept up with the white pines. They were planted at the same time.



I don’t want to get you Oak Junkies too excited yet, but I will mention that I think I have found a Bur Oak Hybrid. I need to wait until the new leaves come out and do more research. I will report back later on this. Don’t lose any sleep, because I could be wrong…….

The Oak that we will go to next time is the Chinkapin Oak. Take care until we meet again...

 

[GoldenTriangleIL]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Post Oak? I'm at the far northern end of its range and I have some seedlings available to me. I have no personal experience with them and but have seen a couple studies where they were found to under produce mast compared to other members of the white oak family. They also grow slowly. My farm grows white, bur, and swamp white quite well so I am not limited with respect to rainfall or soil productivity.

 

[rocksnstumps]

Interesting how the burrs have kept up with the white pine by you. Burrs grow slow by me and not even close to a white pine after they get past the sleep, creep, creep, leap phase (threw in an extra creep in there based on what I see). On the other hand will say that N red oak does a good job of being a fast grower, over 2x almost approaching 3x a burr here. Just an observation here. The burrs did start producing acorns at a much younger age so maybe that slows tree growth some dunno