The Woods ... mistakes I'v made

[OakSeeds]

Tree Daddy and Teeder ... thanks mucho for your kind words; however, I am only one of LOTS of folks posting on this site who are very generous with their knowledge and resources.
I assure you I have made plenty of mistakes and engaged in habitat practices that were not optimal for the goals I had in mine. Experience is a wonderful teacher ... sometimes a little harsh but still a great teacher. The key is to learn from your own and others experiences ... especially mistakes.

 

[OakSeeds]

Over time, there has been a lot of discussion about the value of oak trees and their role in deer harvest and maintenance of the species. I had a few ideas in a rather long post that might be of interest to folks visiting this site. Because of the length of my post I decided to place it here; folks turned off by long posts can simply ignore it.

To discredit the value of white oak trees because the acorns may not be available during hunting season is, in my opinion, a very narrow view regarding their utility for a healthy deer herd. First, white oak acorns are much better nutritional food than corn or soybeans for fall and winter deer food. In comparison to corn they have 2X the amount of carbohydrates and 10X the amount of fat; high energy foods that build up the animals’ reserves before the onset of the rut .. a time when bucks can lose up to 30% of their body weight. According to Wayne Askew - professor emeritus of the Division of Nutrition at University of Utah College of Health - "Acorns contain large amounts of protein, carbohydrates, and fats, as well as the minerals calcium, phosphorus, and potassium, and niacin.” Protein is essential for muscle development and overall growth and size. As mentioned above, carbs and fat are high-energy foods while calcium, phosphorus, and potassium are essential for antler development.
White oak acorns may be the most complete deer food that cost relatively little to develop and almost nothing to maintain once the trees come into acorn production (with the exception of releasing them from fast growing non-mast trees or other vegetation that compete for resources).
t b cont.

 

[OakSeeds]

Second, the path to white oak acorn production probably is a two-step process for most habitat developers assuming they have existing white oak trees on the property in question. The first step is to inventory existing white oak trees on a property to evaluate their history and environment. By history, I mean how often have they fruited in a 5-year cycle? Once, twice, three or more times; white oak trees have a “personality,” in terms of individual propensities with regard to fruiting. The key is to identify the “super-fruiters,” those WO trees that produce mast on a frequent basis (three or more years out of 5) and spit out large numbers of acorns. Research has shown that during high-mast years, over 75% of the acorns produced come from 20% or fewer of the WO trees in the area; the “super-fruiter” trees. Much has been written about “releasing” (TSI) mature WO trees (especially “super-fruiters” and other WOs approaching their high levels of mast production) in order to increase the total mast available on the property. If, after a 6-year run a MATURE WO tree has not produced an acorn, you might consider it, and any other similar trees, to be good candidates for logging, firewood, or mushroom-growing sticks. One could then replace that/those tree(s) with a WO tree from parents with known characteristics.
tbc ....

 

[OakSeeds]

The second step is to select replacement WO trees (assuming you have removed some non-productive trees or, you currently have no WO trees on the property, Remember the 5 characteristics of great WO habitat trees: they 1. fruit often, 2. grow rapidly, 3. produce large numbers of 4. big acorns and 5. drop later (ideally well into Oct and early November). Genetics can play a role in most of these characteristics; however numbers 2 and 4 deserve special attention and can be linked further. Promoting rapid growth of a WO might be enhanced by selecting hybrid white oaks that might be prone to exhibit “hybrid vigor.”
Growth rates of trees under 10 years of age might be stimulated by ensuring hydration (especially first 2 years), fertilization, protection from critters (including deer, mice, rabbits, voles, etc) and, elimination of competition (grass, weeds, TSI to eliminate competing canopies, etc). Acorn size might be enhanced by selecting hybrid WO trees with a known parent that produces large acorns. Since some bur oak trees shuck out large acorns, any hybrid cross involving a BO with a history of large acorns is worthy of consideration for planting. Examples might include Schuettes WO, Bebbs WO, Dream Oak, Bur Gambel WO, and hybrids involving bur oak with overcup WO, swamp chestnut WO, English WO and Live WO. In the end, you can grow them for your children (if you are more senior) or harvest them for their lumber content. It may be possible to impact the frequency of fruiting by selecting WOs with a reputation for consistent year-over-year fruiting. Several on this site have noted the propensity of English WO trees to fruit frequently; therefor, a hybrid WO with an English O parent (e.g/, bimundor = Q alba X Q robur) might be a candidate to enhance the frequency of fruiting criteria.

