The Future

[j-bird]

I think more people need to stop, step back, and really look at some of the things they do in life. Not just in the outdoor world, but in all sorts of endeavors. Personally, I think society is going insane...literally.

SW Pa

I'll be honest - looking at what has happened I was "one of those guys". My daughter wanted to hunt so I took her. She didn't go thru the "training" that my son did that I mentioned above. She shot the gun and took the needed required class but I took a short cut with her for some reason. I need to correct that. I owe it to her, me, my son and all the other sportsmen out there to do that. She had some target panic this year and had 2 clean misses on deer and has not been the same sense. If I take her down the path I did with my son, she can develop some of those needed skills and then see if she is really prepared. To be honest I feel like an ass right now. I was so thrilled that she was interested I took it an ran and ran right past the important stuff. Time to stop, back up and do it right.

 

[Tap]

I'll be honest - looking at what has happened I was "one of those guys". My daughter wanted to hunt so I took her. She didn't go thru the "training" that my son did that I mentioned above. She shot the gun and took the needed required class but I took a short cut with her for some reason. I need to correct that. I owe it to her, me, my son and all the other sportsmen out there to do that. She had some target panic this year and had 2 clean misses on deer and has not been the same sense. If I take her down the path I did with my son, she can develop some of those needed skills and then see if she is really prepared. To be honest I feel like an ass right now. I was so thrilled that she was interested I took it an ran and ran right past the important stuff. Time to stop, back up and do it right.

That post is one of honor. I commend you. Seems to me that your kids have a pretty good father.
Don't feel like an ass, feel proud of yourself. I have a feeling that your children will grow up to be fine adults.

SW Pa

 

[j-bird]

Wow - that was sort of shocking. Funny how a forum can help in ways we never intended or expected.

I will agree that some self-reflection can be a good thing....it just helped me. Ok - sorry I sort of derailed the thread here - back to the topic at hand......

 

[Tap]

Wow - that was sort of shocking. Funny how a forum can help in ways we never intended or expected.

I will agree that some self-reflection can be a good thing....it just helped me. Ok - sorry I sort of derailed the thread here - back to the topic at hand......

Derailing the thread about the future?? How we think and how we influence the youngins is instrumental to the future of hunting (and the future of a lot of other stuff, too).

SW Pa

 

[kpj5br]

I'm going to take the devil's advocate here, just because I'm in that kind of mood, and to have a decent conversation someone has to do it.

A different view of the "good old days", and I am more than happy to provide actual documented references here:
- decimating animal populations from whitetail deer, to mule deer, to bison, to bighorn sheep, to prairie chicken, (the list of species could go on and on) from gross overhunting (mostly) and habitat loss (secondarily)
- countless wounded animals due to inaccurate tools used beyond their means (non rifled guns used out to 200 yards being the primary culprit from 1820 to 1940) and hardly sporterized military-surplus 303s and the like 1940-1960
- the advent of "driving"; running a dragnet of men through the woods, pushing deer to people on "stand" who shot at running deer emptying their tubes and mags, usually involving sending the youngest boys first who more than occasionally got shot themselves

More recently:
- the advent of planting a "food plot" and acting "holier than though" as if that's really any different from putting out a feeder, when it comes to artificially manipulating the environment to induce the movement and location of game animals.

We'll go ahead and stop there, for now.

I should say, that I personally do or have done; or have loved family members who have done and do any number of the things I mention above. I would just recommend that before we get on our high horses and condemn current acts while holding a halo over the past, we really look at the facts.

 

[WTNUT]

Okay, I will bite since I started and get paid to be an advocate. Your reference to everything from 1820-1960 predates my reference to what you call the good old days. I referred to my teens when started in the 80s and not the 1880s. Perhaps because of low whitetail numbers undoubtedly due in part to some of the reasons you suggested, hunters seemed to appreciate the animal the experience and the big picture far more than today. As someone noted (perhaps J-Bird), too many today only look to the end result. And, yes planting a food plot is far far different than simply pouring out a 100 pound bag of corn. Hunting over a food plot is far different than hunting over a bag of corn if we are talking about bowhunting which is what I do 99 percent of the time. My point is people don't spend the time and effort necessary to teach young hunters about the woods, the wildlife or what connects the two. They simply miss a lot of the big picture, and your attempt to be the devil's advocate does nothing to change that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Tap]

Okay, I will bite since I started and get paid to be an advocate. Your reference to everything from 1820-1960 predates my reference to what you call the good old days. I referred to my teens when started in the 80s and not the 1880s. Perhaps because of low whitetail numbers undoubtedly due in part to some of the reasons you suggested, hunters seemed to appreciate the animal the experience and the big picture far more than today. As someone noted (perhaps J-Bird), too many today only look to the end result. And, yes planting a food plot is far far different than simply pouring out a 100 pound bag of corn. Hunting over a food plot is far different than hunting over a bag of corn if we are talking about bowhunting which is what I do 99 percent of the time. My point is people don't spend the time and effort necessary to teach young hunters about the woods, the wildlife or what connects the two. They simply miss a lot of the big picture, and your attempt to be the devil's advocate does nothing to change that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well said. Thank you.