Merry Christmas

Quercus macrocarpa Michx

https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/nutrition-and-genetics.php

https://extension.msstate.edu/publications/publications/managing-hardwood-stands-for-acorn

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I wonder what the likelihood of natural crossing would be if any of us planted some hybrid WO near any of our existing native WO trees. I've read that some oaks will cross with other oaks more readily than other varieties - but I have no idea which ones they may be. Any ideas out there??

 

[OakSeeds]

I wonder what the likelihood of natural crossing would be if any of us planted some hybrid WO near any of our existing native WO trees. I've read that some oaks will cross with other oaks more readily than other varieties - but I have no idea which ones they may be. Any ideas out there??

said simply ... it will likely happen ... spread your different varieties out (plant multiple species and don' group them by individual species), keep them around 25 yards apart, and and play the prevailing wind to get the combinations you want.

This photo shows a bur or bebbs oak about 30 feet from a line of columnar WO trees in town. I live in a community with the "tree city" designation; consequently, lots of trees (many of which are oaks) are planted on adjoining properties where different species of oaks are located very close to one another. In the midwest, you are much more likely to discover these potential cross-fertilization hybrid opportunities as street trees (specimen trees) in more urban settings than in an older woods where bur oaks are likely to be the dominate oak species. Watch for them ... they are out there!

Great question BNB

 

[OakSeeds]

Attached are pictures of a NRO that pumps out acorns reminiscent of grape clusters. It is truly a bodacious red oak tree.
It's the most prolific red oak I,ve ever encountered.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

said simply ... it will likely happen ... spread your different varieties out (plant multiple species and don' group them by individual species), keep them around 25 yards apart, and and play the prevailing wind to get the combinations you want.

This photo shows a bur or bebbs oak about 30 feet from a line of columnar WO trees in town. I live in a community with the "tree city" designation; consequently, lots of trees (many of which are oaks) are planted on adjoining properties where different species of oaks are located very close to one another. In the midwest, you are much more likely to discover these potential cross-fertilization hybrid opportunities as street trees (specimen trees) in more urban settings than in an older woods where bur oaks are likely to be the dominate oak species. Watch for them ... they are out there!

View attachment 72224 Great question BNB

We have some BIG, OLD (100 years +) WO at camp - 3 ft. + bases. I never did the acorn germination thing before. Would acorns from those trees reproduce similar WO - or are they like apple seeds that do not reproduce the same trees??? They have been mostly open-grown WO, (2 are in the open), with a couple getting pines growing in on them for competition. We have since released a couple of those big WO from pines. Would like to regen some of those genes!!!

 

[OakSeeds]

BNB, Are the oaks you refer to only one species (e.g., Q alba -straight white oak or Q macrocarpa - bur oak). If so, next fall check the size of acorns on each tree and gather some from trees producing the largest acorns. It's even better if two large-acorn-trees are relatively close to each other in a downwind pattern. If there are not other white oaks with characteristically small acorns (different species) or another same species WO throwing small acorns, you have a pretty good chance for F1 offspring with large acorns ... unless you get a genetic throwback. Good luck; go for it, you have nothing to lose.

Some folks might enjoy this article ... FYI

https://utia.tennessee.edu/publications/wp-content/uploads/sites/269/2023/10/W126.pdf

 

[Bowsnbucks]

BNB, Are the oaks you refer to only one species (e.g., Q alba -straight white oak or Q macrocarpa - bur oak). If so, next fall check the size of acorns on each tree and gather some from trees producing the largest acorns. It's even better if two large-acorn-trees are relatively close to each other in a downwind pattern. If there are not other white oaks with characteristically small acorns (different species) or another same species WO throwing small acorns, you have a pretty good chance for F1 offspring with large acorns ... unless you get a genetic throwback. Good luck; go for it, you have nothing to lose.

Some folks might enjoy this article ... FYI

https://utia.tennessee.edu/publications/wp-content/uploads/sites/269/2023/10/W126.pdf

On our property, we have no burr oaks. The BIG oaks I was referring to are all Quercus alba - straight white oaks. They don't make huge acorn crops every year, but when they do ..... buckle up. Our native oaks around our camp area are white, northern red, chestnut (Quercus montana), and a few black oaks. Rocky ridge tops are almost all chestnut oaks, they tolerate and thrive in thin, dry, rocky, sandy mountain soils. VERY TOUGH trees, with sweet acorns like Q. alba.

Good Lord willing, I'll direct-plant some of the white oak and chestnut oak acorns this coming September with squirrel & deer caging to see what sprouts. Float-test first, or use ones with root radicle already showing they're viable acorns.

Thanks for posting the link!!

 

[OakSeeds]

Folks often want to know which white oak species would be appropriate for planting in their area. If you google/search Quercus BONAP you will get a "picture" listing of various white oak species (including some hybrids) and a U. S. map showing states where each species would likely do well. Hope you find it useful.

TAXON MAPS .... North American Plant Atlas

 

[Teeder]

Very interesting!
So many listed for my area that I've never heard of.
Thanks for posting!

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Folks often want to know which white oak species would be appropriate for planting in their area. If you google/search Quercus BONAP you will get a "picture" listing of various white oak species (including some hybrids) and a U. S. map showing states where each species would likely do well. Hope you find it useful.

TAXON MAPS .... North American Plant Atlas

Thanks for posting this info, O.S. Gonna look at the maps closely.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Thanks to your post about the BONAP maps, OakSeeds, I finally got the accurate scientific name for an oak we have on the ridgetops here in Pa. That is Quercus ilicifolia - commonly known as bear oak and scrub oak. It doesn't grow to be a tall, stately tree like a white or red oak, it's more of a gnarly, twisted oak that grows to about 18'. It makes good crops of acorns and provides cover for deer, grouse, turkeys, and other critters & birds. It thrives in poor, drier, thin mountain soils, and can re-sprout after fire. It likes lots of sun, such as after logging / clearcut activity.

Thanks again for your post about BONAP maps, OakSeeds!!!

 

[TreeDaddy]

Ok, Oakseeds

Gimme your thoughts on fertilizing oaks and the studies from U T and Craig harper on the subject

bill

 

[OakSeeds]

Ok, Oakseeds

Gimme your thoughts on fertilizing oaks and the studies from U T and Craig harper on the subject

bill

Responding to the Harper (UT) inquiry first, essentially, he is all about crown-expansion-via-crown release as preferable to fertilization. Can't quibble with the argument (reducing competition for sunlight/nutrients) ... this is one aspect of the competition issue.
I believe the fertilization question was discussed not too long ago on another thread.

Fertilizing 100 yr old white oaks is probably not necessary under normal conditions (and possibly cost prohibitive) unless your soil survey reveals a severe deficiency in a key element (N<P<K) or substantial damage was done to a large portion of the tree's root structure (fertilize only in that area). Those unfamiliar with soil tests might be interested in this ... https://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/

For newly planted and trees up to 15 years old, I fertilize! Trees less than 18 mo get a very light dose early in the spring (3-17 - St. Paddys). For sustained growth during the first 2 yrs, water, controlling competition and providing protection are way more important than fertilizer.
18 mo to 15 years get fertilized ... WHY?

the answer will take some space so bare with me if you are interested ... otherwise exit quickly.

tbc ...