SW Pa

 

[willy]

J-Bird, I admire you as a person and a father. I appreciate your honesty. You have the right stuff. You and your daughter will make some great memories on detour you are taking.

 

[kpj5br]

willy, it's not "bait" that you need to bite on brother, it's simply an additional point of view.

Discussions are meant to be multiple points of view, not simply mutual admiration where everyone agrees to the same sentiment.

Just to illustrate that point: "Too many only look at the end result" (according to whom, too many out of how many, where is the data for that, etc)? Did we specifiy that we were limiting the discussion to the 1980s and only to bowhunting? I guess I missed that my apologies...

I'm not in the slightest attacking you or anyone else, trust me, I only come to these sites occasionally, I have no personal interest, it's just that when I see threads where everyone is "piling on" and patting each other on the back, that's what's called "group think" in science and business and it arrests educated thinking, so that's my point.

I personally have hunted with youth (specifically those who are currently 19 to 29 yo let's say) around the world (I have been to 23 countries and counting) who are extremely sophisticated in "the ways of the woods", some are even young guides that I have seen do incredible things with ambush placement, tracking, etc. I don't think they deserve to be lumped into the "99%" and someone has to stand up to the fact that they get a bad rap when everyone takes the negative talk route about "today's hunters".

Of course there are many true stories out there that support that some hunters don't have the ethics we aspire to - I guarantee we all know "a guy who works with my friend" who slaughters fawns by the dozen - and it feels good to tell those stories of course - but I don't accept the fact that the "the future is lost" because young people are not taught properly in mass, I give more credit to the human species than that.

 

[Turkey Creek]

I'll be honest - looking at what has happened I was "one of those guys". My daughter wanted to hunt so I took her. She didn't go thru the "training" that my son did that I mentioned above. She shot the gun and took the needed required class but I took a short cut with her for some reason. I need to correct that. I owe it to her, me, my son and all the other sportsmen out there to do that. She had some target panic this year and had 2 clean misses on deer and has not been the same sense. If I take her down the path I did with my son, she can develop some of those needed skills and then see if she is really prepared. To be honest I feel like an ass right now. I was so thrilled that she was interested I took it an ran and ran right past the important stuff. Time to stop, back up and do it right.

Personally I think your thoughts have alot to do with what our kids experience on a day to day basis in their lives and how we have as parents have tried to compensate for it. They are involved in a dozen different activities at once now. We compensate to some extent by trying to be part of their lives by simplifying what is we want to do with them. We fear if we dont they will lose interest or will not have time for the activity we want them to be part of, in this case hunting. I have yet to spend a quality weekend hunting with my daughter and she is a sophomore in college. When she was in high school it was sports almost every day of the year and all the other extra curricular activities she was involved with. Now she is a pre med major and there is no time for anything other than that.

 

[j-bird]

I t

Personally I think your thoughts have alot to do with what our kids experience on a day to day basis in their lives and how we have as parents have tried to compensate for it. They are involved in a dozen different activities at once now. We compensate to some extent by trying to be part of their lives by simplifying what is we want to do with them. We fear if we dont they will lose interest or will not have time for the activity we want them to be part of, in this case hunting. I have yet to spend a quality weekend hunting with my daughter and she is a sophomore in college. When she was in high school it was sports almost every day of the year and all the other extra curricular activities she was involved with. Now she is a pre med major and there is no time for anything other than that.

I think that may be part of it - but I still owe her more, I owe the sport more.

 

[Turkey Creek]

I t
I think that may be part of it - but I still owe her more, I owe the sport more.

Oh I am not saying it is an excuse for you, for me or anyone else for that matter. Its just a factor that contributes to how life is today as opposed to 30 years or more ago.

 

[willy]

kp, First, I'll admit you lost me on your history lesson but anyone can find data to support the history they believe, especially if one only tells parts of it, heck look at the fragmented history being taught in our schools today. But I digress, sorry. The part of your post mentioning youth inspired me to share my thoughts.

I too, as I bet most on this forum have hunted with many kids, mentored some and tried to pass on good ethics and values to the upcoming generation. I taught hunter ed for over a decade. What I found in my experiences were that the people who have the most impact on youth coming into the hunting world are the ones who they spend their time with. Concerning hunting, most of those that were brought up in the tradition of unethical and illegal hunting/poaching practices continued in those footsteps and those who's outings were ethical and legal continued those. Unfortunately most of those who carried on the unethical and illegal hunting/poaching practices were kids who really didn't do much at school and had lots of time to get outdoors with their "mentors".

Of the kids who I mentored and/or taught in hunter ed, the vast majority ended up dropping out of the hunter ranks. Many simply because they didn't have family/friends that went much besides the times I took them and/or didn't have places to go. The largest percentage who didn't continue in the hunting ranks were kids who took hunter ed but were so involved in school/extracurricular activities that they really never had much time to go out on weekends which was supposedly their time off. They might have wanted to sleep in or some had jobs on weekends or school activities that took that time opportunity away. That time of their lives is when the fire can be fanned or doused. Some were lucky enough to have family and friends to get them out and light their fire for the rest of their lives.

As turkey creek implied in his above post, in today's society a lot is packed into everyday for kids and parents. Sometimes shortcuts are taken to get the kids an opportunity to experience as much as they can in their youth before they are "grown up" and the opportunities for child and parent experiences/memories are lost.

I totally understand the predicament today's parents and youth are in. Unfortunately I don't see it changing for the positive anytime soon. I applaud parents who can juggle all that daily life throws at them, the activities that pull their kids away, and still get their kids outdoors.

My dad just called me to discuss the article that Mr. Wensel wrote that is referenced to earlier in this thread. I had emailed it to him about an hour earlier. It was a good conversation and brought up some good memories for both of us. My wish is that all kids and their parents/family get an opportunity to make ones of their own like my Dad and I have.

 

[John-W-WI]

willy, it's not "bait" that you need to bite on brother, it's simply an additional point of view.

Discussions are meant to be multiple points of view, not simply mutual admiration where everyone agrees to the same sentiment.

Just to illustrate that point: "Too many only look at the end result" (according to whom, too many out of how many, where is the data for that, etc)? Did we specifiy that we were limiting the discussion to the 1980s and only to bowhunting? I guess I missed that my apologies...

I'm not in the slightest attacking you or anyone else, trust me, I only come to these sites occasionally, I have no personal interest, it's just that when I see threads where everyone is "piling on" and patting each other on the back, that's what's called "group think" in science and business and it arrests educated thinking, so that's my point.

I personally have hunted with youth (specifically those who are currently 19 to 29 yo let's say) around the world (I have been to 23 countries and counting) who are extremely sophisticated in "the ways of the woods", some are even young guides that I have seen do incredible things with ambush placement, tracking, etc. I don't think they deserve to be lumped into the "99%" and someone has to stand up to the fact that they get a bad rap when everyone takes the negative talk route about "today's hunters".

Of course there are many true stories out there that support that some hunters don't have the ethics we aspire to - I guarantee we all know "a guy who works with my friend" who slaughters fawns by the dozen - and it feels good to tell those stories of course - but I don't accept the fact that the "the future is lost" because young people are not taught properly in mass, I give more credit to the human species than that.

Can I go out on a limb here and say you are an attorney of some kind? I'm not attacking either, just an observation.

 

[Bill]

Wow - that was sort of shocking. Funny how a forum can help in ways we never intended or expected.

I will agree that some self-reflection can be a good thing....it just helped me. Ok - sorry I sort of derailed the thread here - back to the topic at hand......

J-bird,
Don't read so much into it as to think you're wrong. As I believe about many things, all we are called to do is plant a seed. You've done that.

I'm as guilty as any of putting my kid in the best stand possible because I wanted him to connect. If it gets in the veins they'll figure it out. At 17 with 2 bucks and a few does under my belt I felt I learned all I could from my mentor. And I did.

After that I spent countless hours crawling through the woods. I sat in tree stands in June. my first food plot was in 1982 all by my self at 17. I took a bucket of rye from my neighbors farm and spread it on a dry shallow pond in the woods. At 18 I talked my hunting buddy into passing anything but an 8 pointer. I was in awe the first time I let an 8 walk right under me. Previously I thought they were so smart. When not trying to kill it, the cluelessness of it left me in wonder.

Then came college, marriage, kids and life. I gave up deer hunting and could have been a statistic. but finally returned and came full circle.

Ive had my youngest son in fishing boats, duck boats and tree stands. Never beat him up about the reasons why we were at those places that produced.

Just planted the seed.

If the seed sprouts, he'll know more about what he's chasing just like we know more (or different) than those who taught us.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Reference Post # 17,18,19 - I've long read the Wensel brothers writings and been to some seminars. I believe they are the BEST bowhunters in the country - bar none - and I'd put my money on those 2 against anyone in a fair-chase whitetail hunt. I think along much the same lines as they do when it comes to hunting. ( I might add - they have written of their admiration for the Benoit family of Maine & their 1-on-1 stalking methods of hunting deer ). Put the " T.V. experts " in the woods - unfamiliar locations - with the Wensels or the Benoits and see who kills the deer !!! I like their ethics.

 

[kpj5br]

Can I go out on a limb here and say you are an attorney of some kind? I'm not attacking either, just an observation.

It's a nice compliment, but no, I am just a business guy who runs a large business buried within a larger holding company :)

What I've been fortunate to learn through over 20 years in business though, and especially recruiting countless young people, is that "the future" is self-fulfilling. If lots of people claim doom and gloom, and "it won't change" - guaranteed that prophecy will be fulfilled. If lots of people are optimistic and believe the future can be bright, guaranteed that prophecy will be fulfilled as well. I choose the latter in life, really no matter what the topic is. Because if we choose the former, then really what's the point?