 

[OakSeeds]

Oak trees and chestnut trees are acid loving trees that need more than the big 3 (N<P<K) if you want maximum acorn/chestnut output. There is the issue of micro-nutrients ....
Fertilizing Landscape Trees ED PERRY, Horticulture Farm Advisor, University of California Cooperative Extension, Stanislaus County;
GARY W. HICKMAN, Horticulture Farm Advisor, University of California Cooperative Extension, Mariposa County

INTRODUCTION
Sixteen fertilizer elements are required for plant growth. Three of the elements—carbon(C), hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O)—are provided by air (through CO) and water(H2O). In the soil, ---plant roots absorb the remaining 13 elements: nitrogen(N), phosphorous (P), potassium (K), calcium (Ca), sulfur (S), magnesium (Mg), manganese(Mn), zinc (Zn), boron (B), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), molybdenum (Mo), and chlorine (Cl). The first six are termed macronutrients because the plant uses them in large amounts. The last seven are called micronutrients because they are used in much smaller quantities. The 16 elements are considered essential because
• in the absence of any one of these elements, the plant will fail to complete its life cycle
• each element is specific and cannot be replaced or substituted for by another element
• each element has a direct effect on the plant (rather than an indirect effect, such as repelling insects that might prevent the plant from completing its life cycle)
Nutrient deficiencies, especially deficiencies in nitrogen phosphorus, and potassium, are not common in most woody landscape plants, except in palm trees, which often develop nitrogen, potassium, manganese, and magnesium deficiencies.

Woody plants growing in soil-less media in containers can often develop nutrient deficiencies. When nutrient deficiencies do occur, they cause reduced shoot growth and leaf size, leaf chlorosis, and necrosis and dieback of plant parts.

I posted on the old QDM site that I used Miracle Grow orchid foot to feed oak/chestnut trees because I bought it as a closeout for 59 cents a box at Kroger. Orchid food sells for about $4 for 8 oz; however, Miracle Grow Azelea and Rododendron food contains the EXACT same elements and fertilizer - in the same proportions/sources as Orchid food - and it sells for $6 for a 1.5 lb carton. 3 X the food for only 50% more in price. Iron, and especially in a form that can be taken up by the tree, is the element for the acid issue.

tbc ...

 

[OakSeeds]

For trees planted in final locations, mixing MG - or any other water-soluble plant foot - is time consuming and not very practical for those with lots of trees. Some folks merely throw a little triple 10/12 or 13 on the tree and move on. This does not provide the other micronutrients that ensure vigorous growth and healthy trees. I use a Stay Green product made for Azalea/Rododendron that is similar to Miracle Grow products in terms of micro-nutrient composition with a couple of notable exceptions. 1st, it is in solid form (granules) and feeds for up to 3 months (throw it on in March and forget it). 2nd, it has 3x as much iron which - for me -is important for acid-loving trees. 3rd, it does not have any copper in it (MG products do have copper); however, I am willing to make the trade off of more iron for the absence of copper, and 4th ... it does not have as much N,P,K ..... so I mix a bag of triple-12 with a bag of Stay Green azelea & rododendron food. I bought all their $10 bags at Lowes several years ago for $1@. Hope this thread gives you some ideas about feeding your acid-loving trees.

Couple more random issue that might surprise some folks ... New, young trees in their first growing season should not be fertilized until their roots have a chance to establish themselves and “settle in”.

The common wisdom on fertilizing trees has been to feed them in early spring, before active growth begins. Although there’s nothing essentially wrong with this, many experts are now suggesting that late fall, about a month after the first killing frost, is a better time. Instead of growing new foliage, trees take nutrients from the soil and apply them to vital health-enhancing functions such as disease resistance and root development. Any excess nutrients are stored in a tree’s root system and are available when needed for early spring growth. My target dates include a lighter dose around Oct. 31 and again on Mar. 17.

By all means, get your soil tested before starting a fertilization program for oak or chestnut trees.
I'll quit now; however, I'll give yiou sites for more info if you like.

 

[OakSeeds]

Attached is a recent photo (taken Sunday 3-2-2025) of 3 Crimson Spire hybrid white oak trees; they are a cross between a White Oak (alba) and a columnar English Oak. These trees will get to 6-7 ft wide and make great screening trees for non--boundary or internal property screens. These particular trees are between 10-12 yrs old and pump out large numbers of acorns similar in size and shape to the acorns of English Oaks. As the photo reveals, these trees have retained almost all of their leaves (4th yr in a row) even though we have experienced 4 high wind events in the last 40 days